Here is a perfect example in what happens to one who buys into the heretical teachings of Sinless Perfection, who want to deny the Biblical Orthodox teachings of Adam Federal headship, that one is fallen through the first Adam. People will perish as they are hooked line & sinker into bad theology of Pelagius, that leads to Hersey & spiritual destruction to ones soul, if you are buying into another gospel that in reality is attacking the Character of the Triune God of the Bible alone.
The heretical teacher in the video is Jesse Morrell, who has many Youtube videos, as he speaks of Hersey of another Gospel message amen.
J4J, you said you don't like making assumptions when reading the Bible, do you assume that it is logical, inspired, infallible, etc.? But even so you're missing the point, everyone, except Jesus, has always turned aside, they've despised God, no ordinary human has ever been able to not rebel against God, it is human nature.
You don't need to teach a child to lie, complain, steal, ect. It comes naturally, what doesn't come naturally is perfect obedience, it is foreign to mankind.
But if Jesus was not fully human, Hebrews 4:15 is a lie, how could He be tempted in all points as we were if not fully human? James 1:14-15 is not helping your case because in context it's talking about a person who has sinned.
Now we agree that aborted babies and mentally handicapped people (like autism) go to Heaven, because Jesus covers their sin or sin nature, without holiness no man can see God and even the aborted babies need the righteousness of Jesus to stand before God and I believe that Jesus does clothe them in His righteousness.
John for Jesus wrote: NeedHim... Good thing there is nobody here that believes in Moral Government Atonement! John UK... Trying to explain away the inconsistentcies of Calvin's philosophyâ€‹ again? Of course, if someone else commits a crime and you are declared guilty for the crime they alone committed, you would then be paying for someone else's crime. As Scripture points out, that is not how God judges our sins. We are guilty of what we do and not someone else has done. Must make you weep to know your "saints" are so wrong!
Yes, very good article on heresy. I agree with J4, but a lot of his thinking is similar.
John, I committed a crime (in the thousands of millions) and another one was pronounced guilty for my crimes, in the sense that he was going to pay the price for my sins. Is that fair?
Well that is the gospel, and it is very good news for sinners like me. Jesus has paid the price for my sins, having them imputed to himself, as if he had committed them.
If you won't have total depravity or original sin or actual sin, then you can't have the second one which is the remedy.
You're getting mighty close to accusing God of sin.
Good thing there is nobody here that believes in Moral Government Atonement!
Trying to explain away the inconsistentcies of Calvin's philosophyâ€‹ again? Of course, if someone else commits a crime and you are declared guilty for the crime they alone committed, you would then be paying for someone else's crime. As Scripture points out, that is not how God judges our sins. We are guilty of what we do and not someone else has done. Must make you weep to know your "saints" are so wrong!
John UK from Wales amen, The Federal Headship, is Biblical Orthodoxy, that has been clearly backed up on here from many others with the scriptures to back up the Bible claims, without ripping the scriptures out of context to back up & support the claims. In why we fell with the First Adam, kind of reminds me like looking at the, Trinity do I fully understand everything about the Biblical Doctrine of the Trinity no, but the Bible does teach & support the Triune teaching, in how the One & Only, co-equal, co-eternal, teaching of One what= One God, through Three Whos , The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit, working together. But still separate from one another but still being One God, unlike the Muslim Math of 1,+,1,+,1= 3 Gods, lol.
Reference to Genesis 6:5; If Adam, as federal head ship of man kind by his sin didn't cause mankind to have an inherited corrupted nature, why would all of humanity here be described in this catastrophically sinful way? Surely if men are born neutral as the bad theology of Pelagians claim & didn't have a fallen nature there would at least be a couple hundred people who were not totally depraved on the earth then.
I have found over the years those who hold to the heretical teachings of Sin Less Perfection, hold to the Moral Government Atonement, in which leads one further off the tracks of Biblical Orthodoxy. In which is a very bad spiritual situation to be in, having another gospel message. I found those who hold the Moral Government Atonement are holding onto, Open Theism, in which leave you with another God waiting on man, for He doesn't know what man will do with his free will fallen choices. This is a good quick over view to expose what the bad theology of Moral Government is amen.
Christopher000 wrote: Ha-ha...just messin' around. Or was I? Hey, I keep forgetting to send my new email. Will shoot it out hopefully later today. John, although I may disagree on a couple of things, I always admire your commitment and zeal for the Lord, along with your passion for the lost. I think that's really something to admire and I wish I had the time that you do to dedicate myself, full time, to His service. I've noticed a new spark within you for some time now; a spark of excitement, especially with your new board you worked hard on, etc. Keep it up.
Here is what I say Do it today Don't procrastinate Get out your vegemite crate And have a party
But mail me first.
Bro, you can disagree with me, no problem. We are brothers and friends, and both of us are works in progress. The Lord has his hands full with us, when he's not talking to Dave. The important thing is.....
** He loved me, and gave himself for me. **
As for spark, that is a little bit of revival, born of deeper submission to him, and just doing what he said for me to do. He has something for each one of us to do, and when we do it, we can sing Psalm 1 with understanding.
John for Jesus wrote: John UK... That would mean aborted babies wouldn't be guilty of sin and would go to Heaven, as opposed to Hell. Luther would have them all going to Hell because God didn't predestine to have them live long enough to have faith.
To the point about being guilty of Adam's first sin: The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son.
1. John, you can ignore predestination and election, but God says that what he does.
2. Now I don't believe we are guilty of Adam's sin.
3. I do believe we all sinned in him.
4. All have sinned means all have sinned. There are none righteous, no, not one.
5. You're right about us going down this road before, so there is no point in rehashing it.
6. Your free will heresy is taking you down a humanism road, and you will rarely find it possible to glorify God or be humble before him. You certainly will never fear him, unless you're fearful of not having sufficient faith in Christ to reach the standard.
Once you see that salvation is of the Lord, your whole structure will be demolished, and you will truly bow the knee to him and acknowledge that "all have sinned" and are guilty.
Mike wrote: ... fully man, but then deny it by saying, well, he wasn't quite fully man because he wasn't in Adam
Sorry, Christ was fully man but not tainted by sin in Adam. He was not a replica (descendant) of Adam, but *a second* Adam, a different one, separate from sin.
"... such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, *undefiled*, *separate from sinners* ..." ".. was ... tempted like as we are, yet without sin"
He took flesh and blood, but it does not say that he partook of the sinful nature of Adam:
"as the children are partakers of *flesh and blood*, he also himself likewise took part of the same"
He did not partake of sin, but bore sin, when he was made sin for us: ".. he did .. *bear* the sins of many"
"he ... *made him to be sin* for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"
The value of his substitutionary atonement is that he tasted death, not as a payment for the wages of personal sin, but of others:
"Jesus .. was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, ... that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man .. ... in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings"
Psalms 51:5 KJV (5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
We have gone over this before. You believe this means David was formed sinful and I believe this was pointing to his mother and the sinful state into which he was born. Constantly being surrounded by sin from conception.
2) I believe Mary was more than a surrogate, she passed on her genes to Jesus. So if there were a sin nature that is passed down from Adam, Jesus would have got it because Mary was a descendant of Adam. I think it proves we aren't born sinners.
3) Between the point of us being born and sinning, we would be innocent. That would mean aborted babies wouldn't be guilty of sin and would go to Heaven, as opposed to Hell. Luther would have them all going to Hell because God didn't predestine to have them live long enough to have faith. To the point about being guilty of Adam's first sin:
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Ezekiel 18:20
Its the Eve of Ramadan, and this is how Islamic Extremists become closer to their god. While not mentioned here on SA, a convoy of Coptic Christians in Egypt were also ambushed and killed. Among the dead are children
Lurker wrote: J4J --- If you want to discuss further, put up your email address and I'll contact you but I'll not discuss it further here. God's richest blessings to all who know me.
To you also, brother Lurker. And thanks for the post! We often hear, and rightly so, that the Lord was fully God and fully man, but then deny it by saying, well, he wasn't quite fully man because he wasn't in Adam.
"1.) Read Romans 3:10-18, it assumes we have a sin nature."
I don't feel comfortable making assumptions when it comes to Scripture. I know for sure the point was that Jews are just as sinful as Gentiles and that they had "turn aside". Meaning they had to have a knowledge of God first to turn from Him in disobedience.
2) I don't believe Mary was only a surrogate. Jesus got His human side from her, so whatever baggage we come with, He must have had. Yet He didn't sin.
"3.) To say that Jesus had desires to sin, would to say He sinned, for a desire to sin comes, not from a pure heart, but an impure heart."
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14â€-â€¬15
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15
Jesus was tempted as we are. Therefore, He was enticed to sin by His own desires, but didn't give in to those desires so that He wasn't guilty of sin.