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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  10/25/2014
FRIDAY, MAY 23, 2008  |  21 comments
Liberty University officials criticize ‘Evangelical Manifesto’
A section that has drawn particular ire from Liberty officials states that neither the religious right nor religious left should “politicize faith.” In that case, Christians become “useful idiots” for one political party or another, it states, and beliefs become weapons for political interests.

Ergun Caner, president of the Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, said the manifesto “muddies the water” when it comes to being an evangelical.

Caner, a former Muslim who converted in 1982, defines the term as “pro-life, pro-family” and having solely Christian beliefs. ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 21 user comment(s)
News Item5/26/08 8:39 PM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
Mike wrote:
Not trying to prove my belief. Trying to show what's missing in yours, which says NONE of the preordained elect, who have a *God-ordained date* with repentance can EVER perish. Therefore God has no need of longsuffering with THEM. Therefore 2Pet.3:9 cannot be speaking of THEM. How does 2Pet.2:7 change this?
Here, lets reason, with your reasoning...

Do you believe that God is omniscient? Do you believe that God knows beforehand who will be saved? Even an Arminian believes that God knows who will respond to the Gospel. If God is outside of time, and He knows who will come to faith, why would He need to be longsuffering towards them? And if God knows who won't respond to the gospel, what is the point of being longsuffering towards them? And what kind of God, when He knows that someone will not respond to the gospel, works the Arminian prevenient grace in their hearts, and then punish them for not adequately handling the knowledge given them?

21

News Item5/26/08 7:06 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
rogerant wrote:
The word in the Greek (5100)that is translated as "some" is the same word that is translated "any". The word does not prove that it includes every person on the world as you are using it.
Peter is writing to those who need to understand that God is able to deliver the elect from judgement and false teachers. He uses Lot and Noah as examples. He is teaching those concerned about these saints to be "patient" just as God is.
2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.
You need to read the entire book of 2 Peter in context. Do not take one verse that seems to prove you belief and use it by itself as a prooftext.
Not trying to prove my belief. Trying to show what's missing in yours, which says NONE of the preordained elect, who have a *God-ordained date* with repentance can EVER perish. Therefore God has no need of longsuffering with THEM. Therefore 2Pet.3:9 cannot be speaking of THEM. How does 2Pet.2:7 change this?
20

News Item5/26/08 3:25 PM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
Mike wrote:
I am sorry, too. There's no "some" in v8.
Your making "any" mean "some" where "any" is used changes nothing.
In what way then would the Lord be longsuffering to the elect?
The word in the Greek (5100)that is translated as "some" is the same word that is translated "any". The word does not prove that it includes every person on the world as you are using it.

Peter is writing to those who need to understand that God is able to deliver the elect from judgement and false teachers. He uses Lot and Noah as examples. He is teaching those concerned about these saints to be "patient" just as God is.

2 Peter 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.

You need to read the entire book of 2 Peter in context. Do not take one verse that seems to prove you belief and use it by itself as a prooftext.

19

News Item5/26/08 2:38 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Billy Graham wrote:
...personally defines an evangelical as someone who has converted, has Christian and Bible-centered beliefs and participates in social activism based on compassion.
Well, most of know what type of Christian Billy Graham was, and much as I dislike saying it, Jerry Falwell muddied the waters of Christianity with his political activism, The Believer and Politics. All this does is cause, Division and Diversion.
18

News Item5/26/08 11:11 AM
Mike  Find all comments by Mike
rogerant wrote:
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as "some" (5100) count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that "any" (5100) should perish,
(5100) ti v, — tis; an encliteral indefinite pronoun; some or any person or
object: — a (kind of), any (man, thing, thing at all), certain
(thing), divers, he (every) man, one (x thing), ought, + partly,
some (man, -body, -thing, -what), (+ that no-) thing, what (-
soever), x wherewith, whom [-soever], whose ([-soever]).
Which is it? Are you holding that 5100 is always every man, women and child ever born. Why do they interpret 5100 as "some" in verse 8, and not as "any" in verse 9. You can't hold that 5100 always means every man women and child.

I am sorry, but I cannot worship a mickey mouse God that can't save.

I am sorry, too. There's no "some" in v8.

But it makes no difference. How can, in your understanding, "Not willing that any should perish" or if you prefer, "not willing that some should perish" apply to the elect? If they are the preselected, there was never a chance that any, or some, of them could perish. Your making "any" mean "some" where "any" is used changes nothing.

In what way then would the Lord be longsuffering to the elect?

17

News Item5/25/08 11:30 PM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
Mike wrote:
How can, in your understanding, "Not willing that any should perish," apply to the elect?
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as "some" (5100) count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that "any" (5100) should perish,

(5100) ti v, — tis; an encliteral indefinite pronoun; some or any person or
object: — a (kind of), any (man, thing, thing at all), certain
(thing), divers, he (every) man, one (x thing), ought, + partly,
some (man, -body, -thing, -what), (+ that no-) thing, what (-
soever), x wherewith, whom [-soever], whose ([-soever]).

Which is it? Are you holding that 5100 is always every man, women and child ever born. Why do they interpret 5100 as "some" in verse 8, and not as "any" in verse 9. You can't hold that 5100 always means every man women and child.

Isaiah: I am God and there is none like me... Saying my council shall stand, And I will do all my pleasure.

If God was not willing that any should perish, then none would. If some have perished, God can not be trusted, that God is not omnipotent, but impotent. I am sorry, but I cannot worship a mickey mouse God that can't save.

16

News Item5/25/08 7:16 PM
scant | Saskatoon, Canada  Find all comments by scant
Michael Hranek wrote:
Christians, whom God has burdened ...
....professing believers would far more be serving Satan if they abandon government to people such as abortionists, homosexuals, pornographers and child molesters and let's not forget militant Muslims.
Really? Do you think it is a burden to serve God in whatever profession He has gifted you to do His good will?
I certainly agree that people in high leadership positions in politics should be held to a high moral standard in their conduct, but that is not the same as aligning with a particular religious group as part of one's political platform. I believe in the sovereignty of God and that He is in control, we just need to worry about rendering to Caesar what is Caesar and to God what is God's.
And as for keeping all those bad people out of government, you forgot to list Covetors, adulterers, church gossips, idolaters, me, you, the list goes on. The point is that we are all sinners and fall short - regardless of the sin, and can only call ourselves Christians by the Grace of God. Heck, could you imagine the tabloids today..."King David's great, great Grandmother, Rahab, was a prostitute!" What was God thinking!!!
15

News Item5/25/08 6:33 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
rogerant wrote:
Yes God is longsuffering towards us, the elect. He allows evil in His plan. He uses evil to carry out His plan. He puts up with evil in His plan of redeeming the elect out of this world. Elect persons from the time of Adam, to now, and the future. God elects sinners, waits until they are born, and then at the right time, His time, reveals the beauty of His Son to them. And in the mean time, He is patient. Not bringing them all home immediately, not destroying the wicked immediately, but suffers their evil until "All Israel is Saved" As Paul says, "What if God, wanting to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction".
Does not your reply prove that the objects of God's lonsuffering (2 Peter 3:9) is not therefore the elect, as defined by your camp? You begin by saying God is longsuffering towards us-ward, whom you call the elect. Then you quote a verse that does not in fact support this but the opposite, that God endures with longsuffering the vessels of wrath. His "putting up" with evil can hardly be called longsuffering to the elect. How can, in your understanding, "Not willing that any should perish," apply to the elect?
14

News Item5/25/08 5:53 PM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
Mike wrote:
Again, the theology that says 'us-ward' is the elect must be consistent with itself. This same theology says you must also believe that they will repent in God's timing, correct? In what way then would the Lord be longsuffering toward the elect, when the timing of their inevitable repentance has been predestined and established by Him? Longsuffering denotes patience. The Lord has no need to be patient with Himself.
Yes God is longsuffering towards us, the elect. He allows evil in His plan. He uses evil to carry out His plan. He puts up with evil in His plan of redeeming the elect out of this world. Elect persons from the time of Adam, to now, and the future. God elects sinners, waits until they are born, and then at the right time, His time, reveals the beauty of His Son to them. And in the mean time, He is patient. Not bringing them all home immediately, not destroying the wicked immediately, but suffers their evil until "All Israel is Saved" As Paul says, "What if God, wanting to show His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction".
13

News Item5/25/08 11:59 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Again, the theology that says 'us-ward' is the elect must be consistent with itself. This same theology says you must also believe that they will repent in God's timing, correct? In what way then would the Lord be longsuffering toward the elect, when the timing of their inevitable repentance has been predestined and established by Him? Longsuffering denotes patience. The Lord has no need to be patient with Himself.
12

News Item5/25/08 11:29 AM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
Michael Hranek wrote:
2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is LONGSUFFERING toward us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.

My Response:

For a proper exegesis on 2 Peter 3:9 I strongly suggest that you watch this short video at this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI

He is longsuffering TOWARDS US. Who is us? 3:1 To my Beloved, to whom Peter was writing this second epistle. To whom did he write the 1st Epistle. 1 Peter 1:1 To the pilgrims of the Dispersion...elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father...

and 2 Peter 1: To those who have obtained a precious faith with us...His divine power has given to us ALL THINGS THAT PERTAIN TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, through the KNOWLEDGE of Him

Therefore, He is longsuffering toward the elect. You need to read the entire book of Peter to determine who are proper recipients of the letter, and to find out who the recipients of the longsuffering. The recipients had concerns for their fellow believers whom had fallen under the teaching of false teachers (see chapter 2) But Peter responds in saying that God delivered Noah and Lot, just as He will deliver believers or (the elect).

11

News Item5/24/08 11:32 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
rogerant wrote:
Matt: 13:10 And the disciples came, and said ....
rogerant
What's the matter can't you answer as straightforward question with a straightforward answer?

Makes me kind of wonder if you are trying to hide exactly what you believe, and of course, Why?

btw I'll be straight up. I believe God desires sinners to be saved and has provided a way, The ONLY Way in His Son Jesus Christ. And Yes, I can quote Bible verses that I have to think speak much clearer than the ones you choose to support your belief, whatever it happens to be.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is LONGSUFFERING toward us, NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL MEN,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 WHO DESIRES ALL men TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Just how bad can this "god" hate people to want them damned that is everyone but "his elect"?

10

News Item5/24/08 10:11 PM
savedbygrace | Harrisburg, PA  Find all comments by savedbygrace
13:15 - "closed eyes"
13:16 - "seeing eyes"

b e c a u s e

13:11 - "given and not given"

9

News Item5/24/08 5:45 PM
Douglas K. Adu-Boahen | London, England  Contact via emailFind all comments by Douglas K. Adu-Boahen
I would be referring to the corrupt thing. Good adminstration of the law of the land is highly important - Rom 13:1-10
8

News Item5/24/08 5:12 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
FYI, Jesus expresses no hatred in Matt. 13:10-

Also notice 13:15 "..and their eyes they have closed;.." (the opposite of having their eyes closed for them)

And 13:16 "But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear." (Not "your eyes see because they are blessed; and your ears hear, because they are blessed.")

7

News Item5/24/08 4:54 PM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
Michael Hranek wrote:
'Do you believe God only loves the elect and hates everyone else..
Matt: 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not,and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Romans 9:20 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

6

News Item5/24/08 5:47 AM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
rogerant wrote:
AAAHHHEEMM:
rogerant
I think you misread my post...If we abandon GOVERNMENT to people such as...

But your post puzzles me...

So let me ask you,
'Do you believe God only loves the elect and hates everyone else and has so predestined them to the eternal punishments of hell that He has Sovereignly ensured they will never be able to repent and believe in Christ?'

Please be so kind as to tell what you believe.

How in the world would anyone imagine that they are serving Christ if they are preaching 'good news' to people that God hates them if they are not one of the predestinated/elect like they are and God has determined that they will never believe so He might damn them to hell forever?

Or how would anyone imagine they are serving Christ if they are not preaching the Gospel of Christ, that God has sent His Son into the world to save sinners and that He who risen from the dead, Who died and shed His blood for them can and is willing to save them, everyone who believes in Him, everyone who comes to Him in faith, if they falsely believe He hates them and because of their false belief withhold telling them of Jesus Christ?

5

News Item5/23/08 10:41 PM
rogerant | Saskatoon Canada  Contact via emailFind all comments by rogerant
Michael Hranek wrote:
For that matter professing believers would far more be serving Satan if they abandon government to people such as abortionists, homosexuals, pornographers and child molesters and let's not forget militant Muslims.
AAAHHHEEMM: Michael: Why would it be OK if you abandon people such as abortionists, homosexuals, pornographers and child molesters, and it not be OK if God abandon them??? What if God did abandon (or gave them over) them. But then he loved them, and sent his Son to die for them, while they were still abortionists, homosexuals and pornographers, before they repented, and called on the name of the Lord. Wouldn't it be right for Him to abandon them like you have? And what if, by GRACE (unmerited favor) he quickened them to believe??? Now, that would be Love, that would be grace. Isn't that who we are? No one is righteous, not even one, not me, not even you, but while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. For it is because of "HIM" that we are in Christ Jesus, so that not one of us can boast. (except apparently you)
4

News Item5/23/08 7:18 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Want to see politics at your church? Try taking a principled stand against the pastor's unbiblical program, & see what happens.
3

News Item5/23/08 6:39 PM
Michael Hranek | Endicott, New York  Protected NameFind all comments by Michael Hranek
Douglas K. Adu-Boahen wrote:
Politics is not an arena which any Christian should be actively involved in.
Douglas K. Adu-Boahen
If by "politics" you mean corrupt compromising deal making 'in bed with the devil' to get elected type of thing one normally associates with the word politics I would have to agree.

But if you mean government and a good and proper administration of a nation and the making of its laws I would disagree.

Christians, whom God has burdened can serve Christ wonderfully in government laboring for things that are right such as Wilberforce labored to abolish slavery.

For that matter professing believers would far more be serving Satan if they abandon government to people such as abortionists, homosexuals, pornographers and child molesters and let's not forget militant Muslims.

2
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