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Breaking News Home | All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA News
FRONT PAGE  |  6/3/2015
Choice News WEDNESDAY, MAY 9, 2007  |  89 comments
ACLU Sues N.C. To Allow Quran For Oaths
(AP) If North Carolina is going to let people use a religious text when taking an oath in court, the Bible should not be the only book allowed, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union argued in court Tuesday.

A lawsuit filed by the ACLU of North Carolina challenges a state policy that allows only the Bible to be used in such court procedures.

‚ÄúIf the state is going to get into the religious oath business, the state has to be fair,‚ÄĚ said Seth Cohen, the ACLU's lead counsel on the case. ...


CLICK HERE to Read Entire Article
www.cbsnews.com

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· Page 1 ·  Found: 89 user comment(s)
News Item6/2/07 2:43 PM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit  Find all comments by KK
Neil

Thomas Jefferson wrote The Declaration of Independence and It is the Foundational Statement of what government is and from what source it derives its powers.

Ponder these statements by Jefferson

If [GOD] has made it a law in the nature of man to pursue his own happiness, HE has left him free in the choice of place as well as mode, and we may safely call on the whole body of English jurists to produce the map on which nature has traced for each individual the geographical line which she forbids him to cross in pursuit of happiness.

I sincerely pray that all the members of the human family may, in the time prescribed by THE FATHER of us all, find themselves securely established in the enjoyment of life, liberty, and happiness.

THE GIVER OF Life GAVE It For Happiness AND NOT for wretchedness.

Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of THE GIFT OF GOD? That they ARE NOT to be violated but with HIS WRATH?

Remember what James Madison said?

We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon...the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves According To THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

89

News Item5/31/07 4:57 PM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit  Find all comments by KK
A few lines from George Washington's Farewell Address

REASON AND EXPERIENCE BOTH FORBID us TO EXPECT THAT ***NATIONAL MORALITY*** CAN PREVAIL **in exclusion of** ***RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLE***. ... And let us WITH CAUTION indulge the supposition THAT ***MORALITY*** CAN BE MAINTAINED ***without*** ***RELIGION***.

IT IS *SUBSTANTIALLY TRUE* THAT *VIRTUE OR MORALITY* IS A **NECESSARY** **Spring** of Popular Government. THE RULE *INDEED* Extends With More Or Less Force To Every Species OF FREE GOVERNMENT. *Who* That Is A SINCERE FRIEND TO IT can look with indifference upon attempts to shake THE FOUNDATION Of THE FABRIC?

Having RESTATED the above, my point is this:

Men Have Forgotten That MORALITY ***CANNNOT BE MAINTAINED*** **without** ***RELIGION*** !!! You SEE ??? -- IT IS MORALITY **BIRTHED THROUGH** RELIGEOUS PRINCIPLE !!! THESE ARE *INDISPENSABLE SUPPORTS* **FOR** Political Prosperity And National Morality.

And furthermore I Would Ask You To Please Ponder The Heart/Mind-set With Which GW And All The Others Approached The Constitution -- These Men OF GOD Were NO shallow thinkers - [as many today would have us believe] - They Thought ON A GRAND SCALE ---
*** "NATIONAL MORALITY" ***

A FAR CRY FROM the thought processes of these SiMpLeToNs "We" Have In DC Today

KK

88

News Item5/31/07 11:55 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
KK, of course McHenry was correct, but that's irrelevant to your argument that our nat'l gov't was conceived as a Christian one, & that the people have forgotten or ignored that. You can't forget something that was never there in the 1st place! The most one can say is that our gov't is organized in a manner largely consistent with Biblical doctrines, whether that was intended or not. I see a resemblance here to Ex. 18. Moses did not organize Israel's federalism according to direct revelation, but on the advice of his father-in-law! Yet God evidently sanctioned it, & by implication commended it vs. the statist monarchy Israel later demanded.

Certainly most of our leadership (and citizenry) is wicked, & they ought to heed God's Law. But that wasn't your original point.

87

News Item5/31/07 11:03 AM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit  Find all comments by KK
Neil

James McHenry Was Saying:

THE HOLY SCRIPTURES **CAN ONLY SECURE TO Society**, **ORDER** AND **PEACE**, AND TO Our ***Courts of Justice*** AND ***Constitutions of Government***, **PURITY**, **STABILITY**, AND **USEFULNESS**.

Do you see what these FOOLISH, Broke-Back Mountain, Spineless, Self-SERVING, DESPOTS IN DC Have Been Doing To America ???

Their hands are FILTHY WITH INJUSTICE --- their Hearts are EMPTY And FILLED WITH DISSIPATION And ***HAVING NO FEAR OF GOD**** IN their Hearts they ARE A DANGER TO themselves AND A DANGER TO "We The People" --- But all of the culpability IS NOT theirs !!! You SEE ??? "We The People", in our dereliction of DUTY, HAVE FAILED "GOD AND Country" IN our PATHETICLLY APATHETIC WATCH CARE OVER THIS Nation And those "We" Have Placed In DC

Our Society NO LONGER HAS **ORDER** AND **PEACE** !?!

Our ***Courts of Justice*** AND ***Constitutions of Government*** NO LONGER POSSESS **PURITY**, **STABILITY**, AND **USEFULNESS**.

The Curvature of The Wheels of Justice And The Hubs Upon Which They Turn, These ARE STILL INTACT -- BUT "these" CONFOUNDED ***ATROCIOUSLY ROTTEN AND PUTRID "COGS"*** MUST BE REPLACED !!! THE STABILITY Of THIS WAGON ***DEPENDS UPON THE REMOVAL Of "these" "COGS" !!!

"FOR GOD AND Country" ORDER & PEACE !!!

86

News Item5/30/07 3:07 PM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit  Find all comments by KK
anonymous

.............................................. TOUCHE' SIR !!!

.
As for you Neil ---

...................... ??? ... ... ??? ... ... ??? ... ... ??? ......................

The *same reasoning* has been used by secularists to "prove" there is a "wall of separation" between church & state just because Jefferson discussed it in a letter to Baptists ???

SORRY Sir, that just doesn't hold water --- you see, those who profess "THAT LIE" are foolhardy individuals that are NOTHING MORE THAN **PUSHING AN AGENDA** grasping at straws.

For my part I am not haphazardly grasping at straws, BUT RATHER I AM MERELY ***SETTING FORTH THE FACTS*** HAVING COME TO ***AN UNDERSTANDING*** OF THE HEART WITH WHICH Americas FOUNDATION WAS FIRMLY ESTABLISHED

THERE MUST BE ***A MEETING Of THE MINDS*** BETWEEN us AND THE FOUNDING Fathers AND Their ORIGINAL INTENT -- you see ??? -- an individual **Can In NOWISE QUANTIFY** THE INESTIMABLE VALIDITY Of THE FOUNDING Fathers IN Their DESIRE FOR ***GOD AND Country*** WITHOUT FIRST ***COMING WHOLEHEARTEDLY ***TRULY HUMBLING himself AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS*** THAT he TOO MIGHT EXPERIENCE ***THE GOD*** THAT LIT THE FLAME WITHIN Their Hearts "FOR GOD AND Contry" !!!

So Many just ARN'T THERE YET...

85

News Item5/30/07 12:31 PM
anonymous  Find all comments by anonymous
Can I take my oath on the Dhammapada? Or the Book of Mormon? Or how about the Bhagavad Gita?

If I'm an atheist can I be sworn in on a Richard Dawkins book? Heck, how about a Spiderman comic book?

That's where this nonsense is going...

84

News Item5/30/07 11:58 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
The Constitution doesn't lose its agnosticism just because a professing Christian signed it. And again, McHenry's personal views are not public law. The *same reasoning* has been used by secularists to "prove" there is a "wall of separation" between church & state just because Jefferson discussed it in a letter to Baptists.

It disdain for logic, by disputants on both sides, that has caused such confusion on this issue.

"It is with tears that I tell you..."

How maudlin & manipulative.

83

News Item5/30/07 10:36 AM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit  Find all comments by KK
Neil

This Has Been NO RABBIT TRAIL Sir, BUT RATHER **THE CLEAR CUT PATH** That Has Been FORGED FOR us **BY TRUE TRAILBLAZERS** Of THE FAITH **AS SET FORTH** IN THEIR OWN WORDS !!!

James McHenry Signer of The Constitution said:

Neither...let it be overlooked, that public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution *of* THE HOLLY SCRIPTURES. **THE DOCTRINE** THEY PREACH, **THE OBLIGATIONS** THEY IMPOSE, **THE PUNISHMENT** THEY THREATEN, **THE REWARDS** THEY PROMISE, **THE STAMP AND IMAGE OF DIVINITY** THEY BEAR, **WHICH PRODUCES A CONVICTION** OF THEIR TRUTHS, **CAN *ONLY SECURE* TO Society**, **ORDER** AND **PEACE**, AND TO Our Courts of Justice and Constitutions of Government, **PURITY**, **STABILITY**, AND **USEFULNESS**.

IN THE FACE OF **THE TRUE FACTS**/**THE TRUTH** you persist in your **INCOMMODIOUS THOUGHT PROCESSES** THAT ARE THE RESULT OF your BLATHERINGLY UNINLIGHTENED CONFIBULATION

It is with tears that I tell you -- Sir,you are IGNORANT
**THE TRUTH** HAS SEEMINGLY **ELUDED you**

You sir ARE **THE EPITOME** OF WHAT IS **AILING** America today !!!

Only a self-deluded and wickedly cathartic people could FORGET their TRUE HISTORY --- THIS **REPROACHFULLY DAMNABLE PERVERSION** IS What Will USHER IN The INEVITABLE DEMISE of a Nation

KK

82

News Item5/30/07 1:28 AM
Wayne M. | British Columbia, Canada  Find all comments by Wayne M.
Thanks Neil,

Wow, I just looked at that link you gave. I can't believe it is going to be 108F this coming Sunday down there. A/C for sure is mandatory. Temp here is 50F and the hottest it will get in June or July might be 80 or 85F for a few days. But we live with six months of winter and 7F to -4F for months with -18F for a week or so occassionaly. Keep cool there buddy.

81

News Item5/30/07 1:12 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
Wayne, it's 79F @ our home (22:10 MST), & I suppose it got near 100F during the daytime. I expect it'll exceed 110 during the summer, though the sporadic "monsoons" help a bit.

See
http://tucsoncitizen.weather.gannettonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=WEATHER01&City=Tucson&State=AZ

Popular local joke: "But it's a dry heat."

80

News Item5/30/07 1:07 AM
Wayne M. | British Columbia, Canada  Find all comments by Wayne M.
Hello Neil,

May I ask what the temperature is these days in Tucson? Must be very hot there eh.

79

News Item5/30/07 1:01 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
You've certainly awakened me to your irrelevant, tiresome rabbit-trails. I'll take those as an indication that you cannot answer my objections.
78

News Item5/29/07 9:49 PM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit  Find all comments by KK
Neil

I can't help but conclude that you are a man that DOESN'T WANT **THE TRUTH**

You're Not alone, this is of EPIDEMIC PROPORTIONS in America and you better believe the Bureaucratic Parasites in DC are well aware of this FACT

That's why THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE has been trampled under foot WITHOUT A SECOND THOUGHT

All those RECKLESS, GROSSLY IMMORAL and DISREPUTABLE DESPOTS in DC have been ever more EMBOLDENED in these latter years as they have Assessed The DUMBFOUNDED CLUELESS GULLIBILITY of this Spinlessly INATENTIVE, Politicaly MALADAPTED and Apathetically PERVERSE Social Climate

We are being SOLD OUT on so many levels

Bush Will Not LISTEN TO "We The People", he insistantly pushes his *INCORRECT* Views concerning ***ILLEAGAL*** IMMIGRATION. And our RePrEsEnTaTiVeS (???), GOD HELP us WITH these *PARIAH*, they have become the NO-HOLDS-BARED, HELL-BENT Agenda Driving BEARERS OF *MISBEGOTTEN* LEGISLATION (Hoo-doo Hoodlums) !!!

We have become the ABORTIVE From A To Z. The Godless -- Yet HYPOCRITICALLY PROFESSING TO BE One Nation Under GOD but the god this Nation OF ENTRENCHED DISCORD & LAWLESS DEBAUCHERY Holds IS NONE OTHER THAN **Satan Himself**

BUT SHHHH, Don't offend anyone. That the way you and millions of ReLiGiOnists like it ???

WAKE UP !!!

KK

77

News Item5/29/07 3:58 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
First you attack my supposed "philosophizing," then you start quoting the political philosophy of JQ Adams, who made no appeal to Scripture in the quote, incidentally. Double-standard!
76

News Item5/29/07 3:45 PM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit  Find all comments by KK
Neil
Are you given over to PHILOSOPHIZING ?

"philosophers who *DENY* THE PRINCIPLES ASSERTED IN The Declaration, *AS* SELF-EVIDENT TRUTHS" ??? Hmmm

"who DENY the *natural equality* and **INALIENABLE RIGHTS of man**" ??? Hmmm

"The grossly immoral and dishonest doctrine of **despotic State sovereignty**, The *Exclusive* Judge **OF ITS OWN** obligations, and Responsible To NO POWER on earth OR **IN HEAVEN** ??? Hmmm

despotic State sovereignty ??? = The dictatorially tyrannous rule of The State/Government deeming itself FREE FROM RULE **BY ANOTHER/OTHERS**

Just the opposite of a Democratic Repubic [*SUCH AS* OURS IS **SUPPOSE TO BE**] WHERE ALL JUST POWERS OF Government ARE DERIVED ***FROM*** THE CONSENT **OF the governed**!!!

Our Government (these RECKLESS, GROSSLY IMMORAL and DISHONEST DESPOTS in DC) have determined that their Power is NO LONGER ***FROM*** THE CONSENT ***OF the governed***!?! They have *TWARTED* THE WILL OF The People ***OVER And OVER, AGAIN And AGAIN*** AND DO NOW think themselves to be NO LONGER UNDER Our Authority OR THAT *OF HEAVEN* (**GOD ALMIGHTY**)

You SEE ??? **THIS VIOLATION** IS NOT FOUND IN *OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS*, *IT'S NOT THERE*. *The Declaration* SAYS, IT *IS NOT* in me. *The Constitution* SAYS, IT *IS NOT* in me !?! Hmmm

KK

75

News Item5/29/07 11:54 AM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
KK, Adams's quote is utterly irrelevant. He was speaking to the question of the Federalist/Whig vs. Democrat view of the Constitution. What this has to do with the "Christian Nation" argument is beyond me, since he didn't mention God explicitly, he wasn't a Framer, & that's just his opinion anyway.

"Veritas Vincit" is irrelevant too. Since you regard the reference to Pilate with suspicion, I don't think you understand my point here, but I'll pass it by for now.

I just looked up Gary deMar's book "God & Government," and in the 1st volume, he seems to agree with my thesis: the US Constitution does not mention the Biblical God, but that it has elements that are Scriptural (e.g. federalism, representation, separate powers). I add that most civilized govt's have been variously conformable to the Decalogue (e.g. laws banning murder, theft, & perjury), but that NEVER made these govt's or nations Christian.

74

News Item5/27/07 1:59 PM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit  Find all comments by KK
Neil

You've got me befuddled and "confusilated" -- HA, HA

I noticed that you made no comment on The Quote From:
"The Jubilee of the Constitution" By John Quincy Adams

DID you UNDERSTAND WHAT John Quincy Adams WAS SAYING ???

naivete ??? PLEEEEEASE...
Give me a break sir !!!
You've got to be KIDDING me !?!?!

"Do you really think "proving" we were once a Christian nation (whether politically or socially) is going to impress people with hardened hearts, and who, like Pontius Pilate, do not even know, or care, what truth is?"

Funny that you should choose Pontius Pilate as your example --- Hmmm

Pilate KNEW that it was because of [that red eyed demon that lurks in the Hearts of men] ***ENVY*** that they had handed Jesus over to him.
Mt 27:18

Pilote took water and wshed his hands in the presence of the crowd and he said "I AM NOT guilty of NOR responsible for THIS RIGHTEOUS MAN'S BLOOD; see to it yourselves". Mt 27:24

I honestly feel in my Heart that GOD, *IN* Christ, *BY* HIS SPIRIT **TOUCHED Pilote** AND Pilote's wife. His hardened Heart HAD BEEN MADE ***TENDER*** TO Jesus' Plight --- CAN you SAY ***TOUCHED BY THE TRUTH***???

So in responce to your foolish query sir ------- "VERITAS VINCIT" !!!!

VERITAS VINCIT = "TRUTH CONQUERS" - THIS IS my CRY !!!

73

News Item5/27/07 12:16 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
KK, your "town crier" methods reveal your naivete. Do you really think "proving" we were once a Christian nation (whether politically or socially) is going to impress people with hardened hearts, and who, like Pontius Pilate, do not even know, or care, what truth is?
72

News Item5/26/07 7:48 PM
KK | USA ---- Veritas Vincit  Find all comments by KK
Wayne M

It has something to do with the way SA has set their master program. If you type more than 4 or 5 words consecutively in UPPERCASE their program will prompt you NOT TO DO SO.

I have found that by using astericks (***) to separate word combinations it enables me to continue in UPPERCASE.

.
Neil

**I DO NOT APOLOGIZE** FOR MY ***NO NONSESNE*** STRAIGHTFORWARD APPROACH. I think it is PERFECTLY CLEAR that I *am Not* sitting on the fence on any of these issues --- I TELL IT LIKE IT IS because to state it any other way is to be untrue to myself and to GOD --- and I would be doing you NO FAVORS by pandering to you or anyone else.

Maybe you and others have become SO ACCUSTOMED to all these Politicians talking out of both sides of their face --- YOU KNOW, like how Hilary Clinton can stand for every HELLISH AND ABOMINABLE thing and go down to Houston, Texas standing in Pulpits of Churches setting forth her FALSE PERSONA (spewing forth all her TWO-FACED DUPLICITY). She and all the others Have A Mask To Put On FOR EVERY OCCASION...

That's just NOT me !!!

I'm shrill and emotionally polemic ??? QUITE THE CONTRARY Sir !!! Merely Setting Forth **THE FACTS** WITH ZEAL AND VIGOR for these are perilous times

We NEED TRUTH NOW and playing on words is of NO USE sir !!!

71

News Item5/26/07 1:44 PM
Wayne M. | British Columbia, Canada  Find all comments by Wayne M.
KK, How do you manage to use uppercase?. I get a warning preventing me from using it. Does SA allow some members to use upper case?
70
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