John UK wrote: Gun carriers (for protection) are fundamentally Arminists, while Frenchies tend to believe in the words of Jesus, "You could have no power over me except it be given you from heaven," and other such sovereign God remedies.
Why John, does this mean you are trying to learn how to trust God completely for salvation? Or not?
Remember if you ever want to try to bear fruit, - Jesus (The Son of God) teaches : "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch CANNOT BEAR FRUIT OF ITSELF, except it abide in the vine; NO MORE CAN YE, except ye abide in me."
John UK wrote: There are vast numbers, falling into hellfire every week, muttering to themselves.....deceived.....deceived....
Now come on John how many times do we have to teach you? "ALL"" God's elect "WILL" be saved. God's elect are ~ Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" = WHO gets eternal life? = Jn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."
And = 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And This teaches that salvation by works doesn't work: 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
As I said earlier to Mike, Don't try to cut God out of the process. (And give the glory to the sinner)
Check the first part of the section #1 of the WCF at this point; - "is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts"
Canons of Dordt: "Faith is therefore to be considered as the gift of God, not on account of its being offered by God to man, to be accepted or rejected at his pleasure; but because it is in reality conferred, breathed, and infused into him; or even because God bestows the power or ability to believe, and then expects that man should by the exercise of his own free will, consent to the terms of that salvation, and actually believe in Christ; but because he who works in man both to will and to do, and indeed all things in all, produces both the will to believe, and the act of believing also." (H.3/4 art 14)
Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you BOTH to WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure."
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who WORKETH ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will"
1Peter 1:5 Who are kept by THE POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
If we remove sin or remove part of sin and its effect and influence upon the mortal then we raise man to a position which is not Biblical or true.
When sin is either removed or compromised or reduced - then we allow and proceed to a conviction where we can save ourself.
The Arminian philosophy by its rejection of Total Depravity compromises with sin and seeks to make the person better than they really are. This differs from Scripture which reveals man to be so sinful that God had to send His beloved Son to die upon a cross to save anybody.
This deception and false witness of Graham and his fellow Arminians comes from sin itself which seeks to masquerade as "not so bad a malady after all."
The Arminian motto appears to be - "Weaken sin and become god." - Thus does it believe that 'salvation by works' - works.
The Biblical solution is TULIP - The Doctrines of Grace.
John UK wrote: I could very easily sit down with Brother Saint Michael and have some sweet fellowship with him, even with the differences between us
John. You should try not to encourage the free wheeling Arminians even if you are a devout Hyper-Wesleyan. What you should be doing is teaching them to learn the Biblical Doctrines of Grace, the TULIP. In these times of dreadful apostasy we have Arminian churches such as the Church of England and their Episcopalian cousins and you are implying that this type of free will theology is acceptable. But it is the seed to Liberalism. Bad enough that your denomination has rejected the Old Testament and God's Covenant of Grace, that you should also be flogging the papist salvation by works. Free will is blasphemy and idolatry by the rejection of God and our crucified Christ. What all this human power you and Michael advocate will do is more apostasy and less Bible doctrine. If only you folks could understand Total Depravity then perhaps you would understand true Sovereignty of God and the barren landscape of the natural man dominated by sin. Beginning with that approach in evangelism would present God and the Bible in proper perspective to the unsaved. After all that's the Bible.
Mike wrote: "Enter ye at the strait gate.." sounds like wisdom speaking, followed by the reasons to listen and respond. What it does not sound like is that he is speaking to those who cannot respond.
Mike. Jesus is NOT speaking to those who cannot respond. (They cannot hear. They are dead in sin) That is the whole point of the Bible it is written to those who are given the ability to respond BY GOD. That is faith the gift of God. Eph 2:8/9. NOT the works of man. It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which enables the sinner to respond by faith from God.
Pre-indwelling sinners are enemies of God and hate Him thus they would not even begin to think of responding.
"Responding" also comes from God and is by faith. The elect of God are the people who are enabled by the Holy Spirit to respond in a positive and Christian way.
Many call Christ Lord, Lord but HE does not know them in a saving way. Thus there are religious unsaved sinners who remain in their natural estate but go to church. Thus there will be much "theology"(?) out there that is man made and not Biblical. The most popular one which can be seen in many churches and in all cults is the ideology that man can contribute to his own salvation.
John UK wrote: Of all those who are born again by God's Spirit, I reckon 99% are living out of their flesh rather than walking in the Spirit. It may even be 100%. I believe the fundamental blueprint for God's people has been abandoned
John. You have left God and grace out of your equation for the "perfect" Christian. Is that because you are convinced that human abilities and faculties of the mortal contributes predominantly to Christian witness and salvation?
Obviously you have recorded in your post what your personal observation is of the work and purpose of God on earth today is.
God sent His Son Jesus to earth to die upon a cross. Now from your perspective that act of God must seem wrong and wicked. Why would a Father do that to His child?
This is what is reflected in your post - The question of why God is failing to be nice and save everybody.
Or why is man not jumping over the "Strait Gate" using his all too human but arbitrary saving faculties.
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Mat 7:13,14.
Michael Hranek wrote: You have my permission to go play with yourself and your friends in the snow
Christians don't say things like that in doctrinal debate. If you cannot debate in an adult way on the forum perhaps you should think seriously about debating, it may not be your forte.
btw: The verses I quoted are not from the Canons of Dordrecht (Dordt). They come from a book called the Bible which was written by God.
Jesus commands us: 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."
PS: Dictionary: Definition: "Forte" = "a person's strong suit, or most highly developed characteristic, talent, or skill; something that one excels in:
Michael Hranek wrote: worse may fail to exercise the free will God has given you to choose to receive His Son Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior
MH Aaahh "Free-Will" - I love it when you Roman Arminians bring on the free will of man - What that immediately does of course is remind us that you guys can't deal with SIN properly.
Remember Michael that there is no such animal as free will in the sinners. Nope as Katy Perry demonstrates in her life she does not have free will she is dominated by sin like all reprobates. The human will is DOMINATED by sin. Get it?
As for the sinner "choosing" Christ/Saviour - he can't. The sinner in his natural estate is at enmity with God and cannot even discern never mind think spiritually. He cannot see the need for a Saviour = BECAUSE OF SIN.
1Cor 2:14 "But the natural man RECEIVETH NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: NEITHER can he KNOW THEM, because they are spiritually discerned."
Rom 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is ENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."
In his natural state the sinner HATES JESUS:- John 15:25 "They hated me without a cause" They cannot seek or receive Christ, someone they hate - can they?
Michael Hranek wrote: Your premise is seriously flawed
No MH. Just that one of us is right and the other is wrong. When you look back at the history of theology you find that the Sovereignty factor of God has been argued against by the free will of man advocates. So it is nothing new that man thinks he can save himself or at least contribute to salvation. Faith and the knowledge and understanding which comes with it is vastly different in its end product than human effort. Yet both build churches.
Michael Hranek wrote: know the things of the Spirit of God, therefore know/identify "religious apostates" because they do NOT love one another but only "their religion"
MH What the religious reprobate "knows" is from his own speculations. (eg: Matthew 7:21-23). Similar to the reprobates who "believe" in evolution which is just mans speculations on what he cannot understand and not truth.
The True Christian By Grace, By Faith is providentially given knowing access to the truth of Scripture. The Holy Spirit works in the heart and mind of the True Christian to reveal the ways and mind of God and His Son.
Thus the non-Christian who may even attend church cannot read Scripture and comprehend the truth and doctrine of the Word of God.
An example of this are the Doctrines of Grace. Coming, as they do, from "Grace" is a revealing truth in itself, AND a litmus test of Christian doctrine.
For example are you aware that God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, Paul and the apostles are all Five Point Calvinist in their doctrines?
With accurate exegesis one can reject the utterances of the likes of Katy Perry and religious reprobates and see the truth - the whole counsel of God.
Frank wrote: Christ is a 5 pointer and since all true Christians are 5 pointers
"So-called four-point Calvinism fails the test of biblical Calvinism because this view tends to see the TULIP as an abstraction rather than seeing it Christocentrically. The TULIP only works when we see Christ at its center. Consider the TULIP as a chiasm with the "L" at the top of the pyramid. It is Jesus Christ which makes sense of all the doctrines of grace. Four-point Calvinists who reject Limited Atonement but embrace irresistible grace must consider this: Irresistible grace is not some abstract doctrine but must be seen in relation to Jesus Christ, specially in relation to the grace purchased by Christ upon the cross. The Spirit of Christ illuminates, regenerates and effectually brings to faith his elect." http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/interpretivekey.html
Michael Hranek wrote: (A) While I am not a fan of BG While I believe he has some serious errors that need correction
(B) When Calvinism goes bad. Part 1 and Part 4 are helpful to me in understanding what seems to be a hyper out of control
(A) Serious errors in theology are called heresy Michael. And heresy is dangerous sinful and destroys churches and God's witness. Serious errors such as Arminianism Graham's style of preaching is called false witness in the Bible and true Christians are warned against it. Beware of Satan's confusions.
(B) There Can Be No Compromise Between Calvinism & Arminianism, Refuting Arminian Heresy http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=5713132409
1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Westminster Confession Catechism. Excellent Bible teaching and sound doctrine by true Christians.
Q12: What are the decrees of God? A12: Godâ€™s decrees are the wise, free, and holy acts of the counsel of his will, whereby, from all eternity, he hath, for his own glory, unchangeably foreordained: Whatsoever comes to pass in time, especially concerning angels and men.
Q13: What hath God especially decreed concerning angels and men? A13: God, by an eternal and immutable decree, out of his mere love, for the praise of his glorious grace, to be manifested in due time, hath elected some angels to glory; and in Christ hath chosen some men to eternal life, and the means thereof: and also, according to his sovereign power, and the unsearchable counsel of his own will (whereby he extendeth or withholdeth favor as he pleases), hath passed by and foreordained the rest to dishonor and wrath, to be for their sin inflicted, to the praise of the glory of his justice.
1. I Tim. 5:21 2. Eph. 1:4-6; II Thess. 2:13-14 3. Rom. 9:17-18, 21-22; Matt. 11:25-26; II Tim. 2:20; Jude 1:4; I Peter 2:8
John UK wrote: (1) Another thing I would like to say, is that even the elect need persuasion when it comes to the gospel.
(2) Indeed, faith is a persuasion.
(3) I'm glad that men like Spurgeon will tell sinners that if they have not faith, ask God for it
(1) John FYI and edification *ONLY* the ELECT can receive the Gospel, the truth and the doctrines of grace. Which makes your point null and void as usual. Again we see your leaning towards the power of the human faculty and salvation by self Arminianism.
(2) Wrong again John. Faith is the gift of God which God provides to His elect and once born again and filled with the Holy Spirit (indwelling) the sinner does not require persuasion but truth which only the elect can receive. Only the elect can read the Scriptures with understanding.
(3) How can a sinner ask for faith when he cannot discern and is in enmity with God? 1Cor 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Rom 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."