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Vietnam vet prays publicly to see California town saved
Gene Cooper prays near the corner of Walnut and School streets in downtown Lodi on most Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays from 11 a.m. to noon. The disabled veteran has been praying for the city of Lodi and its residents for the past two years. (Amy Weddell
Gene Cooper is dedicated to helping everyone in Lodi and Stockton find salvation through God and Jesus Christ. And Cooper, 62, just does it in a most public way.
On most Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays beginning at 11 a.m., Cooper spends an entire hour kneeling at the northeast corner of School and Oak streets near the post office.
He does the same thing from 2 to 3 p.m. on the same days at Hammer Lane and Lower Sacramento Road in Stockton.
"I'm praying for the salvation of Lodi and Stockton," said Cooper, a Stockton resident. "There's a lot of people who don't know the Lord; I'm not in a big hurry to let people go to hell."
Jayhawk, Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth..
Of course i am not saying everybody who disagrees with me twists the scripture, neither do i say that i am the only one who loves Christ and His people dearly ,i fail on loving the saints more than any.
Jayhwak, you make comments such as i have a dilemma in my interprtation of 1 Timothy 2:1, because it would mean that i should then pray to those men in hell,as well as on earth.
That is akin to saying that when God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), He is bound by Himself to be commanding all men in hell to repent. (Hence twisting scripture and mocking God.)
...there is exhortation in Ephesians six for the saints to pray and make supplication for all saints, so that is limited to beleivers, even though we do not know all the names of all the saints!
You have said you are not trying to trip me up,or make me look a fool, and as i assume you are a Christian, then you would not be lying,but all i do is try and compare scripture with scripture.
You still have not told us where you are spiritually, maybe not saved? So i am still very hesitant to call you a brother or sister.
So I guess anyone that disagrees with you twists Scriptures and is mocking God ??? I am also guessing you believe that you are the only one who "loves Christ dearly, and so love His people dearly" ???
I know one person who would agree with me Norm...it is your pastor...since you are a Calvinist...i'm assuming you go to church that has a Calvinist pastor...you should have a chat with him about it...if he believes all 5 points of TULIP...i guarantee he'll disagree with your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:1...that it means "all men everywhere". :-)
As a matter of fact...You are the first Calvinist I've ever known that interpreted 1 Timothy 2:1 that way...
So Christ died for all our sins, except unbelief? Is not unbelief sin? How about Judas Iscariot, or Korah, Dathan or Abiram? Did he die for these men as well. With regard to those around him, read Zec 12:10 for more insight as to whom the savior is referring to. Also read the intercessary prayer of the Lord in John 17, particularly verse 2, and 20.
Hi, Believer, "..forgive them for they know not what they do." Those are His words, not my own. He was being crucified, paying for the sin of all of us, yet asked for forgiveness, not for mankind in general, but for the crowd around Him, those doing the physical deed of crucifixion. They "know not what they do" because they did not know they were putting to death the Son of God, which would have been unforgiveable.
Psalm 2 is a prophetic Psalm. The things spoken of in it began with the persecution of the church as written in Acts, and continue today. Some are yet to be fulfilled. The Lord has yet to be given the nations as His inheritance, nor has He yet broken them with a rod of iron.
Mike, I think you are very much mistaken when you say that Christ was asking the Father to forgive them (the world or non-believers); "for they know not what they do." I don't find anywhere in scripture where what the Son prays to the Father for is not granted. Nor is the Father's will distinct and separate from the son and Holy Spirit. Please read Psalm 2. Both the Jews and Gentiles(who comprise the entire world) knew exactly what they were doing. It is clear from scripture that he has in mind only those whom he would die for to give his life as ransom for.
Hi Jayhawk, About "..you would be praying contrary to the way Jesus praying in John 17:9."
The Lord was praying specifically for his disciples, not to set us an example for prayer methods. He was about to be crucified and His prayer was that the Father would protect them, sanctify them, give them unity, joy and so on.
John 17:9 needs to be understood in the context of John 17:6-19.
The Lord doesn't pray for the world because He is interceding for believers. He gave His life for the world. Should He do more? But He did pray for non-believers while on the Earth. Need an example? "...Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
To say that praying for all men means praying individually for 5 billion doesn't fly. Do you ever pray for your country? It certainly needs it! That doesn't mean praying for 280 million people individually, does it?
Sigh. Jayhawks, the Lord knows all five billion people on the planet, but i do not, so can only pray generally.With respect, you made some rather outrageous comments,twisting the Word of God.Be warned, God is not mocked.
...I am running into dilemmas all the time ! Seems to be how my life is...
You seem to have it all sussed out, no matter what anyone says, so i leave you to it. Sorry,i have had enough of discussing doctrinal things on these forums, i always hoped for some warm Christian fellowship with those who loved Christ dearly, and so loved His people dearly,as this is far more profitable but i am beginning to think such Christians do not exist. But then i have to look into my own heart as well.
I spend my whole time trying to encourage the saints, but so little in return.
Anyway, keep studying Jay, and have a good day, but please, i am done with discussing these verses from 1 Timothy, i have set my stall out, using scripture, and not carnal reasoning.Somebody else will have to take it up with you. Thanks.
You run into a dilemma in 1 Timothy 2:1 if it is to fit in Mike's interpretation...it is not humanly possible to pray for all 5+ Billion people on the planet...and then you must also offer prayers for every person that has yet to be born...and also you must pray for every person that has ever existed since the world was formed about 6,000 years ago...starting with Adam...this may sound ridiculous...but if you are going to pray for ALL MEN EVERYWHERE...you have to pray for even the ones that are no longer living...whether they are in Heaven or in Hell.
Not only that...you would be praying contrary to the way Jesus praying in John 17:9 .
In one sermon I listened to on here...the pastor gives an interpretation that I tend to agree with... that 1 Timothy 2:1 is not telling us to pray for all men everywhere...but is only telling us to pray for Kings and men in authority...so the "all men" mentioned in 1 Timothy 2:1 refers to the Kings and men in authority.
That being said...your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:6 has some merit to it.
Hi Jayhawk, just logged in to see that Mike has done what i believe is right summary on verses one and two, although i appreciate what you had to say too. But Mike i believe is nearer the mark. Thanks Mike.
As for verese 4, even a lot of "Calvinists" accept that all means all men everywhere, but does not interfere with His decree that only some will be saved. (Otherwise this means salvation is in the hands of the sinner, instead of salvation is of the Lord.) For a better explanation, try Matthew Henry's commentary, which takes the view i have just mentioned.
This may be the right view.?
However, personally i do not see how the Lord can will every person to be saved specifically, for they all would be! Why do i say that? Because in Job 23:13 we see that what God's soul desireth,even that he doeth!, so all mankind will be saved!
We do know that some texts in scripture support more than one explanation without contradiction, and it is possible this text does as well.
Hi Jayhawk, May I inject a thought on 1Tim.2:1 and 2:2? We needn't think of them as mutually exclusive. As an example, I might sometimes pray for "my children", "the children", "all the children", etc. Then again I might pray for them by name, individually. Likewise, if someone asks you to pray for their children, and in the next statement asks for prayer for a specific child, that child is still one of the children of the previous request.
The kings and all who are in authority(1Tim.2:2) are included in 1Tim.2:1. The specific exhortation in 2:2 was given for a specific reason which is stated in the second clause: "..that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence."
Here is my explanation of why "all men" may not mean "all men everywhere" in verse 1:
I think we need to take the verse (2:1) in its context and look at 1 Timothy 2:2 with it...
1 Timothy 2:1: I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 1 Timothy 2:2: For kings, and for all that are in authority;
If Paul is telling us to pray for all men everywhere in verse 1...why is he telling us to also pray for "kings, and for all that are in authority" in verse 2" ...since they would have already have been included in the "all men everywhere" of verse 1?
And if you think about it...it is not humanly possible for us to literally pray for every single person that is on the planet...unless you pray for the world in general...but no one can pray for all 5+ Billion people in the world individually.
Maybe you can give me an better explanation than I just gave...I'm not mocking you...nor Calvinism...nor do I want to make you look like a fool...I just want to get your thoughts :-)
However...if "all" does mean "all men everywhere" in verse 1...as you say it does...please explain to me why "all men" doesn't mean "all men everywhere" in verses 2:4 and 2:6.
Jayhawks, before getting into any kind of theological discussion, i need to know a bit more about you, as you seem to have a mocking attitude to "Calvinism", and to want to trip me up ,and maybe to make myself look a fool,so i have learnt to be very wary about people asking me to comment on scripture now on these threads.
Just one more post on this thread for now. (To Jayhawk)
Firstly, you seem to be well acquainted with what the cults teach, so i submit to your superior knowledge about the J.W.'s . No worries.
...secondly, you hesitate in calling Gene Cooper a "brother",so i ask should we hesitate in calling you a brother/sister then, as i can not find much about you,(apart from 5 comments on sermonaudio ?), not even your real name, unless it is Jay Hawk ?
Jayhawks, you are right about the Lord not praying for the world, only His own in John 17, that is what scripture says, and so that is what i accept. i also would like to add that the Lord intercedes for them, His own, in glory now, Hebrews 7:25. If this is "Calvinism", then it is Biblical.
Now , regarding, would i disagree with Cooper,or you, or i, praying for the people in a location,well, i have Biblical warranty, to do so. Nehemiah 1:6
In the N.T. , i find warrant in 1 Timothy 2:1
Regarding whether it should be done in the way that Mr.Cooper is doing , comments have been made already by you, me, Walt, and James, which all have some relevance in them, and so not to be dismissed out of hand.
If we passed Mr.Cooper in the street, would we encourage him? Discourage him? Ignore him? Or try and show him a more excellent way?
This man is praying to be seen...could you picture Jesus or the Apostle Paul kneeling down before a sign that reads "I AM PRAYING FOR THE WORLD" ...the Pharisees would have loved this idea, because they wanted people to know that they were praying...Mr. Cooper wants the publicity also...that is why he has the huge sign.
And Norman... if I remember correctly from reading your numerous posts...you are a Calvinist? Wouldn't you be opposed to someone praying for the entire city since Jesus prayed "not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me" (John 17:9) ??? ;-)