Darren wrote:
2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Could somebody please explain to me what this verse really means? If God's will is never revoked why do some people go to hell?

1) Who is the statement directed to? "...but is longsuffering to us-ward." Who is "us" and referred to in verse 1, "This is the second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you...". And, if you look at who 1 Peter is addressing, "...to the strangers scattered throughout...Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." So, this statement is directed to the elect.

2) The "any" is referring to the "us"

3) The "all" here is refers to the "any" and can't refer to everyone because the Epistle refers to those who will be destroyed.

Imagine adding "of us" immediately after the "any" and "all".

John for Jesus wrote:
I'm not a big fan of this confession because it seems poorly written to say Jesus suffered the wrath of God for all mankind and then here that God will judge the sins of all mankind, which would seem to me to cause all to go to the Lake of Fire. I also have a red flag up about temporally being punished. Could mean purgatory.

Q12: Since, according to God's righteous judgment we deserve temporal and eternal punishment, how can we escape this punishment and be again received into favour?

A: God demands that His justice be satisfied. [1] Therefore full payment must be made either by ourselves or by another. [2]

[1] Ex 20:5, 23:7; Rom 2:1-11
[2] Is 53:11; Rom 8:3,4

John for Jesus wrote:
I am trying to say that Jesus didn't pay for His sins on the cross because He is righteous.

John for Jesus wrote:
I disagree that Jesus paid a price of eternal Hell on the cross because He is obviously in Heaven and eternity isn't over. Jesus erased the debt of sin that believers owed, so there is no need to pay for it anymore. If the debt was obliterated, then there is nothing for Him to pay for.

John UK wrote:
Who is the "righteous servant"?
Jesus.
How many shall he justify (declare righteous)?
Many.
How does he justify "many"?
He bears their iniquities.
Does he bear the iniquities of those he does not justify?
No.
So they have to bear their own iniquities?
Yes.
Simple theology, but hidden to them that believe not.
This is why Jesus spoke oft in parables, so that folks would not understand what he said. You want a chapter and verse on that?
No, of course you don't.

John UK wrote:
I am at least glad that in your last post you did not mention the You-Know-Whos.

Faks wrote:
Calvinists are scary. And before this one you had a post about hating Paul, that he's a bigot, and that you don't believe in Hell. And you and John are blood brothers or something?
Don't they have any nice people posting here, any nice Southern Baptists?

John for Jesus wrote:
Bizarre that we were predestined to God's wrath as unbelievers or that Jesus assended to the Father and we can't ome to Him on our own? God saves people from the Lake of Fire, where unbelievers are predestined to go. All saved people were once unbelievers. If you can go to Heaven apart from God show me.

The crucifixion of Jesus was predestined/decreed to occur before Earth was even created.

John for Jesus wrote:
2. Meaning one must be faithful in order to be of the group of people who were predestined. Prior to their faith they were predestined for God's wrath.
3. Read the whole text. It is in relation to Jesus going to His Father. He says where I go you cannot come? Where did Jesus go? Heaven. We can't just show up in Heaven unless God draws us the

reality wrote:
John for John;
You are making this up as you go along arn't you.

Mike wrote:
My old church being southern baptist reformed, is huge in " new Calvinism" they want to be relevant with the world. Instead of seperate.They want to be hip with the world. These men talk of Calvin and puritans, but Live there live much different.

John for Jesus wrote:
1. True, but it doesn't say we can't believe.
2. I ask you, who is the "us"? Verse one says it is the faithful. The faithful were predestined to be adopted.
3. We come to Jesus in Heaven after we die by God drawing us there.

re: 2: Yes, it is the faithful who were predestined v1 of Eph 1. The same ones who were "dead in sin" Eph 2:1 that were by nature children of wrath (v3) who were made alive with Christ (v5), saved by grace (v5, v8) through faith ***and not of themselves lest any should boast***. It was God's free gift.

John UK wrote:
...but keep these thoughts in mind while you are doing your daily readings, and you will see how it all fits together. And when you see it, you will never again argue against the Biblical Doctrines of Free and Sovereign Grace, which some unwittingly call Calvinism.

John for Jesus wrote:
At least in a lottery you have a chance to win. Calvinism is much more fatalistic then that, in that philosophy there are people who don't know there is a lottery and couldn't afford tickets if they did. They are doomed from birth without a chance.

The tragic fallen nature of man is that "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, **there is none that seeketh after God.**" (Rom 3:10-11)

However, Eph 1:4-6: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: *Having predestinated* us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, ***according to the good pleasure of his will***, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day"

Faks wrote:
Life is a test, not a lottery.

You do love your strawmen arguments as Luker stated. You keep wanting to assert that God must be like the one of your own design because "life is a test, not a lottery" to you. What blasphemy! You deny the power of God to save someone and keep them and then raise them up in the last day. You will never hear a Calvinist claim that life is a lottery. Unless God saves us, **none** would be saved. Rom 3:10-18, specifically (or tersely if you will), v11 "...there is none that seeketh after God..."

John 10 is not speaking of conditional security at all. Jesus said, "ye believe not" and He gives the *reason*, "because ye are not of my sheep"! Extrapolating out what that meant to the ones He addressed would be **if they had been sheep, then they would believe**. It is plain and even a child can understand it.

1 John 1:7, "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowhipo one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from [how many sins???] all sin."

Presby wrote:
Ah but don't forget Thomas Presbyterians use the Whole counsel of God including the OT.
And don't forget Thomas your method was only introduced in 1521.
Here is a sermon on SA to help you...
[URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=831051405]]]Confessions of a FORMER Baptist[/URL]

However, I would like to mention one thing regarding the notion that because something was alleged to have been introduced as recent as 1521 that it must be wrong. Martin Luther and John Calvin would both take issue with that I think. Should they have gone back to Rome because Rome rejected Sola Fide? The question is whether or not it is biblical.

Presby wrote:
I wish you poor old Baptists would learn the truth about Presbyterianism.
Oh! And I wish you poor old Baptists would learn the truth about baptism.

Faks wrote:
Actually Jesus' prayer in John 17:12 disproves your doctrinal statement: "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
There's also "Many are called and few are chosen."

More confounding Scripture to you and your doctrine: Jesus said in John 10:26, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." This, I fear may be you.

John 10:27-29, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."