GREENSBORO -- Extending the hand of fellowship to homosexuals could cost Baptist churches their affiliation with the state's largest religious group.
Delegates gathering for the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina in Greensboro this week are poised to approve a written policy that would exclude from membership churches that knowingly embrace or affirm homosexuals. The proposal, believed to be the first of its kind in the country, includes steps for triggering an investigation.
"We seem to agree on this issue," said the Rev. Stan Welch, president of the 1.2-million-member group, which last year asked a committee to devise a written policy that its executive board has since endorsed. "It's an overwhelming majority time after time. We view it as a biblical precedence of right and wrong."...
HYNR said.."But that's not what the article is saying. Its saying it will exclude churches from membership within the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina if they embrace homosexuals.
I think you will find this statement say more that you think if they embrace homosexuals. You think too kindly I belive. That it is say they wont except people to come to church. But the stament says more.. embrace also means to except them into church membership, regardless if they repent or not.
Subtle, thats the way of the devil.. There would be very few churches who would ban a Sodomite unless they were came out and proudly defending it. If you know what I means. But there greater number of Baptist churches that would except a Sodomite in membership of Christians.cheers.
Bless the Lord! I did allmost give up on you comming back to this thread.
Yes I agree with you I believe even though that theology seeks to magnify the grace of God it stemms from a man centered gospel.For the grace they proclaim is a distorted grace only seeing the forgivness of our sins,which of course it includes but true grace goes much further! Our blessed Saviour and Lord did not just pay the penalty for our sins but delivered us from the sin nature. So now are able not to sin through faith in His copleated work! Calvinism man centered gospel sees man as having a sinfull nature tha this side of eternity can not be overcome (I agree it can only be overcome by faith) and all of the word of God is interpreted in the light of that suposed fact! I do believe it is a doctrine of deamons,a verry clever one,making it look like God is central to it,while taking away the true purpose of the sacrifice of Jesus, to deliver us from sin alltogether . Not allowing those that are caught up in it to enter in to His rest ( the promised land),because of their unbelieve or wrong believe whitch suits the flesh for it allowes sinning.
Again bless you and stand firm in the true gospel of our Blessed Redeemer Jesus Christ the Lord
I'm sorry this is so late. I don't read or respond online too often.
But I did want to thank you for your kind words. Obviously it is the Word of God, that appeals to you, as it does to me, and that only by His grace and mercy.
My heart pains me to see those (like Arthur) who trust in their own ways, and reject the clear Word of God when it comes evangelism. I would assume that the same way of thinking permeates their whole life.
I'm just very grateful that God granted me a kind word from a brother. I hear the perversions of Truth and I hurt.
But your kind word comforts, consoles and refreshes.
Maybe someday we will fellowship on this earth, if not, certainly throughout eternity in the presence of the Lord, beholding His glorious face...
Thank you, Lord, for your mercy, grace and the sweet fellowship of brothers...
Qaton Chozeh from a different citizenship I take it as a privilege to read your clear and plain scriptural exposition ! One seldom finds bretheren that preach a truly Christ centred gospel,that makes no provision for the flesh.I perceive that the Holy Spirit has reveald Gods Word to you ! I would concider it a great honour if where possible to fellowship with you ! Well who knows if the Lord guids our paths to cross here on earth or if it will be in heaven. Stand fast in the proclamation of the unaduterated Gospel of Jesus Christ through the empowering of the Holy Spirit! In Jesus love, your brother because of Him !
We are not going to disagree. Here, to me, is the bottom line. Your approach would have condemned the woman who was to become my wife, to eternity in Hell. Your approach have been the stumbling block to her salvation. Because of it, you would have deprived her of salvation, sentanced her to damnation, stood in the way of God's desire that none should perish, and deny all of Heaven the celebration that occurs when a lost soul accepts Christ. If you are ok with that, I will not be able to convince you otherwise. For me, my heart breaks for each and every sould that is lost and I will not be counted among their stumbling blocks.
-cont- ‚ÄúNot only those who sin, but those who take pleasure in those who do.‚ÄĚ -- I take no pleasure in their sin nor their fate. That does not decrease my love, nor sorrow for them.
‚ÄúSinners hate the righteous.‚Äú Luke 6:27 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you‚ÄĚ
‚ÄúWhy do you think the unrighteous would want to fellowship with you?‚ÄĚ My wife did and through my teachings and the fellowship with our church and their love and teachings, she is now a Christian. Why would you deny her that?
In His service‚Ä¶ Arthur www.HaveYouNotRead.com
PS - Yes we disagree, but I also pray for you and all God's blessings upon you
-cont- Because non-Christians, like my wife, have been taught that we are a bunch of hypocritical, holier-than-thou, so-and-so‚Äôs. If we refuse people like her the ability to attend worship service, she will never change her view. And who would want to be associated with people like that???
Besides, you seem to confuse what goes on in the church building with worship. Worship does not begin nor end in that building. It is simply a gathering place. Worship is to take place every moment of every day. I cannot ban a sinner from my worship, only form the building.
‚Äúbut if they refuse the Word continue to live in sin, they cannot continue to come.‚ÄĚ I already refuted the yoking verse as you interpreted it. And again, you are not God, you cannot know what is in their heart, if they are seeking but struggling or flat refusing.
Read II Cor 6.14-18 ‚Äď yoking was covered. Romans 1.32 ‚Äď talks about nonbelievers approving of sinful actions, not believers. II Chron 19.2 ‚Äď admittedly interesting, yet Jesus says clearly that the 2nd greatest commandment is to love thy neighbor. And from the parables, we see that your neighbor is also your enemies. Jesus also says to love those that hate you. -cont-
--Reply part 1 For the ‚Äúshake off the dust‚ÄĚ verse, notice it says ‚ÄúAnd whosoever shall not receive you‚ÄĚ. If the sinner is wanting to come to church and is at least open to God‚Äôs word, they ARE receiving us.
‚ÄúYour theology would invite them to the Church, to hopefully hang around long enough to "get convinced."‚ÄĚ -- Worked for my wife. She‚Äôs saved now because we didn‚Äôt cast her out and confirm what she thought of us. So you are saying it would have just been better for the church to let her go to Hell.
‚ÄúJesus turned away those who did not seek Him in Truth‚ÄĚ ‚Äď JESUS knows who is seeking in truth and who is not because He is God. Not sure about you, but I know I‚Äôm not. I cannot be certain who is in church not really seeking, who is there seeking but having strong stumbling blocks or who is there because God‚Äôs still small voice has just begun to work on them even though their conscious self still denies Him. I‚Äôm not willing to claim to be god-like and know their heart which THEY might not even know. Instead, I will try to work on their hearts for Him.
‚ÄúYou seem to confuse Christian worship with evangelism.‚ÄĚ ‚Äď Not at all. But what you are commanding doesn‚Äôt always work. I‚Äôd dare to say works far less than it does work, especially in places like the US. Why? -cont-
You said "hiding and protecting ourselves." You ignore the plain reading of all the warnings of scripture. I said nothing of hiding. We go into the world.
Regarding protecting. Read I Cor 5.1-7. Notice they were to a) desire that the sinner was to be TAKEN AWAY from AMONG you, b) purge the leaven, c) deliver the sinners to Satan. But,you would let them fellowship. The scripture says "A LITTLE LEAVEN LEAVENETH THE WHOLE LUMP." But you disagree, and think that it won't hurt the sheep.
II Cor 6 speaks of more than yoking. It speaks of fellowship, concord, communion. Why didn't you pick those words? Do you fellowship with them while they are at your so-called worship service? Do they commune with you? Is there any concord? You are sinning.
You are not to "do whatever it takes to let the Lord use me and my church to reach the unsaved." You are to do as the Lord commands. "Obedience is better than sacrifice." You ignore commands and "reach" with your arm of flesh, contrary to the guiding of the Word. You are disobedient.
You are not the "cause" of anything. You exalt yourself too highly.
Again, one who would want to come to hear the gosple certainly can, but you would allow an unrepentant sinner fellowship forever.
(continued) 1) You said "not to refuse others of coming along. And if we don‚Äôt invite them in, how will they ever know?"
No one said anything about refusing others from coming in. You seem to confuse Christian worship with evangelism. They will know as each believer goes "into all the world preaching the gospel." The worship of God is not primarily intended to evangelize the lost.
2) You said "We are not a secret society." No one said we were. All may come and hear, but if they refuse the Word continue to live in sin, they cannot continue to come. II Cor 6, etc.
3) Further, there is no commandment saying your so-called ‚Äúsodomite lover‚ÄĚ is doing anything sinful.
Read II Cor 6.14-18, Romans 1.32, II Chron 19.2. Not only those who sin, but those who take pleasure in those who do. You are called to separate.
Loving our enemies doesn't mean ignoring their sinfulness, hanging around with them. You would be breaking the II Cor 6.14-18 commandment. Sinners hate the righteous. Why do you think the unrighteous would want to fellowship with you? It would only be if you are as sinful as them. Unless they can get something for free they hate the righteous.
Cain killed Able. But I guess Cain would love you. Whose side are you on?
I was going to let this drop, but for the sake of others who may read...
1) You said "Jesus never went to anyone and refused His word."
Oh really, what does it mean when He said "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them..." (Mk 6.11)
Our proper message is repent and believe. They who continue in sin do not hear us, for they do not repent. Therefore we are to depart, and shake the dust off our feet. Your theology would invite them to the Church, to hopefully hang around long enough to "get convinced." That is ungodly and unscriptural, but very sweet of you in the world's eyes.
And what of Paul again and again shaking the dust of his feet and leaving those who refused to believe. He even separated the brethren from those who didn't believe.
2) You said Jesus didn't refuse "His fellowship to anyone until they came to Him."
Read John 6. Jesus turned away those who did not seek Him in Truth. Those who were after something else beside eternal life were sent packing (without the free meal their flesh lusted for).
All this discussion truly causes me to wonder if you, understand the evil of sin. You seem to think that:
1) sin it is something that you can hang around with without getting burned. 2) the righteous are somehow immune from falling into sin. 3) Church discipline is not for the Church. 4) The Church is a "hospital for sinners" rather than a called out, holy people engaged in the worship of God with a mandate to preach the gospel so as to find other lost sheep. 5) God is unconcerned with the purity of the congregation.
Frankly, I think that your position is held by those still in love with their own sin, still unwilling to hate all rebellion against God's sovereign rule. It is a position that masks a love for sin, by claiming to love the sinner and maintaining the unbiblical stance of "accepting" them as they are. It allows one to believe they are saved, yet continue to taste of the world and worldliness.
Ps 1.1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Prov 6.27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?
I pray that these words will be a healing balm to you in the future when you have been burned.
1) It should have been plain that my references to the Church should never have been intrepreted as speaking of a bricks and mortar. That is a foolish interpretation. It causes me to question your depth...
2) The difference between loving our enemies, preaching the gospel to sinners, and fellowshipping and worshipping a Holy God, arm and arm with them should be plainly understood as foolishness. You cannot have a congregation of known, unrepentant sinners, mixed with the Holy people of God. You violate II Cor 6.14-18, Rom 16.17, II Thess 3.6, Rev 18.4 and a host of ensamples in the Old Testament too numerous to list.
3) The Church are the called out ones. You adulterate its purity by knowingly allowing the wicked a comfortable place.
4) The difference between an unrepentant sinner and one who stumbles due to a lingering sin nature should be apparent to all who have been born again.
5) The tares grow amongst the wheat in the "world." In the congregation of the Lord their is to be a separation.
6) "Chuck them out in 4..." Yes. Certainly not so callously as you describe, but with tears and solemn warnings to their soul and continued prayer for them.
7) "tainted by sitting in the pew with a sinner." Yes. Read I Cor 15.33. Read Haggai 2.12-13.
Qaton Wow Friend, you appear to be protecting Bricks and Mortar.? After all the Lord protects His own with the shield of Faith. Thats how they can walk in this world as strangers. How can love of sinners endanger saints.? Jesus did not come to save the righteous. You are still a sinner....Yes.?
You said 3) Separate the goats away from the sheep when identified by their fruits. 4) Keep God's flock pure and He will walk among us. How do you know which is which, when the Tares are growing amongst the Wheat until the end. If the sinner comes to church, but does not come to Christ for 5 years, - are you going to chuck them out in 4.?
Surely God will keep His flock as "pure" as He requires them to be, in the process of sanctification throughout their lives.? Do you think they might be tainted by sitting in the pew with a sinner.
Yes, but there is a difference between those that sin yet are seeking, and those who sin and blatantly refuse. Jesus never went to anyone and refused His word, His fellowship to anyone until they came to Him. He says that no one comes to Him except those that are sent. Not those that choose to repent first, then are called.
Yes we are to come out of the world, but not to refuse others of coming along. And if we don‚Äôt invite them in, how will they ever know? We are not a secret society and have no secret handshakes to get in. Further, there is no commandment saying your so-called ‚Äúsodomite lover‚ÄĚ is doing anything sinful. Christ says to LOVE our enemies. Sodomites are enemies to Christ so our command IS to love them!
I read the scriptures, I just disagree they say anything about hiding & protecting ourselves. How are we suppose to win people to Christ if we do not invite the unsaved to our churches to hear God's word?
The lady that became my wife was not saved. The Lord used me & my church to work in her & she accepted Christ. Through me alone, that would not have happened because she thought the church was full of stuffy, self-righteous, bible-thumping dullards. It was not until attended services that she found that was untrue and her heart was opened. Had I protected my church from that then heathen, she'd still be of the lost.
Inviting them to church is in no way 'yoking' ourselves to them. It is reaching out to them with God's love and His Word. There is no bond there, no yoke. We are not then bound to them nor to their leading as if we were yoked. We are simply trying to fullfil the great comission in making disciples.
If it is shameful that I do whatever it takes to let the Lord use me and my church to reach the unsaved and bring them into God's family, then I am totally ok with being shameful. For even one less person going to hell is a celebration in Heaven. I will not be the cause of one less person joining us.