LORETO, Italy -- A frail Pope John Paul II put three more Roman Catholics on the road to sainthood during a visit to a hilltop shrine Sunday, struggling at times but cheered on by 200,000 pilgrims.
He seemed drained, seated in a wheeled throne in glittering green vestments, at the end of the three-hour ceremony in 86 degree heat. The large crowd broke into applause when he told them: ''The pope greets you, supports you and blesses you from the heart.''
The 84-year-old pontiff, who has Parkinson's disease and crippling knee and hip ailments, read his homily with difficulty.
Mike - you have summed up exactly my thoughts - thank you!
Walt - you have made some excellent points, and I agree with you entirely. I do believe in using strong language to condemn false teaching. You may have noticed the church I belong to - my minister is Rev Kyle Paisley!
And yes, I do believe that we should deal most firmly those who lead others away from Christ, for their torment in Hell will be even more extreme for their wickedness here on earth. As Mike says, it is an extremely fine line between damning heresy and giving the Gospel in love.
May the Lord Himself show us and teach us the wisdom we need in dealing with the terrible sin by which we are surrounded.
I am still praying for Lance, that he will be shown the truth and be led away from the church of Rome, which has led so many millions to Hell. One day, when ALL eyes shall behold our Saviour coming again, will we know whether our prayers for Lance have been answered. I hope so.
Lance seems like a very nice man. He has been very congenial on this site. However, one thing he never does is answer any questions with the Scriptures. As has been noted, people who have been regenerated by God's Spirit try the spirits to see whether they are of God or not. (1 John 4:1-6.) I do believe that there is a time for strong words, but we do really need to make sure that they are not carnal and of the flesh but that they are really from a heart of zeal for the Lord. There can be a fine line and I'm sure I've crossed it at times--being carnal instead of spirit lead. May the Lord give us all grace and wisdom in dealing with false teaching and doctrine.
I would add the following from our Pastor's sermon to my former Roman Catholic brethren:
"As I close today, the resurrected Christ closes with a most sobering truth in Mark 16:16: āHe that believeth not shall be damned.ā Those who do not lay hold of Jesus Christ and His righteousness by faith alone will suffer everlasting condemnation and torment in hell.
We can fool a lot of people, but we cannot fool God. Are you trusting in Christ alone for your eternal salvation? Or are you trusting in your Baptism, or in your membership in the Church, or in your coming to the Lordās Supper, or even in your faith or repentance to save you? Saving faith is resting in Christ alone and His righteousness. Saving faith is not looking outward to the works you have done or inward to your faith, love, repentance, or anything else to save you. Saving faith is looking to the righteousness of Christ, to the forgiveness of Christ, and to the life of Christ and reaching out by faith to receive those promises made to you in the Gospel.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved! And if you have believed in Christ already, renew your faith in Christ as you remember the promises made to you in your Baptism."
You have made a great point on how to witness to the lost and how to help lead others to understanding the sufficiency of Christ alone. The points you made are spot on from my point of view.
Now, how do you help the obstinate and those who lead others away from the Truth? Would you go beyond calling them sinners in the eyes of a Holy God?
Do you think that the Scripture gives us warrant to defend the Cause of Jesus Christ against public heretical teachers and others who promote evil?
Do you think it would be fair to call the Pope the Man of Sin who sits in the Temple of God who blasphemes God, or would that be a bit over the top?
As you know, he speaks public with very kind words and teaches in the name of Jesus Christ daily as he is the leader of the World's Largest Christian Church. All of his followers profess verbally Jesus Christ is the son of God.
Lance speaks with authority, with kindness, with a meek heart, but perhaps his teaching and instruction will lead others to Rome and ultimately to hell.
Would you handle the leaders who profess their doctrine different then those who show a real desire and humble spirit to study to show theirselves approved?
Perhaps you do not see any distinction as I did growing up a Roman Catholic.
Don't get me wrong - as I said in my first comment, I am a Protestant Christian who thoroughly opposes all that Rome stands for and teaches. It is a religion that will damn people to Hell, and it is terrifying that so many are caught up in it.
My point is, however, that you will never lead a Catholic to Christ for salvation if you merely engage in mocking his religion and calling him a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Many Catholics have been lovingly and kindly led to the Lord, as all sinners should be. When you preach the Gospel to sinners, do you mock what they believe and tell them they are all wolves in sheep's clothing?
No, a Gospel preacher will tell them they are sinners - that is only right - but he will then show them that Christ died to save them, that all they need to do is to trust in Christ for full salvation, and that they need no other way to be made right with a God who is angry with sin. Christ's all atoning work on Calvary's cross was sufficient for ALL sinners and that is what we need to put across in a caring, loving way. I'm sure you've all heard a Gospel preacher pleading with sinners to repent and believe from his heart - a heart filled with love for sinners. He doesn't slam them, and then tell them he is doing it out of love. His actions will show it.
Very good points, Walt. I should have pointed out that there were more articles on Opus Dei, when I went to the BBC website directly:
And search for Opus Dei. Some had rather spritely titles. However, Ian Paisley site still seems to be your one-stop shopping spot for good Catholic information. All you have to do was put Opus Dei in its search function, and the one article that comes up is very good.
I wish Lance had addressed the issue of the Catholic Church's acceptance of stolen money. In many countries, accepting stolen property is a criminal offense, and is never Christian when it is knowingly done. This is one reason as the article on Mother Teresa (see that one on the Paisley website also) is so good.
I would suggest that Lance should reconsider his belonging to an organization that is the Church to the Mafias, for that reason alone.
I would like to add that Lance has been on this site for a long time and he loves Rome and uses kind words to support her doctrine.
For many who do not know the pitfalls of the Roman Antichrist, this method of kindness and persuasion can lead (as you have argued) Christians to 'come and be persuaded to our Church in Rome'.
Without the use of Scripture to rebuke and correct the teachings and kind words of Lance, others support his kind words and 'agree to disagree'.
Rome "is" and "has" led billions to follow her through kind words. I'll leave it to you to determine if this is good for the soul or not.
Lord willing, Lance will look up some of these Scriptures that many have shared with him, and work out the truth with diligent and faithful biblical study.
If not, although a bit harsh, our Lord wrote:
"Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God...And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Lk.9:60,62).
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Ex.20:3).
NIGEL. i think those on this site have been very gracious to lance, but are we not to reprove them(2 tin 16). the LORD didnt clear the temple with words of kindness,or the pharisees,and scribes. those who have said something on here to lance have spoke with verses of the gosple and in love for his soul. i wonder would the doc be so gracious remem(2 john 9-10). SAID WITH LOVE IN THE LORD
I am a Bible-believing Christian who belongs to a Free Presbyterian Church.
However, having read through this string of comments, I have to say that I am not altogether proud of the way in which some comments have been directed towards Lance from Australia.
I also have to say that the most graciousness that I read in all the comments comes from Lance.
Hey, Protestants - let's not indulge in fleshly 'Catholic-bashing'. By going in for an argumentative kind of debating, attacking the other person's beliefs in an unloving way, will do absolutely nothing to convincing that other person to accept your own views.
Naturally, as a Protestant, I do not hold to any of the views that Lance espouses. However, rather than rubbishing what he holds to, with a kind of 'we're right, you're wrong, so there!' attitude, I would want him to know that I really appreciate the fact that he is visiting this website, that I hope he will listen to some of the semons on it, and that I will be personally praying for him, that the Lord will reveal Himself to him.
We live in an increasingly wiked, strife-torn world. We need to be lovingly pointing others to the Saviour, bidding them come to Him for 'behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation' 2 Cor 6:2.
Lance, it was a news item. I thought it was really too bland to get the truth across. Echevera (sp!) was no saint, and I said, when his case was coming up before the Pope, there were a group of -Catholics- trying to get him not to make this guy a saint. Opus Dei, is another outfit like the Jesuits, but was designed to have a more broad appeal, unfortunately. Anyway, except for it's blandness and really lack of negative details the BBC had an interesting article, and the Realplayer file is what I looked at. Yes, Joan, needs a lot of kicking around, but then she is a perfect example of real reason the Catholic Church makes saints of people who aren't Christians. This shouldn't surprise anyone, anymore, though.
lance. do you believe that the priest has turned the wafer into the boady and blood of CHRIST. you have said before that you take part in the mass,do you think your taking the flesh and blood of CHRIST. do you think it is rigth that the priest/r.c.c should with hold the cup from you,when not only the deciples partook of the cup but also the boady of believers in 1 cor 10-16/../ 1 cor 11 , is the priest/r.c.c therfore not dissobeying the plain teaching of scripture lance going by all you have said on this site,i have come to the conclusion that you are a wolf in sheeps cothing but i pray GOD will give you the SPIRIT of discernment (prov 21-16)please read.
r u ready, I wasn't ignoring your question, it's just that I'm not checking out Sermonaudio 24 hours a day.
After the consecration the Body of Christ retains the appearance and properties of bread. If left long enough it will go mouldy, and when this happens it will revert to being just bread and nothing else.
Usually it won't bleed if you bite or prick it. Reports of such things happening are extremely rare and will only be accepted by church authorities after the most careful investigation.
I see you ignored my question Lance,okay,try another,to any Roman Catholic.When you take the bread at mass,as it has been changed into the real body,does the wafer/bread bleed when you bite into it?If not,why not?
As I said, Lance, Dave Hunt, is a Christian who is actually moved closer to some Catholic ideas through the years, had most of the same material presented in a different way.
I don't know what is so surprising that the great portion of Catholic saints -- arn't from a Christian perspective. Joan of Arc, was a cross dresser, a soldier, or a bloody killer, however you want to phrase it, and perhaps even insane. However, the Catholic Church made her a saint to please the French, a purely political motivation.
The founder of Opus Dei, lived the good life, and was promoted to Catholic sainhood, to help out one of Pope John Paul II's favorite organizations. To call Opus Dei even reactionary is a kindness. A very tame report on it can be found on the BBC site, should give anyone reason to question the whole sainthood making process. The use of stolen money to "buy" an "in" with God is reprehensible. The idea that you can buy God's favor with honestly gotten money is foolish.
The article by Dr Clive Gillis on Mother Teresa did indeed depend on other sources, the main ones being an organisation of Indian skeptics (i.e., atheists), and the militant atheist Christopher Hitchins.
I think ianpaisley.org should at least use Christian sources.
And Albert from N Ireland, your question about the bread and the cup is an old one, forever being asked. Christ is considered to be present in body, blood, soul and divinity both under the form of bread and under the form of wine.
The laity may receive Jesus just under the form of bread, but the priest is expected to receive under both forms, as the disciples did at the Last Supper.
lance and albert k. question....as you are still in the r.c.c,how can you partake of the eucharist/mass,when the cup is witheld from you. in the new testement church, you partake of both the bread and the wine 1 cor 11-28,would CHRIST not want you to take all that he instituted,and as he said the blood was in the cup ,then it cant be in the bread