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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  8/1/2014
Choice News WEDNESDAY, NOV 7, 2007  |  187 comments
A shocking confession from Willow Creek Community Church leaders
Willow Creek has released the results of a multi-year study on the effectiveness of their programs and philosophy of ministry. The study's findings are in a new book titled "Reveal: Where Are You?," co-authored by Cally Parkinson and Greg Hawkins, executive pastor of Willow Creek Community Church. Hybels himself called the findings "ground breaking," "earth shaking" and "mind blowing." And no wonder: It seems that the "experts" were wrong.

The report reveals that most of what they have been doing for these many years and what they have taught millions of others to do is not producing solid disciples of Jesus Christ. Numbers yes, but not disciples. It gets worse.

If you simply want a crowd, the "seeker-sensitive" model produces results. If you want solid, sincere, mature followers of Christ, it's a bust. In a shocking confession, Hybels states:

"We made a mistake. What we should have done when ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 187 user comment(s)
News Item11/23/07 12:38 AM
Abigail | Oregon  Contact via emailFind all comments by Abigail
Qaton Chozeh said
"The point was all that think that their will was free to decide and choose Christ (a righteous work) as the determining basis of their salvation are lost and show themselves to trust in their works as much as the Jews who insisted upon circumcision.
_____

We are not trusting in ourselves for salvation. We are trusting in the Lord who cleanses us with His holy blood, changes our hearts, and gives us His Spirit. The Lord loves those that have a contrite spirit and a broken heart.

Psa 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Isa 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isa 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

In the love of Jesus Christ with prayers
Abigail

187

News Item11/21/07 7:32 PM
terry evans | miramar beach fl  Contact via emailFind all comments by terry evans
Qaton Chozeh wrote:
The issue and difference is that you either believe in Jesus Christ - your salvation, or you believe that Jesus is your salvation, conditioned upon your choosing of Him (and following Him faithfully for some).

If the later, you are really trusting in your decision and you are dead in your sins.

terry

Amen

Its really that simple, not that I think the first part has anything to do with predestination, as far as man should concern himself about, but the key word is still Believe, most don't have a clue, Someone in the Bible said, those with ears to hear, let them hear.

thank you, much better then the big words.

186

News Item11/21/07 3:33 PM
Qaton Chozeh | Detroit  Find all comments by Qaton Chozeh
Abigail wrote:
No. True Christians don't take credit for our salvation.
*************
Ummmm....that really was my point. Apparently you missed something in your reading of my comment.

The point was all that think that their will was free to decide and choose Christ (a righteous work) as the determining basis of their salvation are lost and show themselves to trust in their works as much as the Jews who insisted upon circumcision.

The issue and difference is that you either believe in Jesus Christ - your salvation, or you believe that Jesus is your salvation, conditioned upon your choosing of Him (and following Him faithfully for some).

If the later, you are really trusting in your decision and you are dead in your sins.

All Christians are "careful to maintain good works," and "cleanse ourselves" etc. The issue is that the "wolves in sheep's clothing," claim to believe "it is He who works in us both to will and to do" but out of the same perverse mouth demand that it was their free will, their choice of Christ, which was the impetus to do such things.

Those that believe such are truly a deceived, vain talking, and a spiritually dead lot.

Praise the Lord who will have mercy on whom He will and "whom He will He hardeneth."

185

News Item11/20/07 1:01 AM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit !!!  Find all comments by KK
Lurker

Men have competely imbalanced THE TRUTH and have divorced THE TRUTH to embrace a lie

Men have changed THE TRUE CHARACTER OF our LOVING GOD -- they dispossess THE TRUE BALANCE OF THE SCALES OF HIS JUSTICE --- ON THE ONE - THE GOODNESS OF GOD --- AND THE OTHER - THE SEVERITY OF GOD

You and all others like minded BEST BEWARE -------
you have perverted THE GOODNESS AND SEVERITY OF GOD !!!

Rom 11:
20) Well; ***because of unbelief*** they were broken off, and thou STANDEST *BY* ""FAITH"". *Be not* highminded, ***BUT FEAR***:

21) FOR IF GOD SPARED NOT the natural branches, ***TAKE HEED*** LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT thee.

22) BEHOLD THEREFORE THE GOODNESS AND SEVERITY OF GOD: ON them which fell, SEVERITY; ***BUT*** TOWARD thee, GOODNESS, ***IF*** thou ***CONTINUE*** IN HIS GOODNESS: ***OTHERWISE** *****thou ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF*****.

23) And they also, ***IF*** they abide not still in unbelief, SHALL BE GRAFTED IN: FOR GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFT them IN ***AGAIN***.

Today ReLiGiON has denied that man can [and has] moved from BELIEF to unbelief

WHAT STIFF-NECKED RECKLESSNESS...

THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD TODAY ----- TRUTH has been watered down to accommodate man's own bent, making GOD a party to ***unfaithfulness***

Veritas Vincit !!!

*IN* Christ, KK

184

News Item11/20/07 12:43 AM
Abigail | Oregon  Contact via emailFind all comments by Abigail
Walt said

" Abigail,
Please try to use the correct passages when we are talking about regeneration and justification. Although these words are perhaps foreign to you, these fall into line with the doctrine of salvation. Sanctification and mortification come after justification, not with justification.
_____

Instead of acknowledging the Scriptures that contradict your doctrine, you side step attempting to prove that salvation does not include justification, sanctification, and mortification. Justified and Sanctified do happen at the same time. You cannot prove by Scripture that they do not. If that is Romish—they got something right!!

In the love of Jesus Christ with prayers
Abigail

183

News Item11/19/07 11:04 PM
Abigail | Oregon  Contact via emailFind all comments by Abigail
Walt said

"Abigail teaches: "God can't save you unless you let him, it is your choice."
THE BIBLE TEACHES: 'So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.' (Romans 9:16, 18).
_____

Joh 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those born of the Spirit are born of the will of God and not of the will of man—for man cannot will himself to be born of the Spirit—being born of the Spirit is an act of God. However, man can yield to the Spirit or spurn the Spirit by rejection.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2Co 5:17)

In the love of Jesus Christ with prayers
Abigail

182

News Item11/19/07 5:58 PM
Walt | Michigan  Find all comments by Walt
Jim,

You don't really believe someone is justified and sancified at the same time do you?

That is Romish through and through.

181

News Item11/19/07 3:10 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Perhaps something not to get into a fistfight over, ,Walt; but one is justified and sanctified at the same time, q.v.,

"What to Look for in a Church"

http://www.ihcc.org/index.php?id=article&art_id=Zv7awnJDyLgSEOEmxSsb96E29

180

News Item11/19/07 1:36 PM
Lurker | USA  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
KK wrote:
SHALL THE JUST LIVE BY FAITH ???
Of course.

Faith is a feminine noun (a means).

Faith is the antithesis of works of the flesh.

Faith proceeds from the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Faith empowers one to cease from works of self righteousness and believe (trust) in the One the Father sent.

Faith's manifestation is trusting the One who is able to lift up from the dust, cause to stand and preserve blameless unto that day.

Faith (and love) is the fruit of a branch grafted into the true Vine.

Do a word search for trust and read every appearance in the psalms.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him. (Ps 2:12)

179

News Item11/19/07 10:20 AM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit !!!  Find all comments by KK
Lurker

Ponder this

My brethren, count it all joy when ye ""fall into"" divers ""temptations""; knowing this, that THE ""TRYING"" OF **your** FAITH ""WORKETH"" PATIENCE.

"fall into" - περιπίπτω - to fall into something that is all around, that is, light among or upon, be surrounded with: - fall among (into)

"temptations" - πειρασμός - A PUTTING TO PROOF (**BY** EXPERIMENT [**OF GOOD**], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation, X try

"TRYING" - dokimion - A TESTING; by implication **TRUSTWORTHINESS**: - TRIAL, TRYING

"WORKETH" - κατεργάζομαι - TO WORK FULLY, that is, ACCOMPLISH; by implication TO FINISH, FASHION: - CAUSE, DO (DEED), PERFORM, WORK (OUT)

All of us are surrounded by evil and we will experience it and when we do we PUT TO PROOF THE TRUSTWORTHINESS OF "FAITH" AND our TRUSTWORTHINESS IN "IT" -- EVIDENCING THE TRUTH OF "FAITH" AND "ITS" POWER **TO WORK FULLY** WITHIN our Hearts CAUSING us TO WORK OUT AN ACTIVE "FAITH" THAT ACCOMPLISHES ***TRUE GODLY PATIENCE***

SHALL THE JUST LIVE BY FAITH ???

Veritas Vincit !!!

KK

178

News Item11/19/07 6:38 AM
Walt | Michigan  Find all comments by Walt
Abigail,

Please try to use the correct passages when we are talking about regeneration and justification. Although these words are perhaps foreign to you, these fall into line with the doctrine of salvation. Sanctification and mortification come after justification, not with justification.

Taking the clear distinctions I posted and then have you post a bunch of Scriptures in an attempt to look cool is hardly what I was expecting.

Like Jack Van Impe, you are definitely a posting machine whether context is considered at all. Can you also write in tongues for us here, or only speak in tongues for your church audience?

177

News Item11/19/07 12:20 AM
Abigail | Oregon  Contact via emailFind all comments by Abigail
Walt said

"Abigail teaches: 'and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life.'…"For many are called, but few choose."…"Make your decision for Christ.”…"I accepted Jesus as my personal saviour."…"God can't save you unless you let him, it is your choice."
_____

Whosoever believeth shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Many are called but few are chosen. Strait is the gate and narrow is the way and **few** there be that **find** it.

Joh 1:12 But as many as **received him**, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that **believe** on his name:

1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God **commit the keeping of their souls** to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and **keepeth** them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jam 4:7**Submit** yourselves therefore to God…

Joh 6:35…I am the bread of life: he that **cometh** to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall **come** to me; and him that **cometh** to me I will in no wise cast out.

Luk 6:47 Whosoever **cometh** to me,

176

News Item11/18/07 9:39 PM
Walt | Michigan  Find all comments by Walt
Abigail teaches: 'and as many as believed were ordained to eternal life.'
THE BIBLE TEACHES: 'AND AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.' (Acts 13:48)

Abigail teaches: "For many are called, but few choose."
THE BIBLE TEACHES: 'FOR MANY ARE CALLED, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.' (Matt. 22:14)

Abigail teaches: "Make your decision for Christ.”
THE BIBLE TEACHES: 'All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.' (Matt. 11:27)

Abigail teaches: "I accepted Jesus as my personal saviour."
THE BIBLE TEACHES: 'Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you (John 15:16). Also: But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me.' (Paul's testimony in Galatians 1:15,16)

Abigail teaches: "God can't save you unless you let him, it is your choice."
THE BIBLE TEACHES: 'So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy...Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.' (Romans 9:16, 18).

I've replaced the word "Arminianism" with the word "Abigail" to make my point.

175

News Item11/18/07 9:24 PM
Abigail | Oregon  Contact via emailFind all comments by Abigail
Walt said

"Those who reject original sin, salvation by the free gift of grace alone, through Christ's works alone and speak in tongues to dazzle the audiences have little knowledge of Christ crucified, and the Scriptures alone.
_____

The works of righteousness that Jesus Christ did 2000 years ago avail nothing for those who call themselves by His Name if they do not follow in his footsteps. The free gift of grace enables the believer to divest himself of his fleshly nature and adorn the likeness of our blessed Lord and Savior. Original sin is the transgression of our first parents by which their progeny inherited evil pride that stripped them of fellowship with the Father. Satan's pride is the evil that pervades all humanity, blinding them to their true nature, bringing them into bondage of deceit and lies, the end of which is eternal death [hell].

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jo 2:16-17 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father,but is of the world. And the world passeth away and the lust thereof, but h

174

News Item11/18/07 8:22 PM
Walt | Michigan  Find all comments by Walt
Those who reject original sin, salvation by the free gift of grace alone, through Christ's works alone and speak in tongues to dazzle the audiences have little knowledge of Christ crucified, and the Scriptures alone. Rather, they feed off their works of righteousness and claim gifts unspeakable, moving about the churches performing miracles, wonderous signs and taking vows of poverty to "prove" their gifts of obedience.

In history we see the priests following much of the same works righteousness, claiming Christ and God's grace only to ignore the true gospel of Christ's righteousness to alone save unworthy sinners!

Again, I say: "That no flesh should glory in his presence." (1Cor.1:29)

173

News Item11/18/07 8:03 PM
Abigail | Oregon  Contact via emailFind all comments by Abigail
"Qaton Chozeh,
As they boast about their salvation by works, I can only say Christ will set them absolutely straight:
"That no flesh should glory in his presence." (1Cor.1:29)
_____

No. We are not boasting of our salvation by works. Our faith is in Christ Jesus our Lord who leads and guides in all truth by the Holy Ghost. We are followers of the Lamb, giving our lives a living sacrifice unto Him because He gave Himself a living sacrifice for us. We love Him because He first loved us while we were yet in our sins. All works of righteousness are done by following the leading of the Holy Spirit; the author and finisher of our faith works in us both to will and to do. We called on Him and He in no wise cast us out, but lovingly drew us unto Himself by His Spirit and washed us in His own blood and made us sons and daughters of the Lord God Almighty.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2Co 7:1)

In the love of Jesus Christ with prayers
Abigail

172

News Item11/18/07 6:26 PM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit !!!  Find all comments by KK
Lurker

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; knowing this, that THE TRYING OF **your** ""FAITH"" worketh ""PATIENCE"". But *** LET *** ""PATIENCE"" HAVE her ""PERFECT"" ""WORK"", that ye may be ""PERFECT"" and ""ENTIRE"", wanting nothing.

"her" was added by the translators -- IT SHOULD READ --
But *** LET *** ""PATIENCE"" HAVE ""PERFECT"" ""WORK""

LISTEN

PERFECT - τέλειος - COMPLETE (in various applications of LABOR, GROWTH, *** MENTAL and MORAL CHARACTER ***, etc.); neuter (as noun, with ὁ, ἡ, τό ) COMPLETE: - OF FULL AGE, Man

WORK - ἔργον - TOIL (*** AS AN EFFORT or OCCUPATION ***); by implication AN ACT: - DEED, *** DOING ***, LABOR

ENTIRE - ὁλόκληρος - COMPLETE IN EVERY PART, that is, PERFECTLY SOUND (in body): - WHOLE

Luke 21:19 In your ""PATIENCE"" possess ye your souls.

*In both verses* - PATIENCE - ὑπομονή - CHEERFUL (or HOPEFUL) ENDURANCE, CONSTANCY: - ENDURING, PATIENT CONTINUANCE (WAITING)

CHEW IT WELL Brother -- THIS IS MEAT FOR your soul !!!

Veritas Vincit !!!

KK

171

News Item11/18/07 5:14 PM
Walt | Michigan  Find all comments by Walt
Qaton Chozeh,

As they boast about their salvation by works, I can only say Christ will set them absolutely straight:

"That no flesh should glory in his presence." (1Cor.1:29)

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=9130315128

See the sermon above. Although it comes from a bapist minister who I would disagree with on several points of doctrine, this preacher nails it perfectly on this subject!

He goes through the Arminian and Calvinist distinctions excellently. Let them boast about their salvation, but we know that only Christ saves.

170

News Item11/18/07 3:59 PM
Abigail | Oregon  Contact via emailFind all comments by Abigail
Qaton Chozeh said

"A truly poor state to be in: wicked, wrong about one's own nature and ability, and attempting to steal from the glory of God. Truly they cannot say with us, "let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified," for they must stop the continuity and proclaim a portion of the magnification for their wisdom and righteous decision."
____

No. True Christians don't take credit for our salvation. God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, is worthy of all glory, honor, and praise. Our righteousness and wisdom comes from Him through the Holy Ghost that He has so graciously given to those who repent and turn to Him with their whole hearts. He is the author and finisher of our faith; it is He who works in us both to will and to do; He dwells in our hearts by the Holy Ghost and leads and guides in all truth. He leads us in paths of righteousness for His Namesake. He will never leave us nor forsake us, He is with us to the end of the world. He called us and chose us while we were yet in sin, and cleansed us by His holy atoning blood and gave us New Life in Him. He has implanted His laws in our hearts that give us desire to obey and please Him even unto martyrdom or death. Our will is that we may be conformed to His Son Jesus Christ and that His wi

169

News Item11/18/07 3:13 AM
Lurker | USA  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
Qaton Chozeh wrote:
Just a couple of thoughts.
Excellent thoughts, Qaton, but I suspect we agree they may be lost on KK and likeminded.

God's blessings to you and yours.

168
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