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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | Fridays | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  6/23/2017
Choice News MONDAY, FEB 11, 2008  |  60 comments
Bishop: Christians don't go to heaven
A bishop described as "one of the most formidable figures in the world of Christian thought" is now challenging the widely held belief that Christians go to heaven when they die.

N.T. "Tom" Wright, the fourth most senior cleric in the Church of England who has been praised for his staunch defense of the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ, has published a new book in which he says people do not ascend to God's dwelling place. Instead, deceased believers are in a sleep-like state until God comes back to Earth.

"Never at any point do the Gospels or Paul say Jesus has been raised, therefore we are we are all going to heaven," Wright told Time Magazine. "I've often heard people say, 'I'm going to heaven soon, and I won't need this stupid body there, thank goodness.' That's a very damaging distortion, all the more so for being unintentional." ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 60 user comment(s)
News Item2/21/08 3:02 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
By the way, has anyone pointed out that "soul sleep" is a discarded idea of cults such as the Jehovah Witnesses and the Seventh Day Adventists?

The Resurrections in Scripture

60

News Item2/18/08 9:05 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Neil,

I agree.

Perhaps "verity" will tell us about the other four books of the 66 which he considers "spurious Jewish fables".

59

News Item2/18/08 8:49 PM
Faithful Remnant  Find all comments by Faithful Remnant
I don't think Dr.Phil has met Mr.Harris.

Dr. Phil makes a good point in how to understand more fully what is in Revelation.

58

News Item2/18/08 8:35 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
"verity" resembles Russell Harris of www.broadcaster.org, who has contended here before.
57

News Item2/18/08 8:14 PM
Dr. Phil  Find all comments by Dr. Phil
verity wrote:
The Christian is called to have faith (that is, confidence) in the recorded Word of God. But the Christian also is commanded to prove that the record to which he holds is authentic.
Consequently and throughout history, the Lord always has provided irrefutable witnesses to establish the authenticity of the record of the things which he has spoken. Such witnesses do not exist for the book of Revelation, for the document is a forgery.
It is the height of foolishness to accord canonical status to a document such as the book of Revelation which not only contradicts established Scripture, but also provides within its own pages multiple proofs of its corrupt nature and illegitimate origin.
There is no virtue in veneration of a forgery.
And just what do you offer as "multiple proofs" of this corrupt nature and illegitimate origin. Let me guess, this must have something to do with Revelation's revelation of the "Harlot of Rome". As you say, "there is no virtue in veneration of a forgery."

Furthermore, perhaps it would help you to know and understand the rest of the scriptures before you read the end of the Bible. This would help tremendously with the metaphors that the Apostle John used from the previous books.

56

News Item2/18/08 7:55 PM
Faithful Remnant  Find all comments by Faithful Remnant
There is also no virtue in venerating the works of scholars or even pastors.
55

News Item2/18/08 7:48 PM
verity | texas  Contact via emailFind all comments by verity
The Christian is called to have faith (that is, confidence) in the recorded Word of God. But the Christian also is commanded to prove that the record to which he holds is authentic.

Consequently and throughout history, the Lord always has provided irrefutable witnesses to establish the authenticity of the record of the things which he has spoken. Such witnesses do not exist for the book of Revelation, for the document is a forgery.

It is the height of foolishness to accord canonical status to a document such as the book of Revelation which not only contradicts established Scripture, but also provides within its own pages multiple proofs of its corrupt nature and illegitimate origin.

There is no virtue in veneration of a forgery.

54

News Item2/18/08 11:25 AM
Faithful Remnant  Find all comments by Faithful Remnant
True, Kenny

Verity, I addressed you, but maybe you missed it below....we can prove all things with the scriptures alone. All scripture is for correction. This confession of the Apostle Paul about the trustworthiness of scripture excludes the pulpit commentary and Encyclopedia Britannica.

53

News Item2/18/08 10:53 AM
verity | texas  Contact via emailFind all comments by verity
kenny wrote:
You may rest assured that John the Apostle wrote the NT book of Revelation.
On what basis, or by what authority, do you make this pronouncement?

Have you proved the authorship of the document, in obedience to the command of I Thessalonians 5:21?

If so, pray tell us how you were able to establish the authorship, whereas so many learned and devout Christian men throughout the centuries have been unable to establish it with any degree of certainty.

52

News Item2/18/08 6:27 AM
kenny  Find all comments by kenny
John in San Jose,

You may rest assured that John the Apostle wrote the NT book of Revelation.

51

News Item2/18/08 1:50 AM
Faithful Remnant  Find all comments by Faithful Remnant
Seems to me most scholars are out to attack the Scriptures and leave the world in doubt at the integrity of God's word. Remember the Bible talks of a false science and "considering themselves wise, they became fools," along with a great falling away, adding to and taking from God's word, etc. Such folks are on thin ice that is melting to give way to the fires of hell beneath Repent while there is time Verity, we can prove all things with the scriptures alone. All scripture is for correction. This confession of the Apostle Paul about the trustworthiness of scripture excludes the pulpit commentary and Encyclopedia Britannica.
50

News Item2/18/08 1:35 AM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
verity wrote:
The author is unknown. Scholars point out that the document is a patchwork which likely is the work of several men. In any case, it clearly is a forgery.

The Scripture commands, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good," I Thessalonians 5:21. So search out the matter for yourself. Start with the Encyclopaedia Britannica and scholarly commentaries, such as that of Adam Clarke and The Pulpit Commentary. The evidence mounts quickly, so the process is not at all tedious.

Russell L. Harris, no doubt, is back. Away with you.
49

News Item2/18/08 1:10 AM
verity | texas  Contact via emailFind all comments by verity
John wrote:
So which "John" actually wrote the book
of Revelation? Rev 1:9, 21:2, 22:8
The author is unknown. Scholars point out that the document is a patchwork which likely is the work of several men. In any case, it clearly is a forgery.

The Scripture commands, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good," I Thessalonians 5:21. So search out the matter for yourself. Start with the Encyclopaedia Britannica and scholarly commentaries, such as that of Adam Clarke and The Pulpit Commentary. The evidence mounts quickly, so the process is not at all tedious.

48

News Item2/17/08 8:39 PM
John | San Jose, CA  Find all comments by John
verity wrote:
The book of Revelation has a pedigree which, to say the least, is highly questionable. The book certainly was not written by John the apostle -- as the linguistic style of the Greek demonstrates beyond doubt. And there are other proofs.
The book of Revelation is but one of numerous similar apocalyptic documents -- all of them Talmudic Jewish forgeries -- which were circulating in the first century A.D. Not being the work of John the apostle, the book is not canonical, and must be rejected as worthless.
So which "John" actually wrote the book
of Revelation? Rev 1:9, 21:2, 22:8
47

News Item2/17/08 8:23 PM
verity | texas  Find all comments by verity
Anna wrote:
... based on events in Rev. ...
Regrettably, most Christian pastors and teachers swallow the book of Revelation -- hook, line, and sinker -- without bothering to question or verify its authenticity. And this is curious, in view of the fact that the teaching found in the book in many points contradicts the teaching which is common to every other book in the Bible.

The book of Revelation has a pedigree which, to say the least, is highly questionable. The book certainly was not written by John the apostle -- as the linguistic style of the Greek demonstrates beyond doubt. And there are other proofs.

The book of Revelation is but one of numerous similar apocalyptic documents -- all of them Talmudic Jewish forgeries -- which were circulating in the first century A.D. Not being the work of John the apostle, the book is not canonical, and must be rejected as worthless.

46

News Item2/17/08 4:44 PM
Anna | UK  Find all comments by Anna
Alistair, you make good and valid debatable comments in my view.

For the most of you, this idea of a "sleep" is indeed not new. It is what the Dutch Calvinist church believes ,particulary
the re-Reformed and other calvinist denominations there.
In fact a strict reformed church split quite a few years ago on this very issue, believing against tradition that souls do go to heaven or hell upon death. The others deny this as they believe in a final resurrection and subsequent judgement based on events in Rev.
They do not believe a person goes directly to heaven or hell as this would mean they have already been judged!

So not new and not something Wright discovered more likely something that has never been an issue within the Anglican church before !

.

45

News Item2/17/08 6:52 AM
verity | texas  Find all comments by verity
Alan wrote:
It is not a parable... It doesn't say it's a parabale like most parts of the Bible do, doesn't start like one, Jesus doesn't explain what it means, he didn't compare it with anything, parables don't use specific names,
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man is LOADED with symbolism, so that the interpretation is painfully obvious to those who originally heard it (though you fail to understand it).

Alan wrote:
and of course Jesus NEVER USED FALSE IDEAS TO EXPLAIN TRUE ONES NOT EVEN TO GIVE A WARNING.
No so! Indeed, in the parable of the unrighteous steward, Jesus uses sarcasm, mockingly warning the leaders of the Jews that they need to make friends of the UNrighteous, that they may have a place to go when they are evicted from their stewardship (the implication being that the leaders of the Jews shall not find refuge among the righteous). The parable of the wicked tenants foretells this eviction.

Even as the parable of the pounds is NOT a commendation of the sinful practice of usury, so also in this parable Jesus is NOT commending the practice of "cooking the books"! The unrighteous steward added to his unrighteousness by discounting the debts which others owed
his master.

44

News Item2/15/08 2:40 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
If I haven't gotten mine, or better Gil Rugh's 2 cents' worth in, this is the time.
Gil Rugh said or, wrote:
The apostle Paul is giving a thorough argument to refute the claims of false teaching that denies the bodily resurrection of believers. He first used seven hypothetical considerations and in this section moves to the reality of Christ having been raised from the dead. Critical to bear in mind in this section is his only concern here is the resurrection of believers, and the inseparable link with Christ's resurrction. He uses the comparison between Adam & Christ - which is between two men - with emphasis on their humanism. Point being made, Adam by his action brought death to humanity, Christ by his action brought life through his resurrection from physical death. All humanity is associated with Adam and face death - those who have an association (relationship) with Christ, by faith in His person and work - alone, will have life and escape eternal death.

The details of believers coming resurrection and the sequence of events as God has revealed them through Paul describe Christ as 'the first fruits of the resurrection.'

Christ as the First Fruits
43

News Item2/15/08 10:50 AM
Alan | Chile  Find all comments by Alan
"See my previous posting (about a dozen down). The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a PARABLE, in which Jesus uses the Talmudic view of the afterlife to warn the Jews of the judgment which is about to fall upon them.

Talmudic Judaism is NOT the Faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

It is not a parable... It doesn't say it's a parabale like most parts of the Bible do, doesn't start like one, Jesus doesn't explain what it means, he didn't compare it with anything, parables don't use specific names, and of course Jesus NEVER USED FALSE IDEAS TO EXPLAIN TRUE ONES NOT EVEN TO GIVE A WARNING.
You mistaked Jesus or your very own toughts are mistaked about what the Scriptures say.

In the transfiguration Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah... they were resurrected for a little time and then back to "sleep"? Enoch was translated that he should not see death, then where is he now? is he dead??????????
You have to be very carefull when taking doctrines out of Ecclesiastes, because it gives a EARTHLY view of what is going on arround him... he describes what he SEES WITH HIS EYES, that's why dead people is "asleep", just like animals. Does this mean humans and animals share the same destiny???
Please try to notice when you speak about a preconceived idea and what the Bible really s

42

News Item2/14/08 5:13 PM
verity | texas  Find all comments by verity
John wrote:
...
Still, those who prefer a more literal understanding of Lazarus and the rich man would vehemently deny the above teaching.
...
See my previous posting (about a dozen down). The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a PARABLE, in which Jesus uses the Talmudic view of the afterlife to warn the Jews of the judgment which is about to fall upon them.

Talmudic Judaism is NOT the Faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

41
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