John UK wrote: Why is it so important to you that people on this protestant website acknowledge that there are some of God's blood-bought people within the folds of the RCC?
It isn't! I just came on site with one alternative as you and others seemed to be attacking from the presumption of theological superiority, instead of appreciating God's sovereignty in the saving of the elect wherever HE might ordain they exist.
Indeed one of the commentators below posts from unChristian and satanic insolence. How sad that these religious reprobates fulfil the accusation of Matt 7:21-23.
Remember Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Lloyd-Jones's point was don't condemn the individual, - But do condemn the RCC "system" and defend from Scripture.
John UK wrote: Sure. If a believer was in the RCC, they would know that everyone else was unconverted, and they would not be able to enjoy any fellowship, because continual arguments would ensue
Your assumption is still that all the elect are theologically proficient enough to discern the vital differences between RCC theology and Reformed. I guess you must be convinced that God does not save the lesser mortals who do not have the intellectual expertise to perceive the essential polemics of this theological dispute. Isn't that philosophy from the arminian theory?
Beneath contempt wrote: Duh! How dumb!
Christians don't use insults like this. What religion are you from?
Lurker wrote: Am I to assume, then, that it is your firm belief and argument that the uncorrupted gospel Paul preached, Christ crucified, shines forth from the RCC?
No. ps: This debate has been about whether there are any of God's elect in the RCC as suggested by Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones.
The point I was making John is that not all individuals have the educational discernment to perceive the RCC theological position as ostensibly wrong. Lloyd-Jones statement as to the individual who can be both RC and Christian is a thought provoking one within this debate. The RCC theology is predominantly unBiblical in many areas for example graven image idolatry. But do we have the right to reject a person who attends the Roman church, (or any church) with the dedicated conviction to worship God regardless of the rituals and rites? Perhaps we are being judgmental where the piety of the person is a simple one and their religion is uncomplicated and elementary. Their place then in the great scheme of things will be as God has provided and we should not judge unknowingly. Even if the RCC does teach false doctrine as you have correctly highlighted, there may be some who listen and fail to discern the error, because they have not heard/received the alternatives. Is that the fault of the person or simply innocent benightedness. We approach here the area of arminian debate whereby we might establish human (educational) ability as contribution to salvation in the "right" denomination?
John UK wrote: It is impossible to "be" a Roman Catholic, and a Christian at the same time.
Ah then you disagree with Lloyd-Jones.
"There are, of course, individuals who are both Roman Catholics and Christians. You can be a Christian and yet be a Roman Catholic. My whole object is to try to show that such people are Christians in spite of the system to which they belong, and not because of it. But let us be clear about this; it is possible to be an individual Christian in the Roman Catholic Church." (Dr. M.Lloyd-Jones)
But your remark above brings us to theology again. Question, Are all of God's elect provided with the theological expertise and intellect to discern the difference between the RCC theological stance and the Reformed one, thus rejecting the one for the other?
Looking back over history we must be realistic about the educational ability or lack thereof, of many in the pews who simply did not have that expertise to apply the theological detail arguement, in order to reject the RCC in favor of Reformed doctrine.
Also is it not logical to assume that this is the case for some today also? Many of God's disciples are not erudite by nature, - Can we claim that God would discriminate against them because of this?
John UK wrote: John Yurich has expressed a similar testimony, after his response in his brother's evangelical nondenominational church (notice NOT Catholic). It is up to him to "make his calling and election sure", as the Bible teaches us to do.
Ah then that would suggest you "can" accept SteveR's premise that Roman Catholics can be true Christians?
John UK wrote: If you did not get the drift of it, what I was saying is that God can call his elect no matter where they are, and whatever they are doing. This OF COURSE includes folks who were born Catholics, attend Catholic services
John. Do you believe that there are Christians in the Roman Catholic church?
"There are, of course, individuals who are both Roman Catholics and Christians. You can be a Christian and yet be a Roman Catholic. My whole object is to try to show that such people are Christians in spite of the system to which they belong, and not because of it. But let us be clear about this; it is possible to be an individual Christian in the Roman Catholic Church. I am not considering individuals, nor am I considering the matter mainly from the political standpoint. I do not mean for a moment by that that the political aspect is not important. I have just been giving evidence to show that it can be tremendously important. We know the record of the history of this institution, we know what happens politically, we know its claim to be a political power, and therefore even from that aspect it is important. But I am not concerned about that now. That is the business of Christian laymen, it seems to me, and Christian statesmen. I am concerned rather with the spiritual aspect, because that is the thing which the apostle Paul puts before our minds." (Dr Martyn LLoyd-Jones)