Rufus, may main concern has to do with the way the Church (both true and false) have treated the Jewish people throughout its 2000 year history. Thankfully, not all within the Church have been so terrible towards the Jews, but there have been many who have and I have grown accustomed to seeing (dare I say it) statements that are truly antisemitic, for they seem to want to pin on the Jewish people the majority of evil in the world, when a lost Jew has just as much of a lost, sinful soul as a lost Gentile. I am sorry if our convo has gotten heated unnecessarily, but I would like you to at least consider what I have tried to put forth as being the Biblical reasons for what I believe, as I have posted Scriptures to the defense. I rely on the Word of God as my sole guide for faith and practice, and any other tradition of man must not contradict it. I am a born-again believer in Jesus Christ who happens to have been born a Jew. And I desperately want my people to see His glory. SteveR, I am well aware that Aramaic would have been the language of many Jewish people of the 1st Century (with koine Greek, as well), so the baseless insult is unnecessary. To insinuate that no Jew would know Y'shua (or Y'hoshua, long form) is silly. So the LXX makes the Masoretic obsolete? Is that it
Rufus, being a Christian does not mean one has to be anti-intellectual in order to be spiritual. You only have the words of the KJV because of Puritan and Anglican interpreters who worked with the text to bring us the much-revered KJV. Your stance is not only anti-intellectual (and please, hear me no this), it's historically and fundamentally non-sensical. To say that one does not need the original languages upon which the English is based is to say that one does not need a foundation to build a house. The house while crumble under detailed architectural additions, and your faulty arguments crumble under the weight of denying the very foundation of the KJV Bible. Y'shua would have been the Hebrew way to say Jesus, and just as we don't need the words "Trinity" and "Abortion" in the Scriptures to know what God says about them (try THOSE in your KJV-query), so we don't need an English transliteration of Hebrew to know historical what Jesus would sound like to those who would have been familiar. BTW, one could cite countless sources of Hebrew concordances and dictionaries derived from the Masoretic text to prove YHWH. I say I am a Jewish Christian, as Paul continued to identify himself as such in Phil. 3:5 & Rom. 11:1. BTW, the WHOLE WORLD is heavy on perversion, not just Jew
Jehovah (a derivative of the Hebrew word YHVH) in the King James Version (NOT the Original, for neither you nor I could understand it with conventional English usage today. Funny, the infallible translation needed a translation. But I digressâ€¦). This is your argument, seriously? Wow, Rufus you have said some stuff on this site that I know that I have agreed with concerning other societal issues, but on this one and your fringe KJV Only-ism, you are out to lunch my friend. To all the other KJV Onlyists: are you all really this radical in your understanding of the underlying texts of the KJV that its own editors utilized in translating into English? Rufus: 1) What is your exegetically-drawn reasons for positing an anthropological category in Scripture called "Christian" that is other than "Jew" or "Gentile?" And if it is not a sin to be Jewish (or Gentile, for that matter), why is there a separate category of man required to override their natural "condition" of ethnicity? It seems to preclude that there is something wrong with being either or if it requires a break with itâ€¦ 2) What do you mean about "my TV and movies?" What is the information available through these I'm assuming Jewish avenues that is wrong? 3) Would you renounce anything written in the post of Cezar?
YHVH is the name of God in the "evil" Hebrew language, please don't go this anti-intellectual route that is against the art and science of biblical interpretation (I figured someone who is spouting off doctrines of anthropology based on one Scripture would know what that is. Apparently I am mistaken. Seriously Rufus, you've got to be joking me on this one. I only mention ethnicity because being Jewish is apparently wrong to some on here and I am trying to make the point that Jesus isa Jew and so are the apostles, prophets, and the entire early Church. They did not betray or deny their Jewishness, they affirmed it through believing in the long-expected prophet sent to the nation of Israel (unfortunately they rejected it, but not forever [Rom. 11:28]). And praise God that He is the door for both, and I really don't find it to be godly that you question my profession of faith when you only know me through words on a screen. Seriously, you have THAT kind of depth of insight? You allow for no historical context to the Scripture on this point (Saul and Y'shua), and who's proselytizing blood? Another baseless accusation. How about you direct me to a source where Jehovah is used and not YHWH in the OT. You can't. And your anti-semite "holocaust" slur is stupid in the utmost.
Rufus wrote: There are three types of people... Jew, Gentile and Church of God. 1 Corinthians 10:32 - Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles,nor to the church of God: You,at the least, give an uncertain sound when you emphasize having Abraham as your father. Saul was a Pharisaical Jew and then became Paul, a Christian. I encourage you to do likewise. Lastly, Jehovah is Saviour and his name is Jesus. Acts 15:26 - Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He remained Saul, that was his Hebrew name. He did not give up being Jewish, as having an ETHNICITY isn't a sin, but SIN is. Is it a sin to be Jewish? If it is, then please, take it up with the Jewish Messiah, Jesus. You show a clear ignorance of passages like Romans 2, 9-11 and even Romans 1:16, where it says that the Gospel is the power of God for the JEW AND THE GREEK! How hard is this to understand? I really don't get it. YHWH is Savior and His name is Jesus/Y'shua, which means "salvation."
Well, I hate to say it but anti-semitism is alive today and it seems to reek on this website, amongst those who claim to be fundamental and biblicists.
BTW, using one verse to support your idea is terrible hermeneutics. Please repent..
Cezar wrote: They are for anything that is depraved and against Christianity. They love to destroy other people's cultures.
Wow, I guess its in our genes, huh? Your misquoting of Scripture along with your asinine sweeping generalizations about an entire ethnic groups hardly bear a reason to respond. THIS Jew does not support gay "marriage;" THIS Jew believes in the JEWISH Messiah Jesus; THIS Jew doesn't want to destroy other people's cultures. Any other anti-semitic libel you want to throw against us while your at it? No, I do not have horns underneath my hair and yes, I do still have a soul; one that THE LION OF THE TRIBE OF JUDAH HAS SAVED, unworthy though it may be. Cezar, you have more in league with Adolf Eichmann with your comments than you do with Y'shua of Nazareth, your God and Creator. Please repent of your baseless Jew-hatred. It's attitudes like yours that allowed for the Holocaust, attitudes like yours that support the pogroms, attitudes like your which encouraged the Crusades, and attitudes like yours which spell destruction for the Jewish people today. How can your heart be so far from the love of the Apostle Saul in Romans 9-11 towards Israel and be Christian How can your heart be so far from God's electing love of Israel?
You malign all dispensationalists as being in league with John Hagee. John Hagee is a false teacher. Please don't mischaracterize us in this way. Rufus, please provide something to show that what Israelis are doing is stealing land. Perhaps we should give America or Texas back while we are at it following your line of thinking. BTW, when Israel gives back land, guess who suffers? Innocent Israelis AND innocent "Palestinians" who are used as pawns for Jew-hatred (like the Gaza strip, and how Israel ripped their own people out of their to make room for Palestinian launch points). Who hates the Palestinians? Please sir, provide some reference to it and I will condemn it on the spot. Perhaps you aren't familiar with the work at Palestinian Media Watch, who track the kind of drivel the Islamic-led government is spoon-feeding the most innocent among them to hate Jews. That's my "cute" list. Where else is Israel to have a country but in "Palestine?" Where else can we have refuge for the centuries of evil done to us? Peaceful protest? Unarmed humanitarian vessels? I really want to see this for myself. But the true aggressors are not Israel. As Jordanian Walid Shoebat said, "Overnight I became a Palestinian" (in reference to the "lie" of Palestinianism).
SteveR wrote: If you are insecure about it, dont do it ...pretty simple.
I have to say, Steve, this is one of the areas where I see the inconsistency of covenantal, paedobaptist theology. Per Genesis 17, any male (NOT including females, curiously, though one from your camp would obviously advocate for the baptizing of girls) who was not circumcised was to be cut off from the community of Israel. If you are going to be consistent, wouldn't you have to say that those "Christians" who do not baptize their children are sinning gravely? I would really like an explanation for this inconsistency from someone who embraces it. Maybe there is something I am missing?
First of all, Rufus, I have a family and other obligations, and I am sorry but defending the people who have no right to exist seemingly in this world is tiring and time-consuming. Do the Jewish people and Israel have a right to exist? It seems you have bought the liberal view that Israel is nothing but aggressors and bigots. It is an ancient attack against the Jewish people to call it Palestine, and if you want to take an attack against a people group as fodder for your faulty arguments, I guess I can't help you there. What of the Palestinian children and the Arabs who exist who do love Israel and love the government they have in place instead of the Hamas-led, cowardly Islamic jihadist way? What of the children that are used as suicide bombers, sir? What of the promulgation of Jew hatred and Holocaust denial but the powers-that-be in "Palestine?" Is this all legitimate aggression in your eyes? The Jews have NEVER turned the most innocent among them into human bombs. "Common sense?" What kind of strong citation is that?? And I like your cute list at the end of your thread. Yes, please, make sure you point out all those subversive Jews in power, Rufus, before it's too late. Your understanding of Palestine seems woefully lackingâ€¦please explain Hams and PLO and Arafat.
Rufus wrote: I'll give it a shot after you answer the following in the "CUFI Lobbies Against Hagel Appointment" thread:
Answering the question with an assertion disguised as a question (seemingly) is not answering the question. What is Palestine, but an ancient Roman moniker given to the land by an antisemitic emperor? What are Palestinians but displaced pawns used by the surrounding Arab nations (to whom many belonged to at one point) to fuel antisemitism and provoke the world at large to want to see the embarrassment and punishment of Israel? This is not to say that Israel is full of saints or that every IDF officer has conducted himself in full humanity (they are sinners and not demons like so many Jew haters would like to characterize them as, and under immense pressure from Hamas and Fatah/PLO murderers who want to see them annihilated and who use Palestinian children as suicide machines. Where's the outrage for that? When has Israel engaged in any of these brutal tactics? Who is at fault for the lack of harmony now that the land is called "Israel" [with and Arab on the Knesset, mind you, something that would NEVER happen in "Palestine"]? Don't tell me its those "dirty Jews" all over again, please?)
AntiPapist wrote: I ALREADY KNOW YOU "JE[W]SUITS" & LIARS ON SermonAudio Are On Your Way To THE LAKE OF FIRE: I'm Just Letting You Know You Won't Go There Without A REBUTTAL On Earth From THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH & NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH. As I Was Saying Before The "JE[W]SUIT"-moderator & Closet "FREEMASONIC"-moderator "Blanked" &-Or "JE[W]SUITICALLY" "Blacked" Me Out:
Ladies and gentlemen, SermonAudio.com's resident psychopath! Let's give him a big round of applause! Because we all knew his antisemitic, nonsensical rant was not too far behind as soon as the Pavlovian bell in his head rang "Jesuitâ€¦" oh what, I'm sorry, "Je[w}suit!" Hey pal, get some new material, please. Your predictability combined with your paranoia are well-versed. Please repent and believe the Gospel of Messiah Jesus.
Lurker wrote: Furthermore, God promised to put His Spirit into all 12 tribes of Israel, make them one nation with one Shepherd (Christ) and restore them to their land (Ezek 37). Anyone who sees this commencing in 1948 is clearly not interested in the truth.
Unless someone is convinced this is the case. Wow, another individual who claims to know the motives of peoples hearts, that they are not interested in truth! Great way to bully your opposition into silence, I might add. Look, people who disagree can be interested in truth and yet be wrong in their assertion about the truth. On this site, can we please stop with the arrogant claims about peoples hearts and judge the doctrines proposed? Lurker, you might be right about that, but you've hardly proven your case. BTW, by the time you get to the New Testament, the terms "Jew," "Israel," and being of the physical lineage of a Hebrew are used interchangeably, so your apparent parsing of the covenant to Abraham and not Jacob is peculiar to meâ€¦although of course it seem biblical that Messiah will restore Israel to her land and she will one day be saved and come to a knowledge of the true Christ and will be under His lordship in Israel...
It's clear wrote: You's wrong, wrong and wrong again. God never had a special plan for Israel the ethic nation. The nation was just the vehicle to convey truth to the true Israel of God viz to all true believers who like Abraham are justified by faith.
John UK, thanks for clearing that up, brother!
It's clear, you are the one who I believe to be in the wrong. I find it to be troublesome that people mischaracterize the view of the choosing of the nation of ethnic Israel to mean that God is favoring an ETHNICITY. This is clearly not the case, as Deut. 7-9 points out. But, if God did not choose an ethnic people Israel, you must either spiritualize the majority of the OT on this issue or ignore the original context; either way you do violence to the text.
Why is it that the Jews have been so persecuted throughout their Diaspora? And yet God has preserved them through all of this, as undeserving as they are? Sounds like a perfect picture of God's election of His NT-originated Church if you ask me. Chosen of God for whatever purpose He has is not equal with eternal life (God's choosing of Pharaoh and other pagans in Scripture, etc..) accept when speaking of the Church of God.
Hey John, I don't understand what you mean by that.
Christopher, thank you for your attitude towards the Jewish people. I personally have seen an attitude on this website from some (certainly not the majority) who seem to think the Jews worse sinners than everyone else, and Cezar's comments are no different. To refer to all Jews as liars and idol worshippers is a hasty generalization at best and antisemitic at worst. Furthermore, for Cezar to seemingly reference favorably Martin Luther's late tractate "To the Jews and their Lies" in which he promotes the destruction of synagogues and forbiddance of rabbis to teach under penalty of death, destruction of Jewish homes, forbiddance to have Talmud (similar things our Christian forbears, the Pilgrims, ran from England over) is simply disgusting. I am Jewish and I will not apologize nor think I am any more evil than any other sinner just because of my blood and the sins of my fathers.
"Verily, a hopeless, wicked, venomous and devilish thing is the existence of these Jews, who for fourteen hundred years have been, and still are, our pest, torment and misfortune. They are just devils and nothing more." --Luther, To the Jews and Their Lies
God didn't divorce His promises to Abraham ala Romans 9-11. And if that somehow justifies violence against a segment of the human population. And PLEASE don't tell me you are holding up Martin Luther's Kristallnacht-inspiring tract as a legitimate source of Jewish critique? As if the Jews were any worse idol worshippers and liars as any other people?
It's a shame that I have come to expect non-intellectual, anti-Semitic drivel from a Christian website. It frankly is so disgusting I don't know what to sayâ€¦
For those of you who would characterize an entire ethnic group based on their national rejection of Messiah (a rejection you were all born into, may I say), how many actual Jewish people do you know? Or do you allow the caricatures of others to represent an ENTIRE populace to your senses? You call yourself a Christian, and yet do you spurn the ethnic group from which our Lord came and His apostles and the majority of your early Christian brothers and sisters because of their bloodline?
Cezar wrote: I would take this with a large grain of salt. God didn't divorce Israel for being good. They have been idol worshippers and liars for centuries. On the Jews and Their Lies Author: Martin Luther
Rufus wrote: Equating opposition to the nation state of Israel as "hatred of the Jewish people" is unfair. The positions that I espouse are held by Naturei Ketai, by True Torah Jews. Should I label yourself and Jim and theWayPA as being "anti-semites" or "haters of Jews", "nazis" etc. because you do not have the same position as these Jews? It is a Jewish belief that the diaspora was not to end until their Messiah had restored them to Israel. Now the Rothschilds and reformed Judaism comes along and conquers Israel by force without the Messiah. These issues are bigger than simplifying them to oh he must be a nazi, a Jew hater etc. Likewise, should I call you all haters of Palestinians for not being a sympathetic voice for their plight? Are you not Christians? Caring for all men or do you care only for people based on their blood?
I notice that you did not answer the initial question: does Israel/the Jewish people have a right to exist or not?
Rufus wrote: Sons of Shem = Elam. Elamites = Persians. Genesis 10:22 - The sons of Shem were Elam and Asshur and Arpachshad and Lud and Aram.
Rufus, Why do you always seem to have this reaction to defending Israel's right to exist? Can you not see that regimes like the one in Iran and Muslim fundamentalists do NOT want to to co-exist with Israel, but want them annihilated as part of their will to jihad? Why do you seem so against Israel? I have never seen Jim Lincoln or anyone else of a more dispensational understanding calling for the extermination of other people groups, so please do not wash us with that straw man. I have seen enough antisemitism on this website that it sickens me, but I have not seen ANYONE calling for the extermination of Iranians (BTW, antisemitism has in mind a specific hatred of Jewish people; this is the definition of the word. Please do not assume that those who use it care not for the plight of other Semites)? Just answer this; does Israel and the Jewish people have a right to exist?
A True Blue Jew wrote: #1.What Kind Of An "ASS" Are You Anyway "zero..." ? #2.Oh, I Forgot, "zero..." Is An ILLUMINATI NEW-WORLD-[DIS]ORDER "JE[W]SUIT" ASS ! What "evidence" Does "zero..." "have...to support" his LIES ? NOTHING ! Because "zero..." Is A SATANIC LIAR, LIKE his "FATHER THE DEVIL (HIMSELF)" JOHN 8:44a ! JOHN TODD & ALBERTO RIVERA HAD & HAVE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH & NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH IN &-OR ROUND ABOUT THEM--THE TRUE LORD JESUS CHRIST, THE WHOLE TRUE LORD JESUS CHRIST & NOTHING BUT THE TRUE LORD JESUS CHRIST IN &-OR ROUND ABOUT THEM ! AS DO I ! "WE ARE OF GOD: HE THAT KNOWETH GOD HEARETH US; HE THAT IS NOT OF GOD HEARETH NOT US. HEREBY KNOW WE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, AND THE SPIRIT OF ERROR." 1 JOHN 4:6 ! JOHN TODD SPOKE VIA THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH ! ALBERTO RIVERA SPOKE VIA THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH ! I, A TRUE BLUE JEW, HAVE SPOKEN & WILL CONTINUE TO SPEAK VIA THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH !
Does the Spirit of truth teach you to speak as a vile, anti-Semitic lunatic? I think not; you represent the epitome of dangerous fundamentalism. You do not even know the people who you pronounce judgments on, and you sound like a self-righteous, sanctimonious weirdo. Please repent of your foul mouth and unloving spirit and believe the Gospel.
Rufus, Your zeal for upholding truth and right is commendable and we should all want to be more non-compromising with the world around us. However, without providing concrete evidence of your assertions, I am left not feeling condemned or convicted, but offended and judged by someone who perhaps has jumped the gun too far. Are we therefore then to condemn ALL fictional works as being rubbish? Yes, while the stories of the Hobbit and LOTR do contain "magical" elements (wizards, spells, etc.), is there a difference between the literary usage of these things as being elements of story- telling venture aimed at a higher goal then say the works of the woman who wrote the Potter series? I do think there is a qualitative difference. Are we to condemn the watching of ANY fictional movie or fictional story? How far do we take this? Michael Hranek, I do think your point, although well put, may be something of a category error, as the types of fantasy are not necessarily the same. Although I could be wrongâ€¦