Unprofitable Servant... I will go look at those websites but did you not read anything I posted? It seems like you are just shrugging off the Word of God. I showed you where a persons faith is not considered a work of salvation . So you should stop saying that it is. Either try to be saved through obedience to the law or by having faith. Our decision! I also showed where nobody is given the Spirit until after having faith. Therefore, stop believing the Spirit gives someone the ability to believe prior to them being given the Spirit.
UNprofitable Servant...(12/5@7:46pm) Okay, I will play your game. I don't know anything about Calvinism. I might as well throw in Fatalism too. God differentiates between works of the law and faith. Faith towards God is not a work of the law which merits salvation. To him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. (Galatians 2:16). It is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5). It is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.â€ť (Acts 5:32). This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (Galatians 3:2). Meaning, did you receive the Spirit after you obeyed the law completely or after you heard the Gospel and became faithful? God gave the Holy Spirit to us also after(!!!) believing (Acts 11:17).
Unprofitable Servant wrote: 2. The Spirit quickens them to life so they see their need of Christ, grants them repentance and faith. 3. THEY EXERCISE that faith and call upon the name of the Lord for salvation. Note, no forcing, they call, but the enablement FOR THEM TO CALL came from the Spirit. The verses that support this have been given several times already. You have already acknowledge men need the Lord's help to be saved. Will not address what and I quote said at this point.
2) Seeing the need doesn't mean somebody will automatically believe. The Bible teaches that sinners know the truth, that is not the issue. The thing that makes sin so bad is that people come to know the truth and still sin. Adam knew the truth and still sinned. 3) Calvinist believe that God enlightens sinners so they have no other choice but to believe...forced.
Good points Mike! One of the few points that Christians on all sides of the spectrum do tend to agree on is "Perseverance of the saints". Why? Because that is the only one specifically stated in scripture. The other ones come from philosophical theories, dreamt up by man, and implied into scripture.
John UK wrote: 1)When you believed that Jesus is the Son of God, did anyone force you to believe that? 2)Could you have not believed that? 3)How so? 4)It is because faith in Jesus Christ is either there or it isn't. It is NOT an intellectual persuasion, as if anyone could convince you from proofs. 5)In that case it would not be faith but sight. Romans 3:9-12 KJV 6)You think this is the state of a saint? This is the unregenerate, by nature.
1) No, I don't believe like Calvinist/Fatalist. I wasn't already a faithful person (made so by God) who just needed to hear the truth to believe it. I was a sinner convicted of my sins prior to faith, resulting in my faith. 2) Yes, it was possible. 3) By suppressing the truth of the Gospel and hardening my heart. 4) Faith describes the whole process of repenting, believing, praying, etc. How can you say faith is already there before someone has faith? 5) Faith is a relationship of trusting in the God one knows is real. 6) It was those Israelites at that particular time. They were worse than the natural person because they knew the truth. To them belonged the prophets, the Law, and the promises.
John UK wrote: 1)So God "works faith", and the sinner "works faith". 2)What is the natural man (unregenerate) like? Is there is a decriptive text? Romans 3:11 KJV 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 3) Now John, how many understand? And how many seek God? According to the literal reading of the text, there are none. 4)...salvation at this point is still dependent only on the sinner; God has done all he can, and the rest is up to the sinner.
1) God brings about faith, but it is man who must believe. God enables, it is man who must do. He doesn't make them. 2) At least use a text that is talking about the natural man. Rms 3:11 is quoting Old Testament verses about the nation of Israel to prove that Jews are no better than Gentiles. 3) It literally says the Jews did not seek God at that time. 4) Whether the sinner believes or not, there is still salvation in Christ alone. Christ said it is finished! The work of salvation is finished and it is up to the sinner to believe.
John UK wrote: J4, if you do not grasp the simple doctrine that God works faith and a change of will in a sinner's heart right from the beginning, you will have problems with all of scripture. Observe: Philippians 2:12-13 KJV 12 Wherefore, my beloved... 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. God has a will, a pleasure (purpose). In his people, he "works" that will.
You once again seem to be arguing with me about something I haven't said. Jump to conclusions much? Of course God works faith and a change of will in a sinner's heart. Duh. The point I have made is that the sinner is able to on their own (through the preaching of the Gospel) to repent and believe. Then their will is changed by the power of the Holy Spirit. Phillipians 2 is speaking of believers, it doesn't mean unbelievers can't reject God's will for them. One can only believe if God wills it, but He wills that all believe freely, out of love. Not made too! What kind of love is forced?! It would be like slipping someone a date rape drug and saying, "She loves me!" because they didn't resist you.
If a sinner is unwilling to believe, but then God changes their minds so that they must believe, that is forcing faith on them that they previously had no desire to have. That's why I say "forced", because that is what Calvinist believe. Without God stepping in and making someone believe, they wouldn't respond to the Gospel in faith. I was pointing out in Luke 19 that Jesus wept over Jerusalem because He so wants people to believe and be saved, but they reject His will for them. Jesus is the object of faith. Without His life and work of salvation, along with Him sending out the preaching of the Gospel, nobody would believe. Faith is what people have toward Jesus. People excersise their faith out of their own rational brains.
1517 wrote: 1) A sinner doesn't believe THEN is saved. He is saved and his suppose choice or believe is the result of the work of God in him. 2) Apart from me (Jesus) you can do nothing. I am the one who is saying that God doesn't sit around, wringing his hands, and hopes people will believe they are saved by Christ.
1) Believers are saved by faith! Whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. Jesus didn't say whoever will have eternal life will believe afterward. 2) Believers could not believe in Jesus without His help. But nowhere does God teach that He forces people to believe with no ability to do otherwise. Okay, you got me! The Bible doesn't say Jesus wrings His hands. It does say, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, â€śIf you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. (Luke 19:41, 42 NKJV). Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christâ€™s behalf, be reconciled to God. (II Corinthians 5:20 NKJV). Behold, the Lord â€™s hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. (Isaiah 59:1 NKJV) What is God waiting on to hear before He saves?
1517 wrote: 1)You are perpetuating the classic "God looked down the corridors of time and saw who would believe" error. 2)Sheep do not choose their Shepperd, not do slaves choose their Master. 3)The Jews did not choose to be the CHOSEN people of God. 4)The scripture is blatantly clear and only the blind, ignorant, or willfully disobedient try to infuse the murkiness of man's righteousness into the true interpretation of them. I will not judge which one you are...you must CHOOSE that for yourself.
1) So are you saying God doesn't know who will believe?! How ignorant! Not that I even said God knows who will believe, though He does. 2) Sheep don't sin either, we are not really sheep, baah. Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that oneâ€™s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? (Romans 6:16 NKJV). 3) Not all the chosen people chose to believe either. 4) Where have I infused the righteousness of people into salvation?! I've been consistent to point out that there are none righteous but Jesus and that salvation is of the Lord. The righteousness which comes from our faith is the righteousness of Christ, not ours. Faith is not a work of righteousness.
GsTexas wrote: 1)I wasn't using that verse as proof of the Holy Spirits conviction, but as an example of God having predestinated his saints for salvation before the foundation of the world. 2)Now if it is those chosen by God who get saved, how can it be of ones own ability to have faith? 3)I do know however that salvation is not possible without the conviction of the Holy Spirit as I've demonstrated before, and wicked man would never of his own accord repent and believe the Gospel.
1) I don't understand how your statement pertains to ones ability to freely believe. If God saves those who believe, that doesn't mean they were forced to believe. 2) The ones chosen are believers and they are then saved from eternal death and eternal punishment. Salvation is obtained by faith by the believer, but that salvation won't occur until Judgement Day. 3) The sinner left to his own would not have the Gospel to convict him, but God has given us His word so that by hearing we may believe.
GsTexas wrote: Now if God chose the saints in the beginning for salvation, like this verse teaches, where does that leave your belief that anyone of his own power can believe and get saved without the conviction of the Holy Spirit?
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (II Thessalonians 2:13, 14 NKJV)
These verses don't speak of the Holy Spirit convicting of sins. They show the order of salvation in reverse. God chooses to save people through the calling of the Gospel. Then, by believing in the truth and becoming sanctified by the Spirit (which happens at baptism) they are saved from God's wrath and judgement which Paul just spoke about in verses 7-12. This passage is showing how God chose to save them, as He does for every believer. It is not saying that He chose to give these people a special ability (or power) to believe that nobody else had. The ability to believe comes from God, is excercised by man, and results in God saving them.
GsTexas wrote: 1) I'm not sure why you think that I believe that seeing as the point I've been trying to make is that salvation is the work of God, and not the result of mans understanding or own ability. 2) I don't agree with your interpretation of John 6:44,55 as I see nothing about ascending to heaven in those verses 3)Being spiritually dead and unable to believe in God does not mean they would be unable to sin, because sin reigns in the flesh: Romans 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death." Galatians 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, etc
1) Then why do you think it was necessary for Jesus to speak in parables? You don't believe people could believe anyway. 2) It's in the other verses I quoted you! What then if you should see the Son of Man ASCEND where He was before? (John 6:62 NKJV). Where do you think Jesus ascended to? How are believers going to come to Him unless they are drawn up to Him by The Father. 3) Yes it would because what makes one unable to believe in God? A inability to respond to Him. If nobody can respond, then it is impossable to sin.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: J4J, your #2 response went over my head. your number 5 answer contradicts what you say you believe, but will ask again the question you did not answer, Where do you believe that people GET the faith they use to obey the gospel?
2) To say someone is dead spiritually means they do not have eternal life. It doesn't mean a person has an inability to believe like a corpse. That would mean they would be unable to sin also because they would be "dead" to act one way or another toward God, either in obedience or disobedience. 5) How is that contradictory? I believe we have to be saved, but repenting and trusting in Jesus does not merit righteousness from God. Salvation is of the Lord Jesus and it is by His righteousness that we are saved. If someone has faith in God, that He will save him or her, it doesn't mean God owes them salvation because of what they did. They are not owed a righteous standing before God because of their faith. He will make them righteous (innocent) because that is what He promised to do, not because He owes it to that person for being obedient. People follow God (or reject them) of their own free will. As God has created us to be able to do.
GsTexas wrote: And why do you keep ignoring john 6:44, and 6:65 that clearly states that "No man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." That clearly shows that Holy Spirit must lead one to salvation, not mans own conviction.
I believe you are interpreting this text this way because someone taught it to you as a prooftext (but out of context) for Calvinist or Arminian belief. In context, He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. (John 3:31 NKJV). Who is He who came from above and comes from heaven? Jesus! He says, For I have come down from heaven. (John 6:38 NKJV). Jesus says, What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? (John 6:62 NKJV). Which they did! Where did He ascend to? Back to heaven where he descended from. Then Jesus said to them, â€śI shall be with you a little while longer, and then I go to Him who sent Me. You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come.â€ť (John 7:33, 34 NKJV). The point is, God is the one who will draw us up to heaven to be with the Lord. We cannot do it ourselves.
1517 wrote: You keep stating faith comes by hearing and, again, tout that all men have the ability to believe. The problem is there were those who LITERALLY heard and saw Jesus speak and do miracles right in front of them...some did not believe, but others praised God in heaven. 1)Why the extreme responses? Seriously, in Matthew, Jesus answers the disciples question about the purpose of parables and tells them "to you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom heaven, but to them it HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN."Throughout the NT Jesus ends his teachings with "those who have ears, let him hear". 2) According to you ALL have ears to hear, making Jesus a liar. This is unambiguous, crystal clear, word for word. There is no wiggle room...Only those who have been GIVEN ears to hear, will hear the gospel.
1) The Bible teaches many reasons people don't believe. What it doesn't teach is an inability to ever believe. Right? Right. 2) Even the disciples didn't understand His parables until further explanation and Jesus quit using parables before His ascension. The Apostles didn't use them, what does that imply? People understood the preaching of the Gospel. Jesus didn't lie! He used them for a particular time and purpose which is now over.
GsTexas wrote: 1) The point I'm making is that its not hearing the Gospel with your ears that leads to salvation, but hearing with your heart so to speak. 2) If just hearing the Gospel like you say leads one to salvation, why hasn't everyone who has heard the Gospel embraced it and got saved?
1) I know, I was joking about not preaching. Sinners, with decent enough hearing, can understand enough to have to suppress the truth in their minds. Those who murdered Stephen did so because they were cut to the heart by his preaching. Look at this: And the disciples came and said to Him, â€śWhy do You speak to them in parables?â€ť He answered and said to them, â€śBecause it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. (Matt 13:11,13). The whole reason for parables is so those who did not believe would not understand, which they would have been able to do otherwise. 2)Why do you think sinners are such good people that if they could just understand they would automatically believe?!
I am not avoiding John 6:44,65. However, I am out of space and will address it next time.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: 1)They won't see the truth for salvation in the preaching because they are blind!! The gospel is HID to them (II Cor.4) 2)They won't hear and be converted because they are spiritually dead. 3)If faith precedes regeneration then the devils in James 2 are saved, because they are said to have believed. 4)Why do you think you have to exalt man in salvation? 5) If the faith is self produce then it is a work of righteousness that I HAVE DONE
1) The gospel is veiled to them because they do not believe. It doesn't teach, as you suggest, that they never had an ability to believe. 2) When sinners who are alive are called dead it is because they don't have eternal life. It doesn't mean they are unable to sin or believe. 3) No, because the offer of salvation is to men, not demons. Even people in hell believe, but the offer is limited to the living. 4) People cannot save themselves! 5) Faith is not somehow a work, nor does it merit righteousness from God. The righteousness a believer receives is Jesus' and is a gift. God isn't obligated to give grace because of anything we have done. 6)7) The Gospel seed grows into eternal life, not faith. The ground determines the faith. Faith comes through hearing the gospel.
CV wrote: 1)What J4 is saying is that a sinner has the ability within himself to repent and believe? Why would he do that? Because the sinner has within himself, on his own, a love for Jesus and a fear of hell. 2) But we shouldn't boast... 3) I know I shouldn't boast, but I HAVE A RIGHT TO! J4 is humble & he wouldn't. But I would, & I have a right to. Where is boasting? 4)Paul is saying you have no leg (of self faith) to stand on. You have no right! 5)J4, I am a better man then Sam! Not even your god can deny that!!
1)Yes, but not "on his own" as you say. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17 NKJV). As God says. 2) We can not boast! Where is boasting then? It is excluded... By the law of faith. (Romans 3:27 NKJV). 3) Read point two. 4) He is saying there is no boasting in our works because we didn't earn righteousness by our works but by our faith. Works and faith are contrasted, they are not the same! Faith is not a work! 5) My God says for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23). Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. (Romans 3:9 NKJV).