s c wrote: Wise application of Scripture is always profitable...
I will confess it has been a long while since I watched a pro football game, I am somewhat surprised that you appear to watch them regularly considering your posts. A football coach doesn't have a job that surrounds him with scantily clad girls, just a bunch of sweaty guys. The cheerleaders aren't there for practice or when the staff is watching film of the other team or when they are drawing up x's an o's. They are only there on game day and last I knew they were behind the coach not in front. I will admit I have never seen a football coach pay attention to anything other than what was going on on the field. Your comparison to the restaurant staff seems to fall short because the waitresses would of necessity have to be on the floor at all times. (again haven't been to one it just stands to reason) There are many here that would undoubtedly despise professional sports period and possibly that is how you feel. I appreciate Coach Dungy's testimony and all he has been through. He was misquoted and maligned by the press. We have someone standing up for the Lord in a job where that is not the norm and all you have for him is criticism.
s c wrote: The writer said: "Tony Dungy is a man of character, integrity and faith--one who is committed to strengthening marriages..." I certainly couldn't judge Dungy's heart but Christian NFL coaches, players or celebrities lack credibility. I think that we are so desensitized as Christians that we fail to see the bigger problem at hand. Christians will come under judgment if they fail to carry the ball when it comes to the things which they subscribe to which counter Christianity.Dungy and other high profile Christians in the NFL don't have a problem with all of the sensuality surrounding them on a regular basis at each and every game...so their opinion on homosexuality should really be ignored any way.
I Corinthians 5
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world
â€śHamas does not care about the lives of Palestinians, does not care about the lives of Israelis or Americans. They donâ€™t care about their own lives. They consider dying for the sake of their ideology a way of worship,â€ť Yousef said.
What???? Peace loving, humanitarian Hamas? How could this be?
Jessica, it is not the murderers that are trying to influence common core curriculum to try and make killing an acceptable alternate lifestyle. It is not the drunkards that trying to close businesses for not supporting their drinking habits. It not the thieves that are calling people who speak against stealing thiefophobic. It is not the slanderers that are calling truth hate speech. We don't have a fornicators pride week or pro pornography parades. It is not the "people for covetousness" being supported by executive fiat from the current administration. It is not the extortioners that are pushing to silence the voice of Christians and have street preachers arrested for talking negatively of their sins.
However, all of that can be said of the LGBT community. They are currently one of the choicest of Satan's emissaries to persecute Christianity and to push us to a lawless society.
All sin needs to be preached against and abhorred. Thanks for that reminder.
As to speaking against certain sins more than others in the early church, there is much in the N.T. writings against Judiazers. Should Paul not have put an inordinate amount of writing against it because there were other sins prevalent in his day?
PursuitofTruth wrote: UPS wrote: Where do we find God foreordained all actions, the WCF, that is it. .... I've got more if you want 'em!
You know P.o.T., they key word here is one I have always used, all. You listed specific examples of specific people. I stated in an earlier post, "This isn't about the times of God's intervention in the affairs of men to work His will. This is about man's responsibility."
NONE of the verses you quoted, all great verses, say one word about God foreordaining ALL the actions of ALL men. They talk about God working His will in the hearts of specific men, i have never denied that. I am not even saying that God could not, if He willed, foreordain every action that anybody does, He is God.
I also will go on record to say this has nothing to do with whether we trust God or not, it has to do with blaming God for the actions of mankind and taking human responsibility out of the equation.
James Thomas, what you said is my view is not my view. It is the outworking of your doctrinal position.
This will be my last post in this thread as I have no desire to participate in a Calvinist/Arminian debate. I will check in to see if anybody answers my question about the model prayer.
PursuitofTruth wrote: .. We cannot understand this .
Dear P.o.T, in all due respect, that is what we term a cop out. The examples you site Trinity, eternity, etc. have multiple verse support in the Scripture. Where do we find God foreordained all actions, the WCF, that is it. No Bible verse backs it up. This isn't about the sovereignty of God or His rule. This isn't about His providence, or any of the points of TULIP. This isn't about the working of God in the salvation of sinners, nor God's omniscience or omnipotence. This isn't about the times of God's intervention in the affairs of men to work His will. This is about man's responsibility. For instance why would we give an account of every idle word if we only spoke what God preordained for us?
No one has chosen to answer my question about what has been termed the Lord's prayer. The answer I have seen from multiple sources is we can't comprehend it. James asked for Scriptural proof, I have brought up many. We have demonstrated the verses you and others quote don't teach that God predetermines all actions of men.
Brother John UK, not sure this discussion is going to make much more progress, may drop from the thread. God's blessings to all.
James 1:13-15 "13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: BUT EVERY MAN IS TEMPTED, WHEN HE DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST, and enticed.Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin...
No need to guard your heart with all diligence (Proverbs 4:23), a waste of time, you're just going to do what God preordained for you to do.
Psalm 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me. Just a prayer of a deceived man, his steps are already predetermined, it is pointless to pray for God's help for a closer walk.
Haggai 1:5 Now therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts; Consider your ways. ... Why should they consider what they cannot change? Not only that if we read on they obey the Lord and feared Him and instead of the leanness they experienced God said that He would be with them. Surely there is a mistake here somewhere
Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Another worthless admonition the people just need to let go and let God
James,thanks again for your reply. The verses are speaking of our redemption (v7), our inheritance (v11), our salvation through the gospel. Unless I am misunderstanding what you and Pursuit of Truth are saying, you are contending that every action we do is foreordained by God. These verses do not teach that. Only J4J is arguing against God's working in our salvation, I certainly am not. I don't dispute His providential work in our lives or the fact that all acts of godliness are His working it into our lives. I would say, for instance, that God has said there is no temptation that we face to which He has not given an end point (KJV way of escape) so that we can resist and overcome and not to succumb. Now, we know His goal (and hopefully ours)is that we sin not but when I choose to sin, that is not a God foreordained action, but it would of necessity have to be if all actions are foreordained by God from eternity past. People, even the lost, make choices. It is clear that we are held responsible for those choices. Why would our Lord upbraid cities for their unbelief if they were only doing what God had predetermined. I am beginning to think our differences are one of perspective.
James Thomas wrote: ... Your summation is why would God give commands if He already has programmed out eternity? Is this a fair assessment? Before I respond I want to be sure I understand. Thank you
First James,thanks for your clarification and your spirit. I still contend you cannot separate God foreordaining all actions and thus foreordaining the sins that are committed just because you add a caveat. All means all.
A few verses to answer your question
I Kings 3:14 And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.
James 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
Deut. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
These verses indicate there is a choice as to the path to take, or a recognition that we should seek God's will, all would be meaningless if all our actions are already foreordained. Thanks
PursuitofTruth wrote: UPS, So then how do you try to explain this verse? Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. There is a whole list of other verses I could site here, but how do you explain this one? And don't just twist scripture out of context, or try to lean on your own understanding, but try to explain how man is not used by God, even though the Bible explicitly says this!
Tell you what, you answer my question and I will answer yours.
One last thought. In the "Lord's prayer" we are commanded to pray that God's will be done in earth as it in heaven, why do that if it is fait accompli? Thanks.
and thanks Bible says, appreciate the verse
James will respond shortly to your inquiry, Lord willing
James, thanks for your patience. Many verses come to mind but space is short. There are many admonitions to the children of Israel to turn from their wickedness with the promise of blessing in return, would be needless if all actions are already preordained. We are told to add things to our faith, to lay aside all filthiness or flesh and spirit and pursue holiness in the fear of God, again useless if all actions are already preordained.
Eph. 1:11 is about God's work in our salvation not about God preordaination of ALL actions, please don't quote verses out of context.
no one is saying God doesn't not do whatever He pleases or questioning His omniscience or His ability to control the affairs of men.
Just like Pursuit of truth NONE of your verses bolster your point that God foreordains ALL the actions of men.
One last thought. In the "Lord's prayer" we are commanded to pray that God's will be done in earth as it in heaven, why do that if it is fait accompli? Thanks.
pennned wrote: Unprofitable Servant, I am not JoJo so I really cannot accept your apology....
I really did not think you were, she seems to be from another country, but seeing you were the one bring up the topic of discussion I used the only place in the forum to offer my apology as she has not said anything of my post, just you. I did, however try and make the distinction between what I said to you from what I said to her by addressing her by name in my post. Thanks
James Thomas wrote: My question was to you...Help me understand this with Scripture? I am trying to follow your thoughts. I have read the thread and your situations in which logic dictates your conclusion. I am asking for you to provide Scripture to come to your conclusion.
Fair enough will do so the good Lord willing tomorrow
pennned wrote: if you want to ascribe secret hate to posters, (I'm assuming that's what you mean about 'I don't believe her') that's kind of the theme around here, what can I do? might I suggest that there is a difference between "hate" and "criticism"?
ok pennned, I will retract and apologize for saying she has a hatred for jewish people. JoJo I misjudge your comment by reading between the lines things that I did not necessarily know are true, I trust you will forgive my misjudgment and anything I said that was mean-spirited.
James Thomas wrote: US said "He does NOT foreordain all human actions." Can you help me understand this through Scripture? God's word does say he is not the author of sin. No confusion on this topic. Does God foreordain all human actions? Thy will be done, not my will.
ball is in your court James, show me in the Bible where it says God foreordains ALL human action. My argument for my belief is in my previous post.
pennned wrote: fancy that, they've gone to the point that "loving neighbor" is now hate speech.
Ok penned, where is JoJo love for American Dispensatonal Christians? JoJo says she loves people who hate Christianity (jews and muslims) and all people, but apparently all people doesn't include anyone who believes in Dispensationsalism. Again, sorry if I don't believe her.
No matter how scholarly the people were that worked on the WCF or how much people on this forum object, if you say that God foreordains EVERYTHING that happens then you cannot write off making Him the author of sinful acts by adding a caveat to your statement. By definition that means Eve partook of the forbidden fruit because God made that the path she must take and likewise Adam falling in the transgression was the work of God in Adam's life. There is a difference between foreknowledge and foreordination.
NONE, ZERO, ZIP, NADA of the verses Pursuit of Truth referenced in ANYWAY imply that God foreordains everything that happens. There is your challenge try and show us how they do. You cannot say God foreordains all actions by everybody and also say He is not the author of sin. The Bible CLEARLY teaches He is not the author of sin, which means He does NOT foreordain all human actions.
Look closer needs to live up to his moniker, what about the tree of life? Why did God tell Adam not to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if he had no choice in the matter? God said why have you done this thing, because you have done this thing, not you were foreordained to do this thing. Plus you last question is blaming God for Adam and Eve's sin.
First, to Bible says, looks like you need to do some research, not all the members involved in the WCF were Bible scholars, there were 30 members of Parliament also in the mix.
P.o.T. no matter how scholarly the people were that worked on the WCF or how much people on this forum object, if you say that God foreordains EVERYTHING that happens then you cannot write off making Him the author of sinful acts by adding a caveat to your statement. By definition that means Eve partook of the forbidden fruit because God made that the path she must take and likewise Adam falling in the transgression was the work of God in Adam's life. There is a difference between foreknowledge and foreordination. Nothing catches God by surprise, God works things out for our good, God caused Cyrus to put out an edict for the rebuilding of the temple. God works all things after the counsel of His own will. None can stay His hand.
The Bible says He leads us in path of righteousness. Why do you think He would punish Israel according to the fruit of their doings if they were just doing what God ordained them to do? Why would He say the iniquity of the Amorites was not full yet, He hadn't made them sin enough?
Any responders spare me the sovereignty lecture (see comment 7/24/14 5:54 PM)
pennned wrote: Unprofitable Servant, how you can turn that statement into a statement of hate is beyond me. only in your mind.
Pennned, you are a dear sister in the Lord. I value you and what you say. I also know that you agree with the general jist of what the post said. However, just because he/she says those that don't share his/her beliefs don't love muslims and want to see them saved doesn't make it so. The brother/sister basically condemned those that don't hold his/her viewpoint as being false brethren destined for an eternity in hell. That would be the fate of false teachers. So, forgive me if I don't feel the love because he/she added a line at the end of his/her rant.