Snippet wrote: If so then beware of sins dominion over you.
Romans 6:11-18 KJV Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made FREE from SIN, ye became the SERVANTS of RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Dear Snippet, sin does NOT have dominion over a saint. Whoever told you that? We are delivered by the Mighty Christ from the power of sin. Receive Paul's instruction above.
John UK wrote: You didn't like me saying that I am responsible for my own failures and sins, rather it is some 'intangible' thing called 'sin' which is lurking within me somewhere, even though I am converted and have the holy presence of God dwelling within me.
You appear to misread or misconstrue Romans 7. I take it from your statement above that you consider yourself superior to sin? and it's effects?
If so then beware of sins dominion over you.
The point Paul makes is a warning of how powerful sin remains in the converted believer. Obviously he takes this from his own experience as a Christian.
John. Do not underestimate sin it's power and effects.
Flame of the wick wrote: CL Why do you try to purloin so much for the mortal-sinner? Why not give all the glory to God and His Son? Can you not perceive how UNworthy man is? Grace is of God and from God and is only Godly favor and source. Is it part of vanity that you should claim to have the same grace as God for salvation purposes?
Dear FOTW:
How is it that you have such a LOW view of the pinnacle of God's creation, namely, man and his redemption?
Would you have so little appreciation of Michelangelo's "David" that you would exalt the artist/sculptor but shun his masterpiece?
How do you Glorify God by thinking of His creation with contempt?
It was His plan to redeem fallen man. The work itself is to be valued, and should leave us in awe. That's what it means to Glorify God.
How could one love the Father and not love His creation, and the one created in His Image?
I think you need to re-think your view of man. God thought enough of His creation to put it on display.
While it may appear humble to lightly esteem what God highly esteems, namely those whom He has chosen to redeem from AMONG His creation, it is a false humility. It does not Glorify God at all to have such a low opinion of God's masterpiece.
Jim Lincoln wrote: Sin isn't the presence of something but the absence of God in a person's life.
Paul to the Romans apparently disagrees
20 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Sin isn't the presence of something but the absence of God in a person's life.
Gil Rugh said or, wrote: Changing behavior does nothing if you haven't dealt with the source of the problem - a depraved heart and a corrupted mind. The only means of real change, freedom from sin and the disasterous deeds of the flesh is to repent and trust in Christ's person and work.
The solution to sin isn't to try to develop programs to solve individual's or the world's problems.
The ministry God has given to His people and His church is to proclaim Christ. The gospel of Christ is the solution for every person's problems and condition.
Candle Lit wrote: I maintain that the Father of Grace, has children of grace who reflect that grace, as well as mercy, and love.
CL Why do you try to purloin so much for the mortal-sinner? Why not give all the glory to God and His Son? Can you not perceive how UNworthy man is? Grace is of God and from God and is only Godly favor and source. Is it part of vanity that you should claim to have the same grace as God for salvation purposes?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Why not instead...
9 Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Snippet wrote: #1] 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. #2] And again 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1John 1.
I think I see what you are about. Thank you. You didn't like me saying that I am responsible for my own failures and sins, rather it is some 'intangible' thing called 'sin' which is lurking within me somewhere, even though I am converted and have the holy presence of God dwelling within me.
Okay, well it is true that God, in his grace, and being desirous of our humility, does leave a remnant of sin within, to be a continual reminder of our frailty and proneness to wander without the Spirit's enabling. Yes, it is true, as is also the devil's work in playing upon this to our detriment, making us feel unworthy, unhappy, and grieving over every slight sin or failure. The Spirit convicts to bless, the devil convicts to condemn, and I will take the Spirit every time.
John UK wrote: #1] You think to say that Christians in their flesh serve the law of sin? #2] That they are not delivered from the power of sin?
#1] 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
#2] 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
And again 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1John 1.
John UK wrote: This war between the flesh and the Spirit does not have a predestinated outcome; no, it is my responsibility and mine alone.
What??? The "war" between the flesh and the Spirit does NOT have a predestinated outcome? Huh? Are you sure about that?
What about Romans 8:29? (which reads): "For whom He did foreknow, He also did PREDESTINATE TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON ..."
That pretty much looks like a predestinated outcome to me! But paradoxically, you are indeed responsible -- you must run the race, you must fight the good fight, you must persevere to the end. [cf. Phil 2:13 & Gal 2:20] It's predestinated that you do so.
Snippet wrote: Alternatively 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7. Well John UK; Thats what the Bible says anyway!
Good ol' Snippet
You think to say that Christians in their flesh serve the law of sin? That they are not delivered from the power of sin? I trow not.
However, I am open to being rebuked, reproved, exhorted, if my understanding is that of a turnip.
John UK wrote: This war between the flesh and the Spirit does not have a predestinated outcome; no, it is my responsibility and mine alone.
Alternatively
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7.
postulator wrote: E'v'nin John So what have we got ere mate? "WHEN" the Holy Spirit fills John = he is "full" of grace. No probs there. But John, at some point in time, "grieves" the Spirit. And at this time he is "reduced" in the amount(?) or effect(?) of grace? So John, is this where the Spirit left? or didn't work the grace quite so ardently? Surely that (sin) event wasn't your fault (responsibility) then John.
Ev'nin postulator me ol' mate
Well, I'm not sure I get your drift, brother. However, I'll attempt to answer based on the general tenor of your post.
The Spirit is a Person, therefore he indwells us or not. As a believer, I am indwelt, and any good fruit forthcoming is as a result of such indwelling. (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit.) In Stephen's case, his love and concern for the guilt of his persecutors issued forth in a prayer: "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge."
But the Spirit does not always have free reign in my life. For reasons within my control, I lapse, and thereby the battle for my heart's affection is lost, albeit temporarily.
This war between the flesh and the Spirit does not have a predestinated outcome; no, it is my responsibility and mine alone.
Syncretistic /Syn`cre·tis´tic/ (?), a. 1. Pertaining to, or characterized by, syncretism; as, a syncretistic mixture of the service of Jehovah and the worship of idols. 2. Of or pertaining to Syncretists.
There really is no question about Hail Mary?. John do you have some beads to finger also, (Just like the Muslims I would add.)
John UK wrote: When his Spirit fills me, I am full of grace, and when I grieve him, I am not so gracious. But it is my responsibility.
E'v'nin John So what have we got ere mate?
"WHEN" the Holy Spirit fills John = he is "full" of grace. No probs there.
But John, at some point in time, "grieves" the Spirit. And at this time he is "reduced" in the amount(?) or effect(?) of grace?
So John, is this where the Spirit left? or didn't work the grace quite so ardently? Surely that (sin) event wasn't your fault (responsibility) then John.
Candle Lit wrote: Thank you, John, for bearing witness of that Truth, and encouraging your brothers and sisters in the Lord.
And I thank you, CandleLit, for not pointing out a mistake I've just noticed in my own post. Truly you are gracious.
Here is what I meant to say, just in case 'they' come after me.
It also illustrates to me what my state is before God. My standing 'in Christ' is never changed eternally, because the 'gifts and calling of God are without repentance'. But my *state* varies according to my own dilligence or lack of it. I can so grieve or quench the Spirit within me, that my character loses its godly edge, and I would not be able to act or pray as Stephen did.
John UK wrote: This account of Stephen's death at the hand of his persecutors is a continual reminder to me of the attitude God expects of all his people. It is an illustration of genuine Christianity, which is powerful, as opposed to 'religious' Christianity which is powerless. It also illustrates to me what my state is before God. My standing 'in Christ' is never changed eternally, because the 'gifts and calling of God are without repentance'. But my standing varies according to my own dilligence or lack of it. I can so grieve or quench the Spirit within me, that my character loses its godly edge, and I would not be able to act or pray as Stephen did. What am I saying? I claim that God has given all his people everything needful for a godly life, especially the Spirit. When his Spirit fills me, I am full of grace, and when I grieve him, I am not so gracious. But it is my responsibility.
This post is soooo full of Truth.
Thank you, John, for bearing witness of that Truth, and encouraging your brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Candle Lit wrote: In the account of Stephen in Acts, we read that he is "full of the Holy Ghost." The account further states that Stephen is praying for those who are stoning him. This is an account that parallels our Saviour's death on the cross and His prayer for forgiveness from the Father for those who are responsible for His death. This is GRACE.
This account of Stephen's death at the hand of his persecutors is a continual reminder to me of the attitude God expects of all his people. It is an illustration of genuine Christianity, which is powerful, as opposed to 'religious' Christianity which is powerless.
It also illustrates to me what my state is before God. My standing 'in Christ' is never changed eternally, because the 'gifts and calling of God are without repentance'. But my standing varies according to my own dilligence or lack of it. I can so grieve or quench the Spirit within me, that my character loses its godly edge, and I would not be able to act or pray as Stephen did.
What am I saying? I claim that God has given all his people everything needful for a godly life, especially the Spirit. When his Spirit fills me, I am full of grace, and when I grieve him, I am not so gracious. But it is my responsibility.
Xaris wrote: "Grace is eternal (II Tim. 1:9), immutable (Rom. 11:29), sovereign (Rom. 9:11-24), effectual (Eph. 2:8-9; John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65), and destroys all room for human boasting (I Cor. 1:29-31; 4:7). It means that the Triune God gets all the praise, honor, and glory for our salvation: The Father for planning it, the Son for purchasing it, and the Holy Spirit for applying and uniting us to it (Eph. 1:2-14). Christ is not only efficient, but is alone sufficient for salvation (Heb 9:12; 10:10) such that our own merit or works righteousness can do nothing to either attain or maintain our justification. The assistance of grace does not even depend on the humility or obedience of . . .
No dispute there. I will add that our Heavenly Father has the attributes of Omnipresence, Omnipotence, and Omniscience, which we will never have, but, as His children, born of His Spirit, we do exhibit those attributes that give testimony of one born of the Spirit, one being Grace.
Children look like their Father, and have a special relationship that the world does not know.
I maintain that the Father of Grace, has children of grace who reflect that grace, as well as mercy, and love.
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Rev. John Greer | 10/18/2009
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