Neil wrote: But you haven't defined "poor," either. If it's such child's play to answer my question, then find one & get back to me with his answer. Or better yet, find several. Then it'll be fun trying to reconcile their replies. rhymnrzn, I have to wonder if you actually understood my question. I wasn't asking for another sermon, I was asking for a specific answer. What is "rich?" What are "much goods"?
Mark 12:41 "And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. (42) And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. (43) And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: (44) For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."
Acts 5:4 "Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."
Neil wrote: So how then does one define "rich": relative to then, or now? And either way, by which metric? Net worth, gross income, net income, or what? If you cannot arrive at a universally acceptable & precise definition of "rich," then we're wasting our time here, for none of us know what we're talking about, including myself.
It's a far cry from "But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things."(1Jn.2:20) and "but they that seek the LORD understand all things."(Pro.28:5) As a matter of where God justifies or condemns, it is written that we are expected according to what we have, to help along with them who keep covenant, and go into the world for teaching all men to keep the same commandments we are commanded with. The parable of the rich man, and when Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar to break off his sins by shewing mercy to the poor "if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquility" come instantly to mind for basic metrics.
Luke 12:19 "And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry."
jpw said "Someone out there knows, but what of everyone else? They can't know?"
I'm sure you're not inferior, how Apostle Paul said we may eat what is sold in the shambles, and not ask questions for conscience sake: it does not say everything should be considered fit for public use (that is in moderation).
Notlocked said "Evil wealthy merchants are obviously not going to be Christian are they? I'm sure there are plenty of wealthy men and women who think they are Chrisitan's."
People will boast membership, but not keep with the prophets and righteousness thereof. That most boast their Christianity, and for any others that do not, the word says that Jesus Christ is our Lord and their's (he is Lord of all): and, if not now at this time, they will bow and confess Jesus, as they are brought under the power being exercised over them. Remember the Psalms that said that the seas would drop down to the depths, and then rise to the heights, and men in their distress would call upon the Lord? he then brings them to their desired haven. Likewise, when Jonah took shipping, the merchants cornered him to ask what his matters and occupation were, and they immediately feared when they knew that it was for his cause that the tempest was upon them, because he had fled from the Lord.
How can I be in jeopardy with the Lord, seeing that I keep that which I received in the beginning of my faith in Jesus, and abide in my calling? The Bible itself says that this present world lieth in evil and unbelief, including those called by the name of the Lord, for their own hardness of heart and slowness to believe all that is written in Scripture.
Apostle Paul condemns unworthiness, and I will do the same.
2 Corinthians 8:12 "For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not. (13) For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened: (14) But by an EQUALITY, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be EQUALITY: (15) As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack."
Right, I asked you one question in the mind of what we are surely commanded of the Lord, and gave my voice in defense of myself as you persisted to blame me for what I do not agree. As I gave you some points which I think you contradict, you passed over them in favor of accusation and a foolish question (compelling me to give you names makes doubt as to what spirit and mind you are of). God does not want men to owe one another, to speak leasing, to take thought for the morrow, strike up massive loans, meddle with the balance, or to open businesses destined for bankruptcy. We cannot stand in their way to stop them, if they refuse to hear reproof. That does not mean for us to say in so many words that they are delivered to do evil, and give them no warning of God, that it is their lawful right, nor will God (forget men) hold it against them: that would not be consistent within the testimony.
Proverbs 20:23 "Divers weights are an abomination unto the LORD; and a false balance is not good."
Hosea 12:7 "He is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand: he loveth to oppress. (8) And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found me out substance: in all my labours they shall find none iniquity in me that were sin."
Neil wrote: It's sure easy to not answer my question. I want names, not soapbox speeches.
The Bible says to avoid foolish questions, but I still shewed the wisdom which you neglect to fellowship with. I asked you more than one question as it pertains to the Lord's precepts, and it was like speaking into thin air. And I will remember your word, that you count my conversation of subjection and godly fear for "soapbox speeches": but I have not defrauded the fellowship of the spirit.
Psalms 119:13 "With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth."
It bears to mention that God judges the poor too, as he looks upon the hearts:
Jeremiah 6:13 "For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely."
But just as accumulation of wealth is not in and of itself evil, the word does instruct the man of God to be fully equipped that he may be blessed of God, that he may retain his wealth in the blessing. When busy about redeeming his poor brethren, and observing the release of debts upon the year of release, and likewise tithing of the increase, that the house of God (which we are ) may be sufficient for the service of the tabernacle which is pitched by the Lord, is all that the Lord command his blessing, as opposed to blowing upon his substance because his eye was not bountiful in the time of need. For all of this is to assure that the word of God's grace is taught, and received upon fertile grounds: for it is also written, and all men have heard that Christians are supposed to believe, that it is more blessed to give than to receive. They heard that Christians are supposed to believe that no man had ought of his own in the congregation of righteousness, but that all men had all things common.
Neil wrote: Hey rhymnrzn, put your cards on the table: can you supply any examples of evil wealthy merchants who are ostensible Christians? And I don't mean convicts like Abramoff or Martha the Inside Trader
It is so easy a question to answer, I am ashamed. Every one that perpetuates that gain is godliness, who are lined up in all manner of churches. Mind you, had they not found profit in it, and if they did not have their ranks lodged up in the lawfirms, courthouses, police precincts, military garrisons, share-holder investment firms, management and chiefs at company headquarters and storehouses, in the field, at the sea, in the air, then they would have left feigning words to make merchandise of all men, and gone straightway into slave driving and selling families openly. Since just about every book of the Holy Bible testifies against rigorous rulers of every type, and because Catholics and Protestants provide those types for our modern day, I am astonished that you act like everything is more excellent, as if it is not thinly veiled slavery seeing that if we do not participate in this economy, we are more or less cut off from rights to dwell in the cities of habitation.
It is true that judgement belongs to the Lord, and he alone is fit to do, as he knows the hearts. What you said is not true Neil, as we know many so called brethren are in danger of the judgement for their excesses. The majority of the participants in secular government boast membership to the body of Christ, as do the majority of wealthy merchants. Nor do the Scriptures you quoted negate other Scriptures, just like other Scriptures do not negate the ones you quote, as if I am seeking to bring upon any man other than what is written. for example:
James 2:6 "But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?"
1 Timothy 6:9 "But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition."
Luke 1:52 (Mary's reply) "He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. (53) He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
Neil wrote: Maybe you just like condemning people you've never met. Both "liberals" & Fundies share that habit. I have enough trouble just making sense of the people I do know. Judge not, lest ye be judged.
As the Lord lives, I don't mind being outcast as a "liberal and a fundie" from some one that is not in one accord in the Gospel. Granted, I would seek to forewarn brothers against doing things that are bad for reputation, such as running a worldly racket, and then casting it off based on who rides or who wipes out on the surf of the multitudes.
There's plenty of cases going around where people are being threatened over sequestration, and this or that happens if so and so gets elected: but if we were righteous, God only would be our king, and we wouldn't need these hirelings to stand up and make our sons and daughters to be their bakers, servants, soldiers, and take the tenth of our harvests etc.
here's democracy for you
Proverbs 28:2 "For the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof: but by a man of understanding and knowledge the state thereof shall be prolonged."
Proverbs 29:2 "When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."
Neil wrote: I am in no position to judge other people's hearts, so I cannot say whether anyone is as overly covetous as you think. If I dared to try it, I could be fairly blamed for the sin of divination! So stop fretting over the wealthy. They are not the proper concern of believers. BTW, contrary to the stereotype of the top hatter riding in a Pierce-Arrow down Park Avenue, many wealthy people actually live quite frugally. Even those who are ostentatious still provide work for the lowly, by purchasing goods made by them. God uses even the evil for his providential purposes.
By the sounds of it, it is as the days of heaven, and their be no treacherous dealing against the brethren in breaking the covenant of Christ either. Nor do you seem at all concerned with the coming dispensation that all Christians are soon to face, and all men small and great, where we shall not even have the right to buy and sell save he that receives the mark of the beast. That being at least a little ways off in the distance, tell me, is it God's will for men to ignore Christ, and strike up 10 and 20 year loans, and build lavish resorts and whatever, to depend on what they know not?
Judges 8:2 "And he said unto them, What have I done now in comparison of you? Is not the gleaning of the grapes of Ephraim better than the vintage of Abiezer?"
Right, and Gideon and his men were faint when going to fight the battles of the LORD, and the men of Succoth wouldn't give then to eat and drink for their journey. Far be it from me to condemn someone just for being rich: but that does not cut everyone loose to labor to be rich, to take thought for the morrow, to owe any man in persuits of leasing lives of luxury, and to lend hoping to recieve as much again and more upon usury.
It is good to mention Abraham, who was rich, as was Job (relatively), in their dispensation. Being in the dispensation of Christ, who racks up the grace of all ages, would himself remind us of the year of liberty which was commanded every 7 years, and how Israel had to go to Babylon 70 years, that the land would finally enjoy her sabbaths: God took vengeance on the ruling elites, who brought their brethren back into bondage, and were the roots for mass human suffering including the widows and orphans you mentioned. It does not take much looking around to find similar to worse situations upon every place.
Neil wrote: A Biblical truth often overlooked: "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?" â€“ Matt. 20:13
yahoo search: "Westgate Resorts provides affordable luxury vacations, first-class accommodations, and unparalleled customer service, featuring hotels and resorts in premiere travel ..."
yeah buddy....reputations r us
Matthew 20:13 is not holding up a man of wicked idolatry who coveted greedily, but someone who was not willing to send them away empty (who are his equals), by communicating with their needs, after they turned up (for what reason, God knows) who were staring down their own needs and were willing to do honest work.
Proverbs 28:8 "He that by usury and unjust gain increaseth his substance, he shall gather it for him that will pity the poor."
There's a time to receive the increase, and a time to refuse to receive the increase. Jesus made himself poor. All men, being lower than the angels, are wretched, miserable, naked, and poor: without the Lord they shall fall underneath the prisoners and drop down lower than the graves.
2 Kings 12:7 "Why repair ye not the breaches of the house? now therefore receive no more money of your acquaintance, but deliver it for the breaches of the house."
Jeremiah 5:30 "A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; (31) The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?"
Psalms 11:3 "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?"
Job 12:20 "He removeth away the speech of the trusty, and taketh away the understanding of the aged."
RK Boril said "In order to redistribute wealth, the government must steal from one to give to another. This is a violation of the commandment, "Thou shalt not steal". There is no exception to this law nor exclusion for government officials to skim off the top in the transfer."
I'm not sure sure if all theft in the world makes up half the battle, but the other factors of what the Lord Jesus said "take heed and beware of covetousness" and what the prophet Isaiah said "to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke" must weigh equally as heavy.
jpw wrote: I hope Christians are ready to listen. this is what globalism does. uproot and dismantle communities and move in with global organization. wonder if that line 'this is for Israel' or democracy mumbo jumbo will be used to justify imperialism this time.
Perhaps you are hinting at Mystery Babylon and the Beast's version of globalization? All men deserve rite of passage, without fear of environment: but globally speaking, the Israel of God in Christ is possible in all four corners of the earth, as those born suddenly of the Holy Ghost, in any nation, never mind if men say that it is a Christian nation, or an anti-christian one. In that mind, we may desire no more in our own hometowns than a tent and poll in the camp of peace, compared to a stronghold of domestike broiles. But those who cleave to militance are destined to hit the end of their advantage in it.
Jer. 30:3"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it." Mat.24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
tribÂ·ute 1.A gift, payment, declaration, or other acknowledgment of gratitude, respect, or admiration 2.Evidence attesting to some praiseworthy quality or characteristic 3.A payment in money or other valuables made by one ruler or nation to another in acknowledgment of submission or as the price of protection or security. - A tax imposed for such payment. 4.Any payment exacted for protection. 5.A payment or tax given by a feudal vassal to an overlord. - The obligation to make such a payment.
tribÂ·uÂ·tarÂ·y 1.Making additions or yielding supplies; contributory. 2.Paid in tribute. 3.Paying tribute: a tributary colony. n., pl., -ies. 1.A stream that flows into a larger stream or other body of water. 2.A ruler or nation that pays tribute.
retÂ·riÂ·buÂ·tion 1.Something justly deserved; recompense. 2.Something given or demanded in repayment, especially punishment. 3.Theology. Punishment or reward distributed in a future life based on performance in this one.
Ecc.10:14 "...a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him?(15)The labour of the foolish wearieth every one of them, because he knoweth not how to go to the city.(16) Woe to thee, O land, when thy king is a child, and thy princes eat in the morning!"
Echo wrote: But it is clear that this system does not work either, at least in part because it requires people to be altruistic. Unfortunately, working for the benefit of others over the self is not in harmony with the current state of human nature." (Wilf Hey)
Not so with them who indeed abide in their calling in Christ, who are Israel, Jerusalem, and Zion, according to all the Scriptures.
John 4:23 "But the hour cometh, and now is..."
Isaiah 4:4 "When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning."
1 Pet. 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God..."
1 Cor.10:24 "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."
I caught Jack Van Impe talking about this in my brief hearing, and figured he is, as usual, wanting to speak over the principal witness that includes dwelling with all men peaceably (if it is not possible to dwell peaceably, that it must needs be on the part of the offender). Again, as possible: just like when King David was able to do when he did dwell near Achish King of Gath, of the Philistines.
Psalm 144:10 "It is he that giveth salvation unto kings: who delivereth David his servant from the hurtful sword. (11) Rid me, and deliver me from the hand of strange children, whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand is a right hand of falsehood: (12)That our sons may be as plants grown up in their youth; that our daughters may be as corner stones, polished after the similitude of a palace: (13)That our garners may be full, affording all manner of store: that our sheep may bring forth thousands and ten thousands in our streets: (14)That our oxen may be strong to labour; that there be no breaking in, nor going out; that there be no complaining in our streets. (15)Happy is that people, that is in such a case: yea, happy is that people, whose God is the LORD."