Universalists are misguided religionists who express all to human hopes and desires.
Free willers (Arminians, RCC, Liberals and others) are misguided religionists who would contribute to their own salvation.
Both witness to the effect that they do not completely trust in God and Scripture.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Both witness to the effect that they do not fully understand sin and its dominion.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
"WHO BELIEVE, ACCORDING to the WORKING of HIS MIGHTY POWER."
John UK wrote: We may continue, and please know that I am observing all your texts and arguments
John. I have noted in past that you respect the writing and teaching of C.H.Spurgeon. Here is an extract and a link to one of his sermons.
"Blessed be God that error has long ago been exploded, and we as Christian men, without exception, believe that God is as much in the lowest hell as in the highest heaven, and as truly among the sinful hosts of mortals, as among the blissful choir of immaculate immortals, who day without night praise his name. We believe that he filleth heaven and earth, and hell; that he is in the very space which his creation seems to claim, for creatures do not displease God; and even the space which is occupied by his handiworks is still filled with himself." CHS
Lurker wrote: Then God is present in the lake of fire? A simple yes or no will do just fine.
The lake of fire, Lurker? Is a spiritual entity agreed?
Do you perceive the spiritual realm as physical space with places which are "no entry" to the Lord?
In the lake of fire or hell - Do you think that the sin in them can taint God by His going into them?
Is spiritual realm the same as temporal with land/water/space physical areas where the physical bipeds travel to and fro?
John UK wrote: You're one of these irreverent reprobates who delights in making a mockery of theological and biblical beliefs
Ooops sorry John if I touched a nerve there. I meant no jest or insult to you or your convictions. I simply pointed to the allusion of a less than omnipresence physical reality in humourous way. I have been debating with you too long to try to insult you brother. Again I apologise and beg your forgiveness.
I suppose it actually seems strange for me to deal with God as not being omnipresent, simply from the perspective of never seeking to restrict or limit the Creator, if nothing else.
John UK wrote: Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven; and when thou hearest, forgive. 2 Chronicles 6:21 KJV
Oh I see now John You think that heaven is that great big block of tarmac up there in the sky. And YOUR god is the fella stood on it waving to you and trying to get the attention of his followers. Right??? Does he use a flying saucer to get close to you???
Jer 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
"at hand" compared with "afar off" does not mean "John's House" versus "Cardiff" believe it or not John. BTW I am not trying to shock you here!
"filling heaven and earth" means that God has quite a vast range and NONE are hidden from Him wherever they are. So why do you and Lurker seek to limit the range of God? Is there an ulterior motive here?
BTW "absent versus present" 2Cor 5:8 - obviously is the difference between bodily dead and spiritually alive with Christ. Thus spiritually released from the mortal coil.
Lurker wrote: because our God [is] not among us? (Deut 31:16-17)
I can't believe that you think these verses deny omnipresence???
Verse 18 goes on to say 18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they..." Now God here says He will hide His face. I presume you continue with the literal explanation and teach that God is playing "peek-a-boo" with His children. Yes!!
God may test His people by withdrawing His help in some form. But that does NOT mean He takes the bus home!
Lurker wrote: I will go [and] return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face(Hos 5:15)
Tell me Lurker can you see God? Or do you have faith to "perceive" God, His Son and the Holy Ghost?
God is Spirit and we can't see Him except by faith - the faith which He gives us as a gift. Yes there are times which we will not experience God by faith.
That does not mean God is any the less God who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, Sovereign, almighty GOD.
Let me ask you Lurker "Do the reprobates *SEE* God?" - WHY not? - Is it because *HE IS NOT THERE* or because God has not provided the means to perceive Him by faith?
Lurker wrote: I don't blame you for not wanting to be referred to as a lazy Christian but creating a strawman from my comments is not the solution. The point is not whether these writers of commentaries are right or wrong but the means Christians employ
The TRUTH has always been true whether today, four centuries ago or in Bible times.
I can SEE the TRUTH in the Reformers writings. You apparently cannot. That leaves me to judge you accordingly.
As for those who declare they only get their truth from Scripture - these invariably say this because they DISAGREE with the Reformed writings on the board.
Whom I trust for the TRUTH is the same Holy Ghost as the Reformers did.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
John UK wrote: You claim that they are, don't you? So why not have a try at Lurker's question which you seem to shy away from
As I have already stated John, the SCRIPTURE's REVEAL GOD'S OMNIPRESENCE. (God is in Trinity BTW) EG. 1Kings 8:27, Isaiah 66:1, Acts 7:48,49, Psalm 139:7-12, Jer 23:23,24, Acts 17:27,28. FACT!
John UK wrote: And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Matthew 28:18-20 KJV Our blessed Lord is with his evangelising disciples by his Spirit. That is what I said, and that is what I say again. Why can you not understand my language? Is it not simple enough for you?
John; Is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit OMNIPRESENT???
John UK wrote: But God the Son is in heaven, and God the Holy Ghost is on earth.
John In your previous post 12/6/09 9:02AM You said
John UK wrote: He is a genuinely, physically, resurrected BODY, inseparably joined to God. The best description I know of is the God-Man.
The Body part is not omnipresent.
The God part is omnipresent.
Is that correct?
So that when Jesus tells his disciples that HE will be with them after his ascension, it is not HE in his body, but HE in his SPIRIT.
Is that not correct?
Have you changed your mind again John?
Lurker wrote: lazy Christian whose final authority is the writings of men and sole defense is dogmatic speech coupled with cut and paste
I see Lurker that you are one of those people who believe that anything a Christian wrote before you were born is automatically wrong. I've come across this on the board before it seems a weird dismissive to hold. Do you believe that Christians in previous centuries were completely wrong about theology or could they not read the Bible?
In your religion are Christians only a modern phenomena? Do you take this strange hypothesis all the way back to the Apostles and doubt them too???
John UK wrote: because the truth is out there, and I for one intend to find it!
The TRUTH for the elect is that God IS omnipresent - and so is the Son of God and the Holy Ghost.
The idea that God can be tainted by sin when He exists in hell or anywhere else comes from those 'lurking' behind a lack of knowledge of the Trinity, creation and what they stand for.
"The omnipresence of God is clearly revealed in Scripture. Heaven and earth cannot contain Him, 1Kings 8:27; Isaiah 66:1; Acts 7:48,49; and at the same time HE fills both and is a God at hand, Psalm 139:7-10; Jer 23,24; Acts 17:27,28." (Berkhof)
At Jer 23: "(1.) God asserts his own omnipresence and omniscience in general, v23,24. When they told the people that no evil should befall them though they went on in their evil ways they went upon atheistical principles, that the Lord doth not see their sin, that he cannot judge through the dark cloud, that he will not require it; and therefore they must be taught the first principles of their religion, and confronted with the most incontestable self-evident truths. [1.] That though God's throne is prepared in the heavens, and this earth seems to be at a distance from him, yet he is a God here in this lower world" (Matt Henry)
John UK wrote: That God can be completely absent, except within the hearts of his people, even if it is just a spark?
God is omnipresent. Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
In His Children God is there in love, grace, forgiveness and salvation. In the unsaved God is there in righteous judgment.
"God is not diffused throughout creation as though he is partly here and partly there, but rather he is completely here, and completely there at the same time and with no loss to himself" (See L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology, 60-1).
John UK wrote: "How is it that "he comes to do a work in mankind" if he is already there due to omnipresence?
God does NOT "come" to do a work - This statement in the Bible is simply there to teach and communicate that God ordains to do this or that work upon His creatures.
Why do you persist in applying restrictions upon God?
Mike wrote: Where then was the Holy Spirit before he was sent? Sent from where if already everywhere? Can you reconcile these things?
Mike There are many enigmatic statements made in Scripture which we cannot fully comprehend. For example the "living water" verse about the Spirit. John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
As for your point on "sending" the Spirit, this refers to the task of the Spirit when He comes to do a work in mankind. EG. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Thus it does not prevent His omnipresence.
In your question you mention "everywhere" but in doing so, you are introducing the physical/material into the spiritual realm and that does not work. NB 1Kings:27, Acts 17:28.
John UK wrote: #1 The "Trinity of Three Distinct Persons" is 3 Spirits: Father Son Spirit. The Father does not have a spirit, neither Son, neither Spirit. The Spirit of God is a distinct Person (3rd Person) and this Spirit is the Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost. Also known in the NT as the Spirit of Christ.
It may be the way you have written this John, but it doesn't make sense to me.
John 4:24 GOD IS A SPIRIT: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth"
Also Father, Son and Holy Ghost are listed separately here. Father in heaven - Son AND Holy Ghost on earth. "16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased"
Therefore, Three separate spirits all capable of omnipresence - obviously at the same time. It would be irrelevant to say "in the same space" because space is physical not spiritual.
John UK wrote: 1) I guess Thurlow will be doing his mental gyratory rounds for a while as he searches through Frenchy's writings for an answer to your point Mike.
2) At least we get our thinking from scripture, even though we disagree on a few points.
1) Still afraid of saying Calvin John. Oh ye of little faith.
2) Why thats exactly what the Pope says John. Well done. Now reflect on Matt 7:21-23. or Rev 3:14-20.
Mike wrote: Oh the mental gyrations we are willing to be in subjection to, as long it be sufficiently spiritual sounding.
Oh I know how you feel Mike. There are so many folks who try to reduce God, Christ, the Holy Spirit and divine power to human level and to even save themselves. Why they even believe faith is their very own faculty and that they can overcome sin all by themselves. Poor John is so confused that he believes Christ is the same as earthbound mortals in terms of spiritual power. He seems convinced that Christ is divinely and spiritually weakened by the flesh.
Good job that Biblical Calvinists know the Truth and God's sovereignty over His creatures and His creation.
John. - I have Moved to another thread. Ref:- Omnipresence/immanence.
John UK wrote: Our Lord Jesus Christ, Redeemer, Prophet, Priest and King, promises us that when even two or three are gathered in his name, he is there in the midst. I can understand how that is true and actual, not merely pious...
âAlthough the boundless essence of the Word was united with human nature into one person, we have no idea of any enclosing. The Son of God descended miraculously from heaven, yet without abandoning heaven; was pleased to be conceived miraculously in the Virginâs womb, to live on the earth, and hang upon the cross, and yet ALWAYS FILLED THE WORLD as from the beginningâ (Book II, 13ff.).