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Frank wrote: Hey Chris. Thanks, it is a difficult subject and my musing was sort of rambling, but that is the way I look at it. As parents, we create the impetus or the source for evil, but not the evil. When God created mankind, He created the impetus or source, but not the evil. Therefore, He is not the author of evil. Supralapsarianism versus infralapsarianism.
Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
The differentiation between Infralapsarianism and Supralapsarianism has to do with the order of eternal decrees resulting in election, not any bizarre assignment for evil. And its not one or the other as there are other views like Arminianism & Amyraldism
Mike wrote: The fall that afflicts mankind with tornadoes is the same fall that afflicted Herod. Blame is better applied where it belongs.
My brother in Christ Guido de BrÃ¤s offers only one prooftext(Mat 10), but I can think of countless others for this section in the Belgic Confession
Matthew 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. Matthew 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
I would add the ENTIRE Song of Moses, to which this is but a sample
Deut 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. . Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. Deuteronomy 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people,.. ..Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. Deut 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
Jim Lincoln wrote: Why SteveR, I have to say I agree with you the message right before this one! When you have the Bible you don't need Confessions, etc. One doesn't need what the Romish Church thinks passes for Roman Catholic Authority (PDF).
Jim, I am very happy we agree. I think these confessions are wonderful documents, but they were intended for an audience that knew Scripture well not meant as a replacement for teaching Scripture.
San Jose John wrote: We're studying this in the Bible study I presently attend. Our teacher gave each of us a small paperback copy of a book that contains the Heidleberg Catechism, the Belgic Confession, and the Canons of Dort. So far it's been pretty enlightening. Even though these works are NOT the Bible and therefore not authoritative in themselves, they do a very fine job of explaining the Bible's doctrines and include many scripture proofs for each one. Regarding the tornado, Psalm 90 provides ample perspective regarding the present fallen nature of our flesh and the world, and God's general reaction to these (earthquakes, etc.)
At first, I didnt know if I should respond but since I brought up the Belgic Confession I should. When studying these recognize that they are documents developed out of dispute
the T U L I P response was in the 5 main areas of dispute during the reformation Human Corruption Election Atonement Grace Steadfastness While I will quote them often, understand that these should not become a lens where one judges all Scripture. Unfortunatly these documents do so well explaining areas of Scripture, they become used as replacements for Scripture
Sayin wrote: So you keep saying. But getting your lies from Roman Catholic sources gives you no credibility here.
You live up to your nickname, as REAL Christians discard lies from ANY source. You discard these verifyable quotes because they ARE TRUE, from an RCC scholar and shed light on the dark world you live in.
Unproifitable Servant wrote: Not sure why you are quoting a Catholic priest with an agenda as a reliable source. . When you start decrying the over 1000 years of Catholic persecution, raping of women, burning of villages, torture, and unmentionable abuses, then we will see that you are balanced in your approach. No one is this forum has ever, that I have seen, stood up in favor of violence in the name of Christ. So, I am not sure what point you are trying to prove. I suggest that if you have not that you take the time to read Foxes Book of Martyrs, it is available in mp3 format on this site (different readers, some good some not so good) or online at many sites instead of a misguided Catholic priest defending Catholicism
Do I need to remind people here of atrocities committed by Catholics against Protestants? I hope everyone here knows them well. Its just foolosh to only remember those & ignore that Protestants REPAID the favor to not only Catholics but EACH other
Mr b wrote: Thank you stevenR. I didn't know the meaning. Thank you for showing me that.
You are welcome Mr b Remember the Joplin twister? If you look up the etymology of Joplin, you will see
Joplin Meaning: the son of Job
Job 1:18 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: Job 1:19 And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Jobs friends wanted to appear wise & place blame where they wanted, and were rebuked. If Joplin was a reason to read and learn from Job, then we now have 'Moore' of a reason
Mr b wrote: I don't know what the Belgium confession is either. I thought the reason why things happen us because its a fallen world. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. God only knows
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
The Belgic Confession is the oldest of the doctrinal standards of the Christian Reformed Church. The section on Gods Providence is to remind us that God did not give up his people to chance but continues to care for them. The work of de BrÃ¤s, however, is not a mere revision of Calvin's work, but an independent composition. In 1566 the text of this confession was revised at a synod held at Antwerp. In the Netherlands it was at once gladly received by the churches, and it was adopted by national synods held during the last three decades of the sixteenth century. The text, not the contents, was revised again at the Synod of Dort in 1618-19 and adopted as one of the doctrinal standards to which all officebearers in the Reformed churches were required to subscribe. The confession stands as one of the best symbolical statements of Reformed doctrine.
Mike wrote: In other words, the creation is not fallen and acting accordingly. Death by tornado is now "fatherly care."
As was the Slaughter of the Innocents, the first Christian Martyrs
Matthew 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
Maybe your god is too weak to prevent this, not mine. Another note: They did not have a Believers Baptism as well
Welor wrote: Now Steve, don't forget that the Roman Catholic organisation is waaaaayyy ahead on the paedophilia stakes ..... And; "An openly gay former Dominican friar insisted today that homosexuality is the â€˜ticking time bomb in the Catholic Churchâ€™ and that homosexual men are â€˜massively over-representedâ€™ within the Church. Mark Dowd, who is now a journalist, said research for his 2001 Channel 4 documentary Queer and Catholic suggested that at least half of people attracted into seminaries in the priesthood are gay." Mail Online 26th Feb 2013 And thats before we go into the pagan idolatry of the RCC.
You make a make a valid case indeed Welor. However if we were to lump ALL the wickedness of all Protestant Churches into one organization(including fallen ones like Rev Sun Myong Moon where paedophilia is doctrine), then I would say its a horse race.
Sayin wrote: His work was on the German people, not specifically about the German Reformation. No sources! What a surprise. Who would believe a Roman Catholic priest who was made domestic prelate to the pope?!!
SermonAudio doesnt allow enough bandwith to journal a fraction of this wickedness in Germany alone, let alone of all of the Reformation. Schoolchildren know these facts, so Im not surprised you dispute it.
What makes these Protestant persecutions specially revolting is the fact that they are absolutely inconsistent with the primary doctrine of Protestantism
Its remarkable that the Protestant Church saw all the wickedness that the Catholics had done, and committed worse
Ezekiel 23:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Ezekiel 23:2 Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother: Ezekiel 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity. Ezekiel 23:4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah. Ezekiel 23:5 And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours, ... Ezekiel 23:7 .. she defiled herself. . Ezekiel 23:9 Wherefore I have delivered her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, ... Ezekiel 23:10 ... for they had executed judgment upon her. Ezekiel 23:11 And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.
Jer 3:8 ..backsliding Israel committed adultery...yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not..played the harlot also.
Janssen used quotes like this as proof writing his 16 vols of German Reformation history and little has changed
Lutherans on Zwingli ""I will not read the works of these people, because they are out of the Church, and are not only damned themselves, but draw many miserable creatures after them."
"Zwingli was an offspring of hell, an associate of Arius (13), a man who did not deserve to be prayed for . . ."
Zwingli, returns the compliment "The devil has made himself master of Luther, to such a degree, as to make one believe he wishes to gain entire possession of him." "To see him in the midst of his followers, you would believe him to be possessed by a phalanx of devils."
"We do you no injustice when we reproach and condemn you as a worse betrayer and denier of Christ than the ancient heretic Marcion (16)." Zwingli's Church of Zurich wrote of Luther:
"He will not and can not associate himself with those who confess Christ . . . He wrote all his works by the impulse and the dictation of the devil." Luther on Calvin and Oecolampadius
"Oecolampadius, Calvin . . . and the other heretics have in-deviled, through-deviled, over-deviled, corrupt hearts and lying mouths."
Christopher000 wrote: I don't know...that's probably way off but how I try to make sense of it.
From the Belgic Confession
Article 13: The Doctrine of God's Providence
We believe that this good God, after he created all things, did not abandon them to chance or fortune but leads and governs them according to his holy will, in such a way that nothing happens in this world without his orderly arrangement. Yet God is not the author of, nor can he be charged with, the sin that occurs. For his power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that he arranges and does his work very well and justly even when the devils and wicked men act unjustly.
We do not wish to inquire with undue curiosity into what he does that surpasses human understanding and is beyond our ability to comprehend. But in all humility and reverence we adore the just judgments of God, which are hidden from us, being content to be Christ's disciples, so as to learn only what he shows us in his Word, without going beyond those limits.
This doctrine gives us unspeakable comfort since it teaches us that nothing can happen to us by chance but only by the arrangement of our gracious heavenly Father. He watches over us with fatherly care....
John UK wrote: Feel better now? Observer put in a lot of effort to help you see that your own people - Presby theologians - maintained that baptism was from the beginning, by immersion. I regard that as an act of kindness,
You call Observers posts 'kindness??' So sad that history keeps repeating
Janssen ""The Protestant sects derided each other in just as immoderate and undignified a way as they one and all derided the papacy . . . Cursing and blaspheming were as frequent as praying was rare."
Lisa wrote: There is a spirit of witchcraft there- I can't tell you who because they don't post under a consistent title but I been sensing it. Internet web sites are easy picking for witches. I recall I used to post on a web site called end times and coming events and one or two there could discern but only just starting. Anyway this guy who initially looked kosher started posting demonic art - again knew the bible very well. In the end we had to delete his membership he was so wack. Not long after I had a virus attack that simply stopped me logging onto the website.
Agree with what you sense Lisa, its here
Its important to notice how they handle Scripture. Do they handle it as a Love Letter sent to them, or a battle manual & uniform they stole off a wounded soldier.
Christopher000 wrote: Thanks...I'm very careful about who I give to as well. As for organizations, I'll give a few bucks here and there to all the usuals when leaving a grocery store, or whatever, but the bulk goes to well researched Christian organizations, like Compassion Int'l where I have been supporting a couple of boy in Brazil for some time.
Our Church establishes 'guidelines' for membership giving. One for the Church, another for the Synod and the last for other charities. Many years ago, the amount given was actually posted on a bulletin board. While that wouldnt fly today the information still gets out. People will still gossip when someone isnt holding up to their commitments
Lisa wrote: Btw gotta say how nice it is to have a normal discussion without having those weird people butting in all the time and accusing is being stupid. Dyu think they are kosher Steve ? I have a check in my spirit that they are sinister - a witch once infiltrated out group and she had an enormous knowledge of the bible but her spirit was not right. How long yu been on here with them ???
Lisa, Ive been lurking for years while listening to sermons, only started posting actively a few months ago when the secret handshake crowd got out of control. I would agree some sinister spirit does influence them. I can tell its spiritual conflict because of WHO they attack, as the WHY really doesnt matter to them
Its difficult to forcast in what form Sharia will coexist alongside contemporary western European culture as the Islamic population grows. However one shouldnt underestimate the mohammedans, secular humanists kill their babies, Muslims dont.