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RELIGION, CURRENT EVENTS, TECHNOLOGY Subscribe to the breaking newsWhat is RSS?
FRONT PAGE  |  7/25/2014
WEDNESDAY, APR 12, 2006  |  25 comments
Author: Shroud of Turin wrongly condemned


Image from Shroud of Turin

A new book says the controversial Shroud of Turin – said to bear the image of the crucified Jesus Christ – has been wrongly condemned as a fraud and desecrated due to serious errors in its study and conservation.

"The Rape of the Turin Shroud – how Christianity's most precious relic was wrongly condemned, and violated," by William Meacham, contends the shroud was dismissed as a medieval fake by the general public after poorly planned Carbon-14 dating in 1988.

The linen also suffered major damage in 2002 through what Meacham calls an ill-advised and secretly executed restoration "conducted for cosmetic and misguided conservation purposes."

The author points out that in the early 1980s, the shroud was at the pinnacle of its prestige, as a considerable number of academics and scientists thought it could be the burial cloth of Christ. ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 25 user comment(s)
News Item8/21/06 10:33 AM
DragoonEnNoir | a Mustard Seed Field  
Hello everyone

I guess my thought on this is simple. Why does any of this matter?

If it is not Christ's shroud, is he any less my Lord or my Saviour?

If it is his shroud, do I love and serve him any more because of it?

25

News Item8/20/06 3:00 PM
SB | Texas  
The shroud's a fake and the Bible backs that up. I believe it's in John's gospel that he says there was a separate head cloth covering that after the resurrection; it was found folded up and put to the side. The shroud image clearly has a head to toe image, so the shroud is an obvious fake.

Is the Bible right, or is the shroud right? I'll place money on the Bible.

24

News Item4/22/06 2:10 AM
Rudi | Sydney  
Danial Lee Ford,
you are right about vows,it is not wrong to make them in the New Testament . The Nazarite vow is not possible for that one does need the temple to be able to fullfill it while in Pauls day it was still there the N/T teaches us that we are the Temple of the Holy Ghost.What I mean to say is that even the Nazarite vow can only be fullfilled under the law!

No I do not need Acts.21:21 to argue no passover feast for us as I said the lam in it points to Jesus and is eaten simelar to the sacrifices in the temple it was given to the Israelites in Aegipt befor the law.Everithing surounding it cleaning the house (tempel)of leaven ext. all for the purpose of purification.So I believe it is like a sacrifice pointing to the Lam of God which has been offered once and for all that all sacrifices cease.

P.S. I got swearing confused with the vow.
Love Rudi

23

News Item4/21/06 11:21 PM
Daniel Lee Ford | Spring Arbor, Mich.  
Rudi,
reading Acts 21:26" Then Paul took the men, and the next day

purifying himself with them

entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of

purification,

until that an offering should be offered for every one of them."
with Num 6:9
"then he shall shave his head in the day of his cleansing, on the seventh day shall he shave it. "
seems to mean that Paul shaved his head at that point as part of the Nazarite 'purification":

It does seem to be a bit foggy here: like you say, but IF one takes the implication that Engineer is taking, that Paul wouldn't offer any sacrifice other than his hair, the time line does seem to work for him to shave his head back in Acts 18:18, if for no other reason than to keep him from having SUPER long hair- if he wasn't planning on getting back to the Jerusalem temple for 3 years.

I take your 4/21 remark to not include Paul as eating a Passover lamb- is that right? I can't picture him supporting the wrong implications that would have for the new meaning of the Lord's table.

Engineer's use of the Nazarite vow as being allowable under the Acts 15 agreement looks OK to me, but you seem to think it not under the New testament- where would it conflict?
(it is voluntary)

22

News Item4/21/06 10:41 PM
Rudi | Sydney  
Engineer,why then did Paul shave his hair at the beginning of that vow I did not read that it must also be shorn at the beginning of the vow? The fact that he shore his hair seems to nsugest he was at the end of such a vow in the first place!Also in Acts. 21:24 it says that only the four were to shave their hair not including Paul!But as I said this whole thing was not in line with New Testament teaching and as Gods Word is at all times accurate it is writen for historic purposeb like other things in the Old Testament it was not God ordaind for us to obey!
Love in Jesus Rudi
21

News Item4/21/06 9:17 AM
Engineer | USA  
Rudi:

the Num 6 ref.again: (time line)
Paul

1. shaved his head
This Paul did at Cenchrea just before setting out on his voyage into Syria (Acts 18:18).

2. let it grow until he got to the temple about 2 1/2 years/3 yrs. later
(so that is how he "carried it around!")
"shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow....."

Num. 6:5 "All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head:

until the days be fulfilled,

in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow....."

3. cut it according to the Num. 6:18 method
to cast it into the fire
"....and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings."
===
approx. time between 'vow' and 'temple'
===
acts19:8"for the space of three months,
Acts 19:19:10 And this continued by the space of two years;...
19:21 After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem
1 Cor.16:5 Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia..."
Paul wrote 1 Cor. w/about 2 1/2 years of hair growth

20

News Item4/21/06 6:20 AM
Rudi | Sydney  
Cont.
It seems to me the beliving Jews of the time still had difficulty in entering themselves in to the freedom they granted the Gentile belivers.I belive to many Jewish bretheren this can still be a strugel for I know with the Passover meal they offten uphold a Old Testament ritual which is a wonderfull ritual to our instruction as all of the Old Testament is but the lam that is eaten is really a sacrifice not only pointing back but also forward to our Lords death !
What do you think ?
Rudi
19

News Item4/21/06 6:10 AM
Rudi | Sydney  
Dear Engineer,
yes you ar right about the Nazarite vow I got it wrong thanks for Num.6 !
Nevertheless I can not agree with you with this scenario.Do you mean to say that Paul carried his hair around with him fo 2 1/2 years so he could offer it in Jerusalem ? Well the only New Testament offering we ought to make acording to Paul is our body as a living sacrifice.Also we are told by not to yake vows at all. I know you are aware of that I just mention it because I belive there may have been some leftover Pharasee in him to take a vow at all. But what is happening in Acts.21:21-26 is a situation in which Paul is told what to do to apease the Jews and for that reason not of his making.It states very clear in v.24 that they are trying to show Paul keeps the law and to do that thei must do things according to the law,which is not right but considering they are all Jews it is easy to do.We do it all the time now our Churches become worldly to atract the world!God would not allow it though because in V.27 we read before the time of purification was over the Jews got hld of Paul and saved him from perfoming a sacrifice in submission to the leaders at Jerusalem.It is interesting to note in v.25 the Gentiles needed not to observe all that the Jews had to.
18

News Item4/17/06 10:18 AM
Engineer | USA  
Havin' a hairy fit...
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/nazarite.html
The vow of a Nazarite involved these three things,
abstinence from wine and strong drink,
refraining from cutting the hair off the head during the whole period of the continuance of the vow, and
the avoidance of contact with the dead...
For some reason, probably in the midst of his work at Corinth, Paul took on himself the Nazarite vow. This could only be terminated by his going up to Jerusalem to offer up the hair which till then was to be left uncut.

(Check the timeline
4/17/06 8:48 AM
w/the ref. to 1 Cor.16:5 to figure out how hirsute Paul was while writing 1 Cor.)

But it seems to have been allowable for persons at a distance to cut the hair, which was to be brought up to Jerusalem, where the ceremony was completed. This Paul did at Cenchrea just before setting out on his voyage into Syria (Acts 18:18).
(Acts 21:23-26), at the feast of Pentecost...
"The ceremonies involved took a longer time than Paul had at his disposal, but the law permitted a man to share the vow if he could find companions who had gone through the prescribed ceremonies, and who permitted him to join their company...
the Nazarite cut off his hair at the door and threw it into the fire under the peace-offering.

17

News Item4/17/06 9:43 AM
Engineer | USA  
So Chris M, what are you on that makes you read the word 'hippy' somewhere?
Have YOU read Num. 6?
Paul shaved his head Acts 18:18
as part of a vow
what vow?
My answer is out of God's word
(you may take a shot at a different speculation, but you will note, all I'm doing is quoting God's word)
My explaination allows you to answer a skeptic about WHAT Paul offered later in the Temple.
Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them. "
I don't think a Christian can offer an offering (other than hair from his head)
in the temple, without a denial that Christ took abolished the system of sacrifice.
Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

So Chris, you can answer 2 questions
1. What was the vow Paul took?
2. What did Paul offer in the Temple?
see my 4/13/06 8:42 AM for why this resolves a theological problem.

As I'm quoting scripture, and you're just offering ad hominems, your statement has no logic.

16

News Item4/17/06 9:05 AM
Chris M | Australia  
You think that Paul was a Nazarite and that when he wrote 1 Corinthians he was a hippy who had not cut his hair for 2 1/2 years?

What are you on today?

Rudi is quite right here, this is utter nonsense.

15

News Item4/17/06 9:03 AM
Engineer | USA  
Jim is right about
"no relics"

Martin Luther said that if one assembled all the 'relics' of the 'cross of Christ' in Europe alone, there'd be enough wood to build a Cathedral bigger than the one in Rome!

the main interest I'd have in the Shroud/ Sudarium is that it is at least they're great counterfeits.

Aspects of

1.how people died in Roman execution

2.The effects of death on a person

3.wrapping/embalming a corpse

that are learned while trying to debunk these possible forgeries
are useful in rebutting an ignorant lie that somehow Jesus might have 'survived the cross' and 'come out of the tomb on his own'.

That is, even looking at this as an attempt to forge a cloth showing what might have been a burial cloth forces the skeptic to encounter the total implausibility of a non-resurrection explaination for the empty tomb.

Gary Habermas goes into great detail showing these kind of detail, in prose form to rebut the 'swoooooon' theory: the Shroud just does the overview of these facts with an 'illustration'.

14

News Item4/17/06 8:48 AM
Engineer | USA  
Rudi:You need to READ Num. 6: normally NOT lifelong vows:
Acts 18:18 And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.
1.
What vow can you name, other than Num. 6 in which the head would be shorn?
Num. 6:5 All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head:
until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.....
6:18 And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation,(Rabbinical commentary allowed Diaspora Jews to do this at a synagogue)" and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings."acts19:8"for the space of three months,
Acts 19:19:10 And this continued by the space of two years;...
19:21 After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem
1 Cor.16:5 Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia..."
Paul wrote 1 Cor. w/about 2 1/2 years of hair growth
13

News Item4/17/06 7:27 AM
Rudi | Australia  
Engineer
Sorry but I have to disagree with you about Paul taking the Nazarite vow!
-first , nothing in scripture sais that.
-as far as I know the only one mentiond in the Bibel under that vow is Samson and in Jud.13:5 it maks it clear to be under the Nazarite vow no razor must come on the head from birth until death.So a Nazarite vow can not be taken up at any time in ones life.
-even if it was possible a Nazarite vow is not to cut ones hair but paul did the opposite in the verse you quote!
-you make a lot of assumptions about the vow in Acts 18. One to be the same as in 21 which in the context maks it clear is not the case at all and it is not Paul that shaves his hair but 4 others!Two what kind of vow it is is not mentioned , in my opinion it is safer not to guess.
12

News Item4/17/06 5:22 AM
Matthew | Australia  Contact via email
No.
11

News Item4/14/06 1:29 PM
TONY LOPEZ-CISNEROS | CHICAGO, IL, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA  
COULD IT BE THAT THE REASON WHY THE SATANIC-VATICANIST SYMPATHIZING/CONTROLLED MEDIA & PRESS IS CONSTANTLY REPORTING ON THIS "RELIC"/SUPPOSED "IMAGE OF 'CHRIST'" IN/ON THE SHROUD OF TURIN IS BECAUSE:

IT MAY VERY WELL BE THE MOLD BY WHICH THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST WILL BE CAST ? ! ?

WHICH IMAGE OF THE BEAST WILL BOTH SPEAK AND CAUSE THAT AS MANY AS WORSHIP NOT THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST SHOULD BE KILLED ! ? !

10

News Item4/13/06 2:17 PM
Jim | Nebraska  
Christianity has no relics.

In the Schmalkaldic Articles, Martin Luther wrote, "The relics, in which there are found so many falsehoods and tomfooleries concerning the bones of dogs and horses, that even the devil has laughed at such rascalities, ought long ago to have been condemned, even though there were some good in them; and so much the more because they are without the Word of God; being neither commanded nor counseled, they are an entirely unnecessary and useless thing. But the worst is that [they have imagined that] these relics had to work indulgence and the forgiveness of sins [and have revered them] as a good work and service of God, like the Mass, etc."

The Ian Paisley site also remarks on relics,

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=relics2

9

News Item4/13/06 9:00 AM
Engineer | USA  
Heb. 12:2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
despising the shame,

and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
8

News Item4/13/06 8:57 AM
Engineer | USA  
Don:
why Paul had long hair for a while:
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/nazarite.html
The vow of a Nazarite involved refraining from cutting the hair off the head during the whole period of the continuance of the vow...
For some reason, probably in the midst of his work at Corinth, Paul took on himself the Nazarite vow. This could only be terminated by his going up to Jerusalem to offer up the hair which till then was to be left uncut. But it seems to have been allowable for persons at a distance to cut the hair, which was to be brought up to Jerusalem, where the ceremony was completed. This Paul did at Cenchrea just before setting out on his voyage into Syria (Acts 18:18).

(Acts 21:23-26), at the feast of Pentecost, Paul fulfilled the Nazarite vow.

"The ceremonies involved took a longer time than Paul had at his disposal, but the law permitted a man to share the vow if he could find companions who had gone through the prescribed ceremonies, and who permitted him to join their company. This permission was commonly granted if the new comer paid all the fees required from the whole company (fee to the Levite for cutting the hair and fees for sacrifices), and finished the vow along with the others.
Nazarites cut off hair at the door and threw it into the fire.

7

News Item4/13/06 8:42 AM
Engineer | USA  
Don,
When Paul wrote the verse you cite,
1 Cor.11:14,he had long hair, having taken a Nazarite vow,

Acts 18:18"And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow. "
Shaved his head , and would not cut it again till his vow was completed:
Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing save only that, they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
(Thus saying he'd set a bad example if he offered an animal or grain sacrifice: since Christ fulfilled all those)
ACT 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them."
For two years Paul took the shame of his longer and longer hair upon himself, until he offered up his hair in the temple.
(Else, what did he offer in the Temple?)
Jesus, though not a Nazarite, could take a vow in the same way, having set his face like flint to go to Jerusalem to take the shame of the Cross.

6
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