ok thx john thats starting to come together for me
so in the case of Job, God allows satan to 'sift' him within certain limits, so in the case of the shooter God allowed satan to use a reprobate individual to do this like the Sabeans and the Chaldeans did to Job ?
and in the case of the flood or earthquakes 'natural' disaster God is the direct cause or we could say that the natural world is always on the brink of chaos and destruction due to sin entering the world and that its preserved because of divine providence but when this is removed then we get disasters ?
John UK wrote: Ahem. Mmmmmm. Ahhhhh. You mean you don't know who sent them, Charles.
didnt god send them john ?
thx 7xseven, obviously god did not tell the shooter to go to ny and shoot people so are you saying that god allowed satan to put evil in the heart of jobs persecutors ? i could go with that but is god still sovreign in this case ?
or like with the shooter god allowed satan to put it into the heart of the man to go and do this thing ? i could go with that also so long as its correct, how would one explain it in that way to grieving person (if they asked )
Castanet wrote: To level ANY blame at God for man's life of transgression AGAINST God is completely inconsistent with the righteousness, mercy and justice inherent within God and recorded in His Scripture.
apparently castanet im not explaining myself very well where do you get the idea im 'blaming ' god for anything ?
i said god can do what he likes for any reason he likes and it will be good and the creature has no grounds for complaint
i was considering Job this morning thanks to our sister jessica, a man righteous in all his ways look what happened to him.
who sent the chaldean and sabeans to slay his servants and animals and carry of his sons and daughters if not God ?
If God then sent these events to Job wht not the shooter to the folk of NY ?
and what about Jesus addressing the pharisees in Luke 11
Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: 50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation
IOW this generation which hadnt been alive would pay for the transgresions of the former, we dont understand that, but it is wise and good because its from God
yes its perfectly predictable name calling, i notice michael will not answer the questions hes been asked, probly because his 'theology ' cant deal with them, they are happy to take 'judge not lest ye be judged' totaly out of context when it suits them but fling to fling out accusations against fellow servants, which there is specific injunction for servants not to judge one another' (leave it to the master)
charles m wrote: Peter the self righteous blowhard who said he loved Jesus more than anyone but denied Him three times
NO castanet, false argument - I am not saying Sin originated with God it is some people who are saying that because Gods judgements have unpleasant consequences then they cant be from God - hah !
Ok so you understand that the flood was Gods righteous judgement, so that was diffrent from today then ? I mean the people who perished they didnt think it was bad ? Wrong, they knew to late it was from God, it didnt make it any better for them, God sent the shooter in judgement an unpleasant event but no diffrent from the flood
so long as christians are going to misrepresent god by saying he doesnt do 'bad ' things 'oh he wouldnt do that', 'he wouldnt kill you ' then they are never going to be able to explain Him
ha ha ! im still thinking on that one about venting the workshop, i didnt get it - something to do with a volcano and the walls shaking ?
im still doing the 4 at a time thing yes mainly cos i bbq them for friends after a good catch so when the fish are feeding i like to make sure i get enough but i also keep a spinner and light rod in the boat and mean to use it this year to do as you do make more sport of the fish so that is the plan
no i never tried praying for fish
i like to leave it to providence, i have noticed something queer tho, when i actually catch its often when i am not thinking about anything at all but looking at the mountains or the birds or the sea and the mind is completely in neutral even tho i am casting etc so when i feel the fish i suddenly come back from not even thinking about anything at all but just looking at stuff. its such a suprise that i know i have been drifting.
John UK wrote: The difference is, Charles, that I can accurate predict more earthquakes in Italy, simply because of the location, irrespective of sin, people, or God's judgment.
yes but thats the only point isnt it john ? i mean that is an observation, the conclusion which you appear to derive from it is that God is not managing His creation.
Isaiah 29:6 "Thou shalt be visited of the Lord of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire
Jesus himself controlled the elements and indeed it was this feature which made the disciples finally say 'what manner of man is this'
The God mocking swedes dont have earthquakes but as the imprisoned pastor (ake green ) said he feared that God would still punish them - his fears were correct 4000 of them received 'the grave of an ass' whilst holidaying in the paedophile perverts paradise of phuket - praise God I say, it encourages the saints to see Gods providence at work.
All these things are nothing remember, think about the terrible judgements to come, these things are just warnings and shadows of a great and fearful time soon coming upon the world
we should be using these things to warn people not to soothe them
Mike wrote: charles m, there doesn't seem to be much evidence that evil can be talked out of evil(diplomacy)
yup thats my observation but 'great nations' have responsibility to minimise the effects of war and to use diplomacy - but you have to be great not just militarily strong but have real diplomatic clout friends in the nations and respect, america doesnt have that now so force has become the only resort
personally i dont believe that talking to people does any good (outside the brethren) if i can i shoot first ask questions later but im an individual not a nation
The Bible clearly illustrates God is love, righteous, just, merciful, Holy; ..... Sin does not reside within these attributes.
Psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
well done, everything God does is good, icluding His wrath anger and jealousy which is a divine and perfect attribute - im not discomfited by any of Gods attributes - are you ? i preach the whole gospel not just what i think will go down easy with my listeners. its no help to suggest that sin resides within God just because some doctrines are difficult that is unbiblical.
We all deserve to be killed by God for our trangresions do we not or maybe you dont agree ?
I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:
mike, clearly in the context of the passage God would rather they turn His killing is not gratuitous the foregoing being true does it invalidate my passage of deut 32 ? Is that your intention ?
scripture cannot contradict itself and to use one passage to invalidate another is futile, they must both be true
Gods vengence against His enemies is a treasure held in store
if we cannot reconcile these passages the fault lies with our understanding, i dont find them contradictory
ive got that kent hovind set jessica i was so exited when it arrived and i wasnt disapointed ive got lots of others now from diffrent sources and i plan to learn more so i can give presentations to encourage the brethren, some weeks ago (ive got to get the timing right as there is a man called DJC49 on the forum and he dosent like it if you say a few weeks and really it was a month or two !) ahem 6 weeks ago, i gave a talk on Jesus and genetics, information theory and DNA it seemed to go down very well
you can measure the decline of a nation or civilasation from the point at which diplomacy or the threat of force does not achieve an end
America doenst have any friends or authority in the world so it is obliged to use force - when you have to use force your authority and influence has failed, when third world countries challenge much richer and stronger countries the result is always a partial humiliation for the stronger country even if they 'win' and sometimes they lose which is even worse.
also a sign of decline is where the leaders of the more powerful country dont appreciate the issues of the weaker country and arent really interested in diplomacy as they mistakenly believe that they already have the answer if they so choose in the use of force
''I sincerely hope that Darwin will help and bring you to the truth''
Ha ha ! Darwin the truth ! youll find out soon enough buddy you wata pin your eternity on the religeon of evolution - thats your funeral, you will have an eternity to wonder at your credulity, be astonished that you could believe the evolution fairy tale.
'they have made lies their refuge but it shall not stand'
very unpleasant Jessica, truly Gods wrath is being revealed from heavan against all mankind, guns make it easy for this kind of thing to happen but of course they are not the cause. I havent been to america for many years but it seems to me a violent and insecure culture Guns do have a peculiar fascination for the wrong kind of people it must be admitted..
we get suicides here of course, many years ago a neighbours son cut his stomach open and people are always topping themselves in cars etc they will always find a way
Id rather rely on God for my protection and stay away from bad people and places altogether but experience shows that this is not enough and one must take responsible precautions
Dear Jessica, i am sorry to hear that you must suffer every day - luckily i am healthy so far but it certainly puts the odd bad day in perspective when there are those who have a terrrible day every day like yourself i hope i can be more grateful for my health. I am sure you have consided these things a lot, Spurgeon suffered repeated terrible illness and pain for prolonged periods and had to recuperate in the south of france and paul had 'a thorn in the flesh ' whatever that is.
please dont think the brethren are squabbling these are very important issues and i am looking forward to some useful replies to the difficult questions i have raised.
In the UK the law abiding people dont have guns but the criminals do so we have to make our own non gun arrangements. I think it is right for a christian to defend themselves and in certain circumstances to take a life , the disciples were armed, this is because society is lawless and there are many at large who are lawless, if biblical Law obtained then we wouldnt need to
''But he takes no pleasure in it. Why does He not take pleasure in his own will, if he has ordained them to be destroyed?''
why do you think he does not take pleaure in it ?
''Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures? To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. ''
mike Did He weep at something He ordained? Or because "ye would not"?
the reprobation of the unvbelieving jews was ordained by God the father because 'they would not' the believing remnant escaped the events of ad70
mike ''If terrible things are no more than the will of the Creator, Satan is but a figurehead, and his efforts do nothing whatsoever.''
satan is a figurehead he is only allowed to do what the sovreign God permits its a measure of satans madness that he thinks otherwise
''When Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD, it was not because it was ordained to be destroyed. That would make the ordination the cause. Unbelief was the cause. That's why Jesus wept.''
ordination was the cause God put fanatical rebellion into the hearts of the zealots
yes thats why i am a 'calvinist' for want of a better phrase, i just dont see how in the world anyone can come to orthodoxy and the at least partial understanding of the mysterious things of the word unless it is supernaturally imparted smce the wisdom of god is so different from the natural man
John UK wrote: the Lord will reveal truth in due time, and it is such a delight to taste such enabling of the Lord, and humbling too. Also I know it is true that I have thought I had got something, only to have to reverse and think again. But other things are clear and definite, praise God. p.s. I've not heard Joel Beeke yet, but apparently he has sermons here, so if want a taster of his ministry before considering Aber, you could have a listen. I expect there will be many from Bangor church going.
yes and what is also exiting is the way that the extent of truth is revealed IOW the timing. Now i cant think of anything that i have finally decided upon which i have changed my mind but i have to add i simply wont hold a position until i am 100% certain i will just delay
what i observe is that if the individual is willing to be taught and put aside wordly inclinations then truth is revealed, but if not, if they are not willing to take scripture and face value then the deeper things such as election and sovreignty will not be revealed i have noticed that even amongst apparently earnest students this is not revealed