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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/30/2014
WEDNESDAY, NOV 4, 2009  |  26 comments
Not All Evangelicals and Catholics Together
An InterVarsity Christian Fellowship chapter can look very different in the fall than it did the previous spring. But the chapter at George Washington University (GWU) in the nation's capital is dealing with change of a more uncomfortable kind than absent graduates and incoming freshmen.

Shortly before students left for summer vacation, the D.C. chapter split when all ten student leaders resigned to form a new campus ministry called University Christian Fellowship. More than half of the chapter's roughly 100 students joined them. At issue was student leaders' worry that the national ministry confuses the gospel by cooperating with Roman Catholics, and has a mission statement that Catholics could sign without violating church teaching on the doctrine of justification—how sinners are declared righteous before God. ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 26 user comment(s)
News Item11/8/09 12:16 AM
savedbygrace | Harrisburg, PA  Find all comments by savedbygrace
GG,

The eternal, Lord God, Almighty, has made man in His image and given him the creation mandate of dominion over all of creation and in a sense is crowned with glory and majesty. However, God the eternal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient, HIS NAME ALONE is majestic and deserves all glory and honor.

"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."
Revelation 4:11

As Michael said, worship the Lamb and not the Lady!!!

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."
Revelation 5:13

Mary, does not desire worship today and never has. She would not want people to make idols of her to worship her like foolish Nebuchadnezzar had made of himself, who having his reason restored gave praise and honor to God the Most High, the King of heaven
Daniel 4:34,35

JOHN 3:36

26

News Item11/7/09 3:41 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
GG wrote:
MH:I can't speak for all Catholics really.

The relationship between Catholics, Jesus and Mary is very complex.

GG
Thanks for the post back. And I think you've done very well for speaking for Catholics.

Basically in my words you've told me Catholics suppose they are honoring Christ with their devotion to "Mary".

Yet I think you might honestly admit you do not find or will not find in Scripture Jesus Himself giving the honor to His mother Catholic people give to the one they call "
"Our Lady", nor will you find the apostles and those in the early church giving Mary the devotion the Catholic Church gives "The Queen of Heaven."

Could it be there a simplicity in the faith God Himself gives His redeemed born again children, something the early Church clearly understood that kept them from giving Mary the honor the Roman Catholic Church does, something that Catholic Church today lacks and does not understand and so has made "The relationship between Catholics, Jesus and Mary is very complex."

25

News Item11/7/09 10:40 AM
June  Find all comments by June
GG,

Mary bore witness of her need of a Saviour when she said
“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” (Luke 1:46-47)
yet Rome teaches that she was without sin. This is heresey.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
508 “From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. “Full of grace,” Mary is “the most excellent fruit of redemption” (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life.”

The Scriptures reveal that Christ alone is the sinless One,
Hebrews 4:15
“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
Hebrews 7:26
“For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;”
II Cor. 5:21
“For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness og God in him.”

It is Christ who sits at the "right hand of God" to make intercession for His people and not Mary. (Heb. 7:25; Rom. 8:34)

24

News Item11/7/09 9:26 AM
GG  Find all comments by GG
MH:I can't speak for all Catholics really. My impression is that most people don't give it much thought until a Protestant friend mentions it. The relationship between Catholics, Jesus and Mary is very complex. There is no intent to worship Mary, there is only the need to love her as our Mother and as someone who intercedes between us and Jesus. The bible says that Jesus is the mediator between man and God the Father, and this we believe. But, Mary is a symbol of the Church, the tool that God used to bring our salvation, the perfect example of faith. She is very dear and very important to the Catholic culture in ways that you would not understand nor appreciate. At the same time Jesus is our Savior, our Lord, and our God. He is absolutely indispensible to our worship. Do the Popes seem to go to far in their veneration of Mary? Yes they go too far for my taste, but the point is that they do well to honor her even if too intensely, while y'all...fearing Catholic contamination, honor her not at all. Jesus is like the Sun and Mary is like the Moon. Jesus is the source of light and life. Mary is only a reflection, dependent upon an always pointing back to the Sun. I can love the Sun during the day, and love the Moon at night, but the Sun is the greater light. But you won't understand
23

News Item11/7/09 4:26 AM
savedbygrace | Harrisburg, PA  Find all comments by savedbygrace
The gaping divide is a gorge Mr. George.
I always believed his teaching on church history compromised with Rome. Dr. Tim falsely asserts that we have a common Lord and a common grace with the Romans and that accordingly we should refer to each other as, brother's and sister's in Jesus Christ! What???

John Owen on justification resembles N.T. Wright! What???

Intervarsity Staff took students to a Mass! What???

I wonder where these liberal Amer. Presbyterians of the 1800,s who considered recognizing Rome's baptism are today?

Mr. Alec Hill, you might try:
"By faith alone, In Jesus Christ alone."
To be honest, it is watered-down, if any Roman is not offended and does not feel a need to leave Rome and her false teaching on justification.

GG,
You have been dreaming with your scheming. There is no proof for Rome's false claim of 2,000 years. Even if there were longevity does not mean truth. The true church lived alongside many cults and false beliefs.

22

News Item11/6/09 9:56 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
GG wrote:
No good Catholic worships Mary.
GG
Hi! Haven't exchanged posts in a while with you BUT surely you miss the obvious.

Think about it. Shrines in their back yards. Adorning statues of her with jewels, gold, and clothing, even a crown (I've go the picture...that would be John Paul II placing a crown on the head of "Mary" and the little baby "jesus" the lady of somewhere in Cuba).

Fervent prayer to her, Yes! multiple Rosaries. Pilgramages to sites of "her" apparitions.

Now from devote Catholics with shrines in their back yards all the way up to the late John Paul II would you say they weren't good Catholics?

GG, bottom line in all this is that the honor, adoration, prayers, songs sang to, emotional attachment, given to this "Mary" are on par or even exceed what "good Catholics" give to God and you want me to believe Catholics don't worship Mary that is rich.

WHY do they do this???
Could it be GG the reality is that for "good Catholics" the Lord Jesus Christ as He truly is fails to be good enough for them so they have to have this woman who is supposedly His mother?

21

News Item11/6/09 8:23 PM
GG  Find all comments by GG
Not so Neil and frankly this is the least of my wories, but you made the statement. Your comments made insinuations about me and my ability to understand your posts, my mental abilities and my mental maturity. Big deal!

I said, "But, what fool you people are". I meant to say, "But what fools you people are". The reference to being "stupid" has to do with the "fools", which is not just you, but any SA Fundi who can't grasp who their real enemies are. When you insinuated that giving me more detail would "serve no purpose", thought I would follow suit with the "mental workout" comment. Strickly "Tit for Tat". Do I really need a "license to practice telepathic psychology".

You are a Christian and yet I believe your understanding is incomplete and sometimes heretical. Blaming you is pointless, rather I blame those who knew the truth, yet taught lies...The Reformers. My belief is that Jesus won't count off points for being wrong about some truths. In the fullness of time Christ will bring you where he wants you. Excommunication is not "condemming to Hell" but excluding a sinner from the saving help of the Catholic Church, not a problem for a guy like you I trust? The Council of Trent happened in a period of mutual animosity. But, you are free to hate us for a myriad of reasons.

20

News Item11/6/09 7:55 PM
Former Catholic saved by grace  Find all comments by Former Catholic saved by grace
Last first: I have studied many of the various catechisms that have been put out by the Roman Catholic Church over the centuries. It is not correct to say that Roman Catholics have faith in God only, since they claim that Tradition (with a capital "T") is equal in authority to the Bible.

At its base, this is putting faith in the teachings of uninspired men, rather than in the Holy Spirit who co-authored the Bible with the inspired men he chose. From this basic error spring all the other errors of the RCC, including Mariolatry. (As to the statement about 'no good Catholic worships Mary,' you must count most parish priests, monks, bishops and popes in that crowd, which leaves precious few of you, if true.)

As to the hordes of leftists being the enemies of Christians, this is false on its face:

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12

The hordes of leftists are lost souls who desperately need to hear the gospel clearly preached, something the Roman Catholic church has not only not done, but has opposed at every step for centuries.

Jesus loves you, GG.

19

News Item11/6/09 7:36 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Those are examples of my abusing your posts, GG, not your person. Words & thoughts are not persons. OTOH, you insulted me by calling me stupid, a fool, and saying I need a "mental workout." Do you have a license to practice telepathic psychology?

If I hold to a heresy, then how can I be part of the "entire Church of Christ?" The RCC excommunicates people like that, & calls my kind of church "separated brethren," which doesn't sound like part of the whole. You're trying to have it both ways.

Anyone who consigns me to Hell is my enemy, be he a Progressive Democrat, a Fundamental Baptist, or a pope. Rome has not retracted the Trent Decrees, or much else it said, for it claims to be "irreformable." Hence what Rome said in the 16th century is still pertinent. Surely no Roman Catholic could claim otherwise. Or does faith has nothing to do with logic?

18

News Item11/6/09 6:58 PM
GG  Find all comments by GG
Quote of the Day: "personal abuse is no substitute for thoughtful argumentation."

Neil:Re your recent comments: "...such a careless reading...","...informing you in more detail would serve no purpose...","...avoid arguing like a thwarted toddler...". What was that about abuse again?

I do agree that the Doctrine of "Justification by Faith Alone" is a heresy and if you understood the truth but held to a heresy the result would, without the Grace of God, be Hell. My "Whining", as you call it, has to do with how the entire Church of Christ, in all it's parts, confronts it's enemies in the 21st century. Notice, this isn't the 16th Century any more, nor should we be acting toward each other as if it were. The Pope and I are not your enemies, Speaker Pelosi, Harry Reid, Obama, and the hords of Leftist's are. You don't want to be involved with us...well I for one, don't want you either, but your enemies are mine and mine are yours....we should act together but stay apart, in order to insure our mutual survival...end of story. I have every right as a Child of God and as a living being to dissent from any teaching.

FCSBG: I get really tired of answering the many erronious notion about Catholicism. We have faith in God only. No good Catholic worships Mary. To be continued....

17

News Item11/6/09 4:43 PM
just a thought  Find all comments by just a thought
GG, where is your scriptural proof that early Christianity evolved into Catholicism as we know it today? Where does the Lord command us to all be 'Roman Catholics'? It is the erroneous teachings of the RCC that have led millions astray. The word 'church' is not a reference to one particular denomination, it is ekklesia-'called out ones'. The church of Jesus Christ, which He Himself heads {NOT Peter-'And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him[that is, CHRIST] to be the head over all things to the church'-Ephesians 1:22}, is made up of born from above believers which come from all walks of life.
Salvation is solely by God's grace; faith is a gift of God which only He can give...you can't say you have faith in Christ unless God gifts you with that faith {Ephesians 2:8,9}. Faith in a man-made tradition and religion is not a saving faith.
"Repent, and believe in the Gospel"
You can do nothing to earn favor with God, no work, no water baptism, no sacrament will save you...G-R-A-C-E is what saves a lost sinner.
16

News Item11/6/09 12:45 PM
Former Catholic saved by grace  Find all comments by Former Catholic saved by grace
GG wrote:
"...Christians share 0% of the Roman Catholic faith and 0% of their goals... whereas some lesser percentage..."
MyResp: Not only confused logically, but all together, totally, and Galactically wrong.
Let me say it plainer, then. Roman Catholicism places its faith in Jesus plus other things, whereas the faith of Biblical Christianity is placed solely in Jesus.

As a practical matter, the other things that Catholics trust in vary from individual to individual; some worship Mary through the rosary, some emphasize praying to dead saints, some look to the pope or some priest, some try to obey the Law. Rome really doesn't care, as long as they do not put their faith solely in Christ's gracious work. Once a person does that, they find they are no longer bound by the decrees of robed men, and the whole superstructure of the Roman Catholic Church is threatened.

The point is that the faith of a true Roman Catholic is always and necessarily in something other than who Jesus is and what He accomplished on the cross. If they are trusting only in that, they are heretics in Rome's view. (See Neil's original point below re: the Council of Trent.)

Let me ask you this, GG: Are you certain that you will go to heaven when you die?

15

News Item11/6/09 10:58 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
GG, re your 1st question to me, I was addressing Protestant declension on justification by faith alone, not "imitating Rome" in general, so given such a careless reading of my post, I suspect informing you in more detail would serve no purpose. Your 2nd question is loaded, so it is not worthy of an answer.

More to the purpose, you ignored the Council of Trent decree I cited - do you agree that the doctrine of justification by faith alone (vs. faith + works) is a damnable heresy or not? If it is, then why the whining about not joining hands against "infidels," since I am one myself? And if not, then please explain what right you have to dissent from the Teaching Magisterium of "Mother Church."

Remember, personal abuse is no substitute for thoughtful argumentation.

14

News Item11/6/09 10:47 AM
June  Find all comments by June
GG said:
"Jesus states that the "Gates of Hell shall not prevail" against his Church."
*********
I would commend to your reading an article written by Richard Bennett, former Roman Catholic priest, entitled 'Identifying the Early Church'
Link: http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles/Identifying_the_Early_Church.pdf
in which he carefully shows out of Scripture that the “early church” . . the apostolic era church, which is representative of the true church of Christ does not in any way resemble the Roman Catholic church.

Excerpt:
“The stark reality of the facts of history of the true church permeated with the Gospel of God’s grace in doctrine and practice utterly voids the papal assertion of an historical continuity between the early believers and the papal church via their dogma of apostolic succession. Rather the Roman Catholic Church is the proven schismatic from the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

This then is the church of which Christ said ". . . I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt.16:18)

May the Lord be pleased to add you to HIS CHURCH.

"And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." (Acts 2:47)

In Christian love

13

News Item11/6/09 10:27 AM
GG  Find all comments by GG
June: Your appeal to "God's Word" fails to take into consideration your peculiar "Protestant Interpretation" of those words. Jesus states that the "Gates of Hell shall not prevail" against his Church. If you are correct, then Jesus is mistaken or a liar, since early Christianity, which quickly evolved into Catholicism, would have had to succum to the Devil in order for your bunch to rise to the fore.
12

News Item11/6/09 10:19 AM
June  Find all comments by June
GG said:
“Since Catholicism and G. Orthodoxy precede Fundamentalist Christianity by well over 1500 years, I should think that it would be apparent to anyone but the most blind or fanatic Troglodyte, that if any Gospel is to name the "Other Gospel" it would be yours.”
**********
Nothwithstanding your outrageous claims to the contrary, God's Word, wherein He is pleased to reveal the Gospel of God's free & sovereign grace by faith in our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ, predates the existence of the Roman Catholic church & the false gospel . . *“another gospel” which she promotes.

*Galatians 1:6-7
"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel.
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."

Excerpt: “Salvation: God's Graciousness in Christ, and the Roman Catholic Doctrine of Justification”
by R. Bennett, former R.C. Priest

“The Roman Catholic Church does not rest satisfied with Christ alone, her process program in fact nullifies the grace of God (Gal. 5:4) What is most serious, the very truth of the Gospel is thus made void. The process system is a hopeless practice born of a blasphemous idea. Rather, “It is God that justifies.” (Rom. 8:33)”

11

News Item11/6/09 9:34 AM
GG  Find all comments by GG
Neil: How dare I disagree with your highly vaunted, but vacuous logic, but...please...explain to me, which parts of my post that you are unable to grasp. After reading your response, perhaps you could use a mental work-out. To answer your question flatly---NO! Since when did Protestantism imitate Catholicism or have I dreamed the last 500 years of focused hatred? Please explain how Atheism, Secular Humanism, Paganism, and Islam can be seen as the errant step-children of the Mother of Christianity and Western Civilization? And please no fairy tales.

"...Christians share 0% of the Roman Catholic faith and 0% of their goals... whereas some lesser percentage..."

MyResp: Not only confused logically, but all together, totally, and Galactically wrong.

June: Since Catholicism and G. Orthodoxy precede Fundamentalist Christianity by well over 1500 years, I should think that it would be apparent to anyone but the most blind or fanatic Troglodyte, that if any Gospel is to name the "Other Gospel" it would be yours. There is no Catholic Gospel of "Works Salvation" only the Gospel of "Obedience" to the Lords Commands.

10

News Item11/5/09 10:00 PM
Tony Lopez-Cisneros  Find all comments by Tony Lopez-Cisneros
Former (Roman) Catholic saved by grace wrote:
Ah, but Christians share 0% of the Roman Catholic faith and 0% of their goals, since 100% of a Christian's faith is in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ, and a Christian's goals are to honor the Father by faith in Him, whereas some lesser percentage of a true Roman Catholic's faith and goals are in Christ's person, work and honor, with the remainder going to their own works, our Lord's earthly mother, clerics, bishops, cardinals, popes, Zen meditation techniques, political maneuvering, and so on. Belief in ritual and attachment to some earthly organization kills as effectively as unbelief.
AMEN ! "Former (Roman) Catholic saved by grace" I Most Heartily & 100% Authorized Biblically, Holy-Spiritually, Psychologically & Even Physically CONCUR !

As A Former Roman "Catholic" Saved ONLY By The The Authorized Holy Bible (That Is, In English: The KJV-B), The Authorized Holy Blood (That Is, The Holy BLOOD Of The LORD Jesus Christ) & The Authorized Blessed Hope (That Is, The Blessed Pre-Tribulation/Millenial RAPTURE Of Christ's TRUE Church-Body-Bride-Saints-Believers-Disciples-Assembly Of GOD According To 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) !

"CANON IX" Is Why Trentian-Roman-"Catholicism" IS SATANIC-VATICANISM !

9

News Item11/5/09 1:28 PM
June  Find all comments by June
The R.C. Gospel of works is that very gospel referred to in God's Word as “another gospel”, Galatians 1:6-7. Christian unity can never be achieved at the expense of TRUTH. The false gospel of Rome utterly contradicts the glorious Gospel of the free & sovereign grace of our Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ revealed in God's unalterable Word. The doctrinal truth of justification by faith in the work & merit of Christ's perfect work of righteousness, and that imputed to a sinner by grace through faith cannot be polluted by the introduction of the imagined works or merit of sinful man.

Galatians 2:16
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Romans 3:24-26
“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

8

News Item11/5/09 12:34 PM
Former Catholic saved by grace  Find all comments by Former Catholic saved by grace
GG wrote:
You don't have to agree with beliefs or even have Catholic friends...just quit being stupid and rally with the people who share 90% of your faith and 100% of your goals.
Ah, but Christians share 0% of the Roman Catholic faith and 0% of their goals, since 100% of a Christian's faith is in the person and finished work of Jesus Christ, and a Christian's goals are to honor the Father by faith in Him, whereas some lesser percentage of a true Roman Catholic's faith and goals are in Christ's person, work and honor, with the remainder going to their own works, our Lord's earthly mother, clerics, bishops, cardinals, popes, Zen meditation techniques, political maneuvering, and so on.

Belief in ritual and attachment to some earthly organization kills as effectively as unbelief.

7
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