John UK wrote: (1) Another thing I would like to say, is that even the elect need persuasion when it comes to the gospel.
(2) Indeed, faith is a persuasion.
(3) I'm glad that men like Spurgeon will tell sinners that if they have not faith, ask God for it
(1) John FYI and edification *ONLY* the ELECT can receive the Gospel, the truth and the doctrines of grace. Which makes your point null and void as usual. Again we see your leaning towards the power of the human faculty and salvation by self Arminianism.
(2) Wrong again John. Faith is the gift of God which God provides to His elect and once born again and filled with the Holy Spirit (indwelling) the sinner does not require persuasion but truth which only the elect can receive. Only the elect can read the Scriptures with understanding.
(3) How can a sinner ask for faith when he cannot discern and is in enmity with God? 1Cor 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Rom 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
Michael Hranek wrote: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ..." John 6:44 Read that carefully, apparently Jesus acknowledges (1) the real Biblical depravity of man (2) the real Biblical ability of men, in this case, 'drawn by the Father' to indeed come to Him And also
There is 'no' - 'zero' ability in sinners to come to Christ - THAT is why GOD MUST draw them. 1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Born again believers with the indwelling Holy Spirit can come - Natural carnal man cannot and will not. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.
Michael Hranek wrote: So please reconsider Total Depravity
MH Here is Biblical verse confirmation of Total Depravity ......
Total Depravity in all mortals prevents salvation which can only come by Christ Jesus. Please be very aware of TD to ensure your conviction of the absolute necessity of the atonement by Christ Crucified, and the complete inadequacy of the sinner.
"8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1John 1:8/10
Check out these verses::- "The doctrine of total depravity (or total inability) says that all men, as a consequence of the Fall, are born morally corrupt, enslaved to sin, at enmity with God, and unable to please Him or even of themselves to turn to Christ for salvation. (Thus the necessity of a gracious, unconditional election.) Here is a sweeping survey of the biblical support for the doctrine."
John UK wrote: "God now commandeth all men everywhere to repent". Yes, it is a command. So that if you don't do that, you will not get saved. The apostles preached repentance toward God and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ, and if you don't repent and believe, you won't get saved, no matter what excuses you bring to the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Repentance, like faith is the GIFT of God. Acts 11:18 Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Only those who receive the gift can believe and repent. They are the elect.
Remember the excellent teaching of the WCF Catechism. Q76: What is repentance unto life? A76: Repentance unto life is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit  and word of God, whereby, out of the sight and sense, not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, and upon the apprehension of Godâ€™s mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, he so grieves for  and hates his sins, as that he turns from them all to God, purposing and endeavoring constantly to walk with him in all the ways of new obedience.
Obey God! 'If' you can?? Obedience comes by grace alone.
Rom 13. "He calls them the higher powers, not the supreme, who possess the chief authority, but such as excel other men. Magistrates are then thus called with regard to their subjects, and not as compared with each other. And it seems indeed to me, that the Apostle intended by this word to take away the frivolous curiosity of men, who are wont often to inquire by what right they who rule have obtained their authority; but it ought to be enough for us, that they do rule; for they have not ascended by their own power into this high station, but have been placed there by the Lord's hand. And by mentioning every soul, he removes every exception, lest any one should claim an immunity from the common duty of obedience.
"For there is no power," etc. The reason why we ought to be subject to magistrates is, because they are constituted by God's ordination. For since it pleases God thus to govern the world, he who attempts to invert the order of God, and thus to resist God himself, despises his power; since to despise the providence of him who is the founder of civil power, is to carry on war with him." (John Calvin)
Michael Hranek wrote: He Himself puts His children to praying btw, so that He might answer them, .... He puts His preachers to TEACHING His Word and Preaching His Son Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior so that lost people whom He has choosen before the foundation of the world would be saved
Why Michael that's much better you have actually involved God in the work of His disciples and Ministers.
Remember; Phil 2:13 For it is GOD which WORKETH in you both to WILL and to DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE. Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of him who WORKETH all things after the counsel of ***HIS OWN WILL.***
And remember "faith" is the gift of God to HIS Elect only.
So you are doing well now Michael I am impressed. And that last phrase about the elect being chosen at the foundation of the world is Great Biblical Calvinism. Keep it up Michael.
Oh BTW tell your buddies below all about the SOVEREIGNTY of God being absolute - NOT limited.
Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. Isaiah 46:9,10. Prov 19:21. Rom 8:28. Rom 9:18. Rom 9:21. And much much more....
Michael Hranek wrote: If we were seeing the Gospel really preached in the fear of the LORD, in the Power of the Spirit, real Christian preaching (as in preaching Jesus Christ not just a little lip service to Him) in churches fervant in their praying we would be seeing people genuinely saved, born again, converted
I guess what you are saying here Michael is that the Lord is failing in His duty to save the elect, some of whom you can obviously perceive are not being saved???
Perhaps you should complain directly to God that He is not achieving the levels of conversion and saving which you consider to be essential to your standards of building the church.
BTW For your edification:- Q73: How does faith justify a sinner in the sight of God? A73: Faith justifies a sinner in the sight of God, not because of those other graces which do always accompany it, or of good works that are the fruits of it, nor as if the grace of faith, or any act thereof, were imputed to him for his justification; but only as it is an instrument by which he receives and applies Christ and his righteousness. 1. Gal. 3:11; Rom. 3:28 2. Rom. 4:5; 10:10 3. John 1:12; Phil. 3:9; Gal. 2:16
Michael Hranek wrote: My issues is not so much with the WCF but with "teachers" like you who teach against obedience
Michael; I am really worried about you and your friends below who cannot interpret Scripture accurately and sufficiently to recognise the truths and Biblical doctrines in the WCF and Catechism.
Here is some expert exegesis for you from the Catechism.
L.Cat/Q71: How is justification an act of Godâ€™s free grace? A71: Although Christ, by his obedience and death, did make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to Godâ€™s justice in the behalf of them that are justified; yet inasmuch as God accepteth the satisfaction from a surety, which he might have demanded of them, and did provide this surety, his own only Son, imputing his righteousness to them, and requiring nothing of them for their justification but faith, which also is his gift, their justification is to them of free grace. 1. Rom. 5:8-10, 19 2. II Tim. 2:5-6; Heb. 7:22; 10:10; Matt. 20:28; Dan. 9:24, 26; Isa. 53:4-6, 10-12; Rom. 8:32; I Peter 1:18-19 3. II Cor. 5:21 4. Rom. 3:24-25 5. Eph. 2:8 6. Eph. 1:7
Michael. Notice how 'faith' is the gift of God according to Bible doctrine. Without this 'gift' the sinner cannot read truth anywhere.
Michael Hranek wrote: Yes, God does give Teachers.
And teachers don't just stand up in the pulpit and read out the Bible verbatim.
What they do is exegete and interpret that the congregation shall receive the explanation of the Word of God which the Holy Spirit (using means) can help them digest the doctrines fully, understandably and intelligibly.
That is what the WCF and its Catechism has always sought to achieve. A simplified "teacher" in book form.
12 FOR = **the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God"
The WCF does not work against Scripture - But WITH Scripture.
Example Cat/Q189: What doth the preface of the Lordâ€™s prayer teach us? A189: The preface of the Lordâ€™s prayer (contained in these words, Our Father which art in heaven,) teacheth us, when we pray, to draw near to God with confidence of his fatherly goodness, and our interest therein; with reverence, and all other childlike dispositions, heavenly affections, and due apprehensions of his sovereign power, majesty, and gracious condescension: as also, to pray with and for others. 1. Matt. 6:9 .... et al.
Michael Hranek wrote: the PROMISES God Himself gave to us in Seeking Him
Michael; God provided His Church with TEACHERS for HIS purpose. Try not to discount God's church building or disobey His intended purpose.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and **TEACHERS**; 12 FOR = **the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:"
Teachers, by God's grace, wrote and worked out the WCF and its Catechism for the express purpose of TEACHING the disciples of God. For example :- Cat./Q31: With whom was the covenant of grace made? A31: The covenant of grace was made with Christ as the second Adam, and in him with all the elect as his seed. 1. Gal. 3:16; Rom. 5:15-21; Isa. 53:10-11
Q61: Are all they saved who hear the gospel, and live in the church? A61: All that hear the gospel, and live in the visible church, ARE NOT SAVED; but they only who are true members of the church invisible. 1. John 12:38-40; Rom. 9:6; 11:7; Matt. 7:21; 22:14
Michael Hranek wrote: And of course for some they abuse election and predestination to stick their heads in the sand of one eyed hyper-predestinationism
Michael; Don't forget what the Biblical WCF Catechism teaches.
Q62: What is the visible church? A62: The visible church is a society made up of all such as in all ages and places of the world do profess the true religion, and of their children. 1. I Cor. 1:2; 12:13; Rom. 15:9-12; Rev. 7:9; Psa. 2:8; 22:27-31; 45:17; Matt. 28:19-20; Isa. 59:21 2. I Cor. 7:14; Acts 2:39; Rom. 11:16; Gen. 17:7
Q64: What is the invisible church? A64: The invisible church is the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one under Christ the head. 1. Eph. 1:20, 22-23; John 10:16, 11:52
Be sure to get your copy and learn Bible doctrine from it.
The Westminster Catechisms = http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=32704113333
John UK wrote: 1) Everyone has 5 points on: 2) I reckon the arminist would secretly like to have a tulip, because tulips are quite beautiful
1) Including JW's, Roman Catholics and all the cults that are out there. Many of course follow the heretical Arminians who wouldn't know the Bible from the bus timetable. For example the hyper Wesleyans. 2) You still having trouble spelling Arminian??
btw. Just to inform you of the Biblical and truthful character of the Canons of Dordt here is an article from them::- Art 17 "Since we are to judge of the will of God from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature, but in virtue of the covenant of grace, in which they, together with the parents, are comprehended, godly parents have no reason to doubt of the election and salvation of their children, whom it pleaseth God to call out of this life in their infancy" (Canons of Dordt)
Michael Hranek wrote: I hate an UNBiblcial Partially Biblical Calvinism
But Michael you don't follow the Biblical Doctrines of Grace TULIP, the Bible teaching of the Westminster Confession of Faith, The Scripture defending Canons of Dordt and the Reformed Standards. Therefore it is your perception of Biblical Calvinism which is tainted by Unbiblical ideologies.
"That some receive the gift of faith from God, and others do not receive it proceeds from God's eternal decree, "For known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world," Acts 15:18."Who worketh all things after the counsel of his will," Ephesians 1:11.According to which decree, he graciously softens the hearts of the elect, however obstinate, and inclines them to believe, while he leaves the non-elect in his just judgment to their own wickedness and obduracy. And herein is especially displayed the profound, and merciful, and at the same time the righteous discrimination between men, equally involved in ruin; or that decree of election and reprobation, revealed in the Word of God, which though men of perverse, impure and unstable minds wrest to their own destruction, yet to holy and pious souls affords unspeakable consolation." (Canons of Dordt)
Michael Hranek wrote: I tend to disagree with your premise. If anything the party of Dhort fears people reading/studying and living by and out what God Himself in the WHOLE BIBLE reveals and teaches
Michael "Dordt" "Dordt" Short for Dordrecht.
The Canons of Dordt which record the conflict between the real Christians - the Calvinists - and the Arminian (RCC style) heretics - Were written to teach the Biblical way of God's sovereignty and rejection of salvation by works - The popish doctrine which the Arminians adopted in their ignorance.
Now Michael I know you hate the Biblical Calvinist and Love the Arminian and his RCC theology - But do try to spell the terms correctly.
For your edification:- SA Sermon The Synod of Dordt (1618-19) http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=328121421586
Michael Hranek wrote: I am amazed how badly and utterly wrong you've intrepreted Scripture to fit your system of theology
MH. I am amazed how badly and utterly wrong you've intrepreted Scripture to fit your system of theology.
"The Sum of Saving Knowledge (1647). 3b) The covenant of grace, set down in the Old Testament before Christ came, and in the New since he came, is one and the same in substance, albeit different in outward administration: For the covenant in the Old Testament, being sealed with the ordinances of circumcision and the paschal lamb, did set forth Christ's death to come, and the benefits purchased by it, under the shadow of bloody sacrifices, and various ceremonies: but since Christ came, the covenant being sealed by the ordinances of baptism and the Lord's supper, does clearly hold forth Christ already crucified before our eyes, victorious over death and the grave, and gloriously ruling heaven and earth, for the good of his own people."
Read the questions properly John. They are about the all to human faculty of "doubt"
C.H.Spurgeon said "Others, who have attained to great strength and stability of faith, are nevertheless, at times, subjects of doubt. He who has a colossal faith will sometimes find that the clouds of fear float over the brow of his confidence. It is not possible, I suppose, so long as man is in this world, that he should be perfect in anything; and surely it seems to be quite impossible that he should be perfect in faith. Sometimes, indeed, the Lord purposely leaves his children, withdraws the divine inflowings of his grace, and permits them to begin to sink, in order that they may understand that faith is not their own work, but is at first the gift of God, and must always be maintained and kept alive in the heart by the fresh influence of the Holy Spirit."
CAB wrote: TULIP is 5 letters that stand for 5 heresies that just believing them, teaching them, means Hell
Don't worry CAB the Elect know the truth about TULIP and where it is found and authenticated in Scripture.
Now as far as your Arminian problem is concerned - Faith is the gift of God and if you didn't get faith by grace then your human faculties will only take you down the road to hell.
God doesn't pick a sinner just because he decides to go to church and follow Jesus, Matthew 7:21-23, demonstrates that.
God elected His followers before the foundation of the world. Eph 1:4,5 refers.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: = The Elect were predestinated. = According to the purpose of God - Note NO human input. = The counsel of His own will - That means God's will - NOT human will.
And don't forget that natural man pre saved is blind ignorant and alienated from God so he couldn't discern the way anyway. 1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Jim Lincoln wrote: Look up Amyraldism on Wikipedia 4 point Calvinism.
Jim. Your being only 4/5ths of the complete truth does that make you a full heretic anyway?
"So-called four-point Calvinism fails the test of biblical Calvinism because this view tends to see the TULIP as an abstraction rather than seeing it Christocentrically. The TULIP only works when we see Christ at its center. Consider the TULIP as a chiasm with the "L" at the top of the pyramid. It is Jesus Christ which makes sense of all the doctrines of grace. Four-point Calvinists who reject Limited Atonement but embrace irresistible grace must consider this: Irresistible grace is not some abstract doctrine but must be seen in relation to Jesus Christ, specially in relation to the grace purchased by Christ upon the cross. The Spirit of Christ illuminates, regenerates and effectually brings to faith his elect" (John Hendryx) http://www.monergism.com/topics/bad-theology/four-point-calvinism