1) "Romans 9:13 KJV (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
2) Okay, now Esau is a picture of all those whom God passes by and leaves in their sins and iniquities; God does not love them; and it is this lack of love for them which is the deciding factor in why they never will repent and believe on Christ."
1) ‚ÄúI have loved you,‚ÄĚ says the Lord . ‚ÄúYet you say, ‚ÄėIn what way have You loved us?‚Äô Was not Esau Jacob‚Äôs brother?‚ÄĚ Says the Lord . ‚ÄúYet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.‚ÄĚ Even though Edom has said, ‚ÄúWe have been impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places,‚ÄĚ Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‚ÄúThey may build, but I will throw down; They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness, And the people against whom the Lord will have indignation forever. Malachi 1:2‚Ä≠-‚Ä¨4
Now you can see this is clearly talking about the descendants of Jacob and Esau by the plural terms.
2) This isn't a picture, it is a history lesson! You have preconceived views which are distorting your ability to read Scripture, as you were brainwashed to do by a Calvie!
2) God does not "implore" - HE elects from the foundation of the world: - Eph 1:4.
3) Only the saved IN Christ through faith can comprehend sin and the need to repent and know their saviour. 1Cor 1:18. Mark 4:12. Acts 11:18.
4)"Rom 8:29 For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son... "Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having PREDESTINATED us"
1) "Us" isn't believers because the whole reason God is longsuffering toward them is so they will come to repentance. Whereas, believers have already repented. 2) The Apostles implored on God's behalf and Jesus would have gathered Jerusalem, but they would not. 3) How can they believe on Jesus before they know they are sinners in need of a Saviour? 4) This is speaking of those who love Him from v28. Those who love Him are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. Those who do not love Him are not. Unless, they repent and believe. Same with Eph 1:4, those who love Him are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, who is holy and without blame.
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. II Peter 7-9
God isn't slack concerning day of judgement. The reason He hasn't judged the world yet is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance. That is all people. It doesn't make sense that God wants all believers to come to repentance when they already have. I hope that helps!
Well at least we. An agree that God loves somebody! Sorry for my spelling errors lately, I got a new phone with horrible spell checking! I would like to challenge you with this, Calvinist believe that God's love is finite and limited. Whereas, the Bible teaches that God's love is infinite and limitless. Don't you see a problem having a restricted view ofc God. You have a small view of the love and breadth of God. Reading the gospels, I can see God loved the whole world. Why won't you? Why is the Biblical view of God mightier than the Reformers?
"What I would like you to explain, John, is how that tallies with your oddball belief that somehow God loves the entire world. John 3:16"
SO now the plain teaching of God is oddball? Just wow! Lazarus died again. The healed folk still died. His love is showed to us in that while we were sinners He died for us. Not that he healed our physical infidelities.
The wb old point of the passage is to show why hasn't judged the world yet. He is longsuffering with us in hopes that we would all become saved.
Adriel wrote: 1."God wants all to believe" That's just not true.
2."He will only implore them and reach out to them" Now we have God on HIS knees pleading to sinners???
3."but we must respond in obedience to His calling." We can't because of the power and dominance of sin.
4.What is missing from these assumptions is God, sin, the Bible....Thus they are not facts but merely conjecture.
1)The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
2)Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ‚Äôs behalf, be reconciled to God. II Corinthians 5:20
3)Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, ‚ÄúMen and brethren, what shall we do?‚ÄĚ Then Peter said to them, ‚ÄúRepent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:37‚Ä≠-‚Ä¨38
4) In light of Scripture, do you care to retract your statement? Lol
John UK wrote: Hi John 1. All of scripture formulates belief about God...I hope you at least got that, John. 2. Yes, unbelievers are both dead and alive. They are dead spiritually and alive physically. Therefore to anything spiritual they are dead, which is why they can't understand anything spiritual. 3. If God willed that all be saved, all would be saved. God willed that John UK be saved, even though I did not want to be a Christian, being totally opposed to the very idea. But thanks be to God that he has a way of turning the will around, so that it freely desires to repent and live for Christ. But you'll never find me saying that God "forced" me, John. Not ever, never.
1) Yes, I do.
2) Okay, but Jesus was physical, Heaven and Hell are physical places, and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is a physical action. It's something you do with your physical mind.
3) Calvies never admit that they believe God forces people unconsciously to believe, but nonetheless, that is what they believe. I guess because even they understand how wrong it would be, so they try to explain it away. God wants all to believe, but He will not force them to, He will only implore them and reach out to them, but we must respond in obedience to His calling.
"How am I to think that any of my eloquence or presentation of the gospel can persuade such a person to even want to repent, or want to love God?"
Though God calls many, few are chosen. He doesn't leave them in a state of ignorance, but implores them to be saved. They understand there is a God as God has created that understanding within them. What they don't understand is that they are in need of the Savior. That's where the preaching of the gospel comes in and why it is so important. To say someone is "dead is a metaphor. It doesn't mean they are lifeless physically, it means that their relationship to God is dead. God, by Grace, intervenes through the word so that they can know Him and have a relationship with Him.
I appreciate your prayers! However, in the context of what me and John UK are talking about. There was no solid example of Calvie philosophy. Maybe you will learn that people can have disagreements on Scripture and it doesn't necessarily mean one or the other is unsaved. I am simply trying to point out that to believe in what the Reformed churches teach, one must read into Scripture. As John UK has with the man's healing by the pool.
So if Jesus healing this man had nothing to do with salvation, why bring it up? Though unbelievers are dead in a sense, they are still alive and most are able to make decisions relating to their eternity. Thanks be to God for His intervening because He wants all to be saved.
"John, you are incorrect that I am theorizing it somehow and relating it to salvation. Not at all, that never entered my mind."
Now you are theorizing like with this man's healing, God doesn't select all for salvation and like with this man being healed, they don't complain about being saved by force afterward. You have tried to justify your views on this one instance where this man was healed. To do so is, not only adding to scripture what it doesn't say, but also, disregarding the times people had to do something to be healed or physically protected!
I think those men didn't quite understand faith and salvation. Salvation is complete in Christ and faith is not a work. So we can trust in Jesus to save us from the judgement we deserve and give us new sinless bodies at the Resurrection and that is not a meritorious work unto salvation.
I was just playing along, but I really don't agree with your first point.
"The first thing to notice is that by this Pool of Bethesda there was a MULTITUDE of very sick people."
It just says that many lay there to get healed. It doesn't say how many were there on that day. It may have been only during the season they laid there. It could be that this man was first in line, so to speak. It could be there were others there who Jesus healed also or others there He didn't heal. I don't think enough information is really given to say.
You do realize the man wanted to be healed? It's not like the man was opposed to God healing him. He had often times tried to get in to be healed, just to be beaten into the water, as he explained to Jesus. So Jesus healed him. This scenario doesn't work for your argument because it wasn't against the man's will and the man had been trying to be healed for sometime. Jesus desired to heal someone who had a desure to be healed and couldn't heal himself.
Not so, Pelagius believed everything that Calvin did except Pelagius believed nonbelievers would be enlightened to the truth supernaturally and then had a choice in the matter of whether they would believe or not. Calvin believed there was no choice (fatalistically determined). Pelagius was also open to the idea that one could become unsaved once they were saved. So there, I'm not Pelagian!