Rufus wrote: 1913 was a major nail in the coffin of this republic and a major victory for the building of an empire. It was the end of freedom for Americans and a beginning in their enslavement. An end of national sovereignty and the beginning of global government and a new world order.
No, reject this progressive nonsense.
It was the Import taxes and tariffs that were a denial of God-given free markets and always resulted in a reduction of trade and a reduction in the wealth of nations and in freedom. It was not for nothing that tea was thrown into the docks.
Freedom requires the free flow of ideas, knowledge, capital, goods and people.
...And does anyone think it strange that terminology like "Life" and eternal life began to be used of God after the Spirit was given and because of it?
....And has anyone put it together that because the Spirit is given to eternally indwell men and never to leave him, this is grace defined? And because this occurs to all men who will believe the gospel of Christ over the face of the whole planet during this entire age, it is the dispensation of the grace of God?
The New Covenant has two main themes. Forgiveness of sins and the giving of the Spirit of God as a personal possession. The historical book of Acts records this action from the very beginning, first to the Jews and then to the world of the gentiles.
Paul says we , that is the church, have been saved this way, by regeneration of the Spirit and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. Ti 3:5
Weapon of Mass Instruction wrote: I thin One OneCov'T should give us an original and genuine exegesis if he is going to live up to his title. Until then he should change his location from "exegesis" to "cut and paste."
Here are some glaring deficiencies of understanding of all calvs. I said all calvs! All means all in this case.
1) They have NO understanding of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the OT.
2) They have NO understanding of the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the NT.
3) They cannot accurately define the church of Jesus Christ in the context of their theology.
4) They do not have understanding of the significance of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
5) They do not understand regeneration.
6) They cannot distinguish the difference in the ministry of God, the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.
7) They cannot, nor do they understand or even recognize the gospel of God.
V-1 in Christ Jesus: V-3 Eph 1:3 in Christ: Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us IN HIM (In Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him (God the Father) in love: (It does not say he hath chosen us TO BE SAVED in Christ, but that he hath chosen us In Him, I e he accepts us in Christ) Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. (None of us have arrived at the adoption yet because it is said to be equal with the resurrection and translation of the BODY of the redeemed â€“ see Ro 8:15, 23).
Next verse very important:
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted IN THE BELOVED (Christ).
One must remember that the church is unique to this age only since the cross and is composed of two entities, Jews and gentiles. This epistle explains this as being in the mind of God from before eternity.
Everyone whom God the Father chooses has chosen Christ and is IN HIM because he has chosen Christ before the foundation of the world. So Christ is the head and the believers is his body and the two make up the One New Man.
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in
I am sorry Boo but your verses you cited have nothing to do with the Spiritual gifts of the church or of the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
One must be careful when dealing with the prophetic word to understand when it is a prophecy to Israel. After all, God was dealing with them in Deut and Je and we have a real and substantial clue in your Je verse when he says "Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel,". This does not leave much need for speculation about who he is addressing, does it? Besides, how could a single nation come against the church when it is scattered all over the world?
The church was unknown in the OT and therefore there were no prophecies for it, except in type, which would have required it's manifestation to understand them. The prophecies for the church is contained in the NT, particularly Paul's epistles.
It is also instructive that none of the Jews were instructed to prove their conversion by speaking in tongues and none of them did. They were asked to prove their conversion by being baptised in water and yea that was made a condition for them to receive him. See Acts 2:38. This is further borne out to be true by the narrative about Phillip when God gave salvation to the Samaritans in Acts 8.
The next instance of tongues speaking after Ac 2 is Acts 10 when the Spirit was "poured out" on the gentiles some 10 years later and the "gift" was manifested in the same way and for the same reason it was in Acts 2. The Jews responded with understanding of what was happening because of the sign.
The important thing in Christianity is the Gift of the Spirit who regenerates and not the confirming sign. God needs no evidence that he has saved us and men have evidence of our conversion and possession of the Spitit by a sanctified life.
The following excerpts will prove what I have been saying about election = foundation.
One can read full definition here. http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AuZSTInjxmFDCKXO9mQ0c6IJ5wt.;_ylv=3?
"The doctrine of election declares that God, before the foundation of the world, chose certain individuals from among the fallen members of Adamâ€™s race to be the objects of his undeserved favor. These, and these only, he purposed to save. God could have chosen to save all men (for he had the power and authority to do so) or he could have chosen to save none (for he was under no obligation to show mercy to any) - but he did neither. Instead, he chose to save some and to exclude others. His eternal choice of particular sinners for salvation was not based upon any foreseen act or response on the part of those selected, but was based solely on his own good pleasure and sovereign will..."
In essence these particlar ones were saved before the world began.
"Those who were not chosen for salvation were passed by and left to their own evil devices and choices"
Thus election is the foundation of salvation and a 5th grader would understand this to be true.
Lurker wrote: If your version of election (God chooses those who choose Him) is true then neither camp has a problem for both profess salvation by grace through faith.
I am sorry Lurker but this is not a true statement and you have been here trying to convince since you have been posting that salvation is not by grace through faith. That is just a fact.
Why do I say that?
Because of the Ordo Salutis.
In that scenario, one must be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe. Therefore faith to believe must be given to him as a gift. That gift can not and will not be given to anyone who was not elected previously to receive it.
Now, it is not difficult to understand that regeneration occurs before believing and so salvation is predicated upon election and not faith because non elect cannot be regenerated and has no offer of the gift of faith.
The best that can be said about this religion is that it is being saved TO faith. It cannot and must not be said it is BY faith or THROUGH faith.
Anyway you turn this picture the view one gets is that everything is dependant upon election in the misty past. Therefore, it is the foundation of this religion.
I have more to say on this topic! I am out of room now.
Abigail wrote: GRACE is God's favor and goodwill, mercy and clemency, pardoning unworthy humanity that deserves hell, redeeming them from sin and death and giving them eternal life...
Grace is defined as the GIFT that God provides and that he promised Israel in the New Covenant but gave to the gentiles as a matter of mercy. That gift is the Holy Spirit, it is not faith. The OT saints had faith but they did not have the indwelling Spirit.
All the other graces to us, his church, that God mentions is due to the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit is forming the church since the resurrection by indwelling them and giving them eternal life (he is life and he is eternal and he will never leave us). He also baptizes us into the body, placing us in it at his own discretion thus making us one with Christ. This is what it means to be "in Christ". This is how God chooses us â€œin Christ, thus the Trinity is involved in our salvation. The church is his eternal purpose.
When the church is complete the present ministry of the Holy Spirit will be finished. The church, the habitation of the Spirit, will be taken, and the time of grace will be over and darkness will cover the earth until Jesus comes back in glory.
Please consider the irrefutable proof that God chooses them that choose him, that is those who believe.
Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, wrote these words to the gentiles.
2 Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation 1) through sanctification of the Spirit and 2) belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto (to salvation) 3) he called you by our gospel, 4) to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Spirit was poured out on the gentiles and evangelism to them began in Acts 10 between Corneilius and Peter. It has been ongoing since then. It had begun with the Jews in Acts 2 when the Spirit was poured out on them.
So, God calls all (by your own theology) BY THE GOSPEL and saves those who will believe. He then gives them the Spirit to indwell them, thus sanctifying (setting them apart for himself). Check out Corneilius for proof of this.
One cannot be "in Christ" without the Spirit see Ro 8:9 and the Spirit was not given until after the resurrection of Christ. Then he was given specifically at the time God chose, and to whom. Those "in Christ" will obtain glory at the rapture when we receive the glorified body.
I would like for my friends the calvs to consider this statement:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
The basis on which God has chosen us according to this verse is "IN Christ". This epistle teaches us what it means to be "IN him". It is to be in the church which is his body and which is being formed in this age beginning in Acts 2. Ep 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. It is the family of God, Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, (That would be those in Christ who have died, in heaven, and those still alive, those on earth)
The church is accepted of God because it is a unity with Christ as the head and the believers as the body and both forming one new man.
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted "IN" the beloved.
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together IN ONE all things IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
So then, we are chosen IN HIM according to the purpose of God.
Westy wrote: Westminster Confession of Faith. Chapter 12. Of Adoption. 1. All those that are justified God vouchsafeth, in and for his only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption;(a) by which they are taken into the number, and enjoy the liberties and privileges of the children of God;(b) have his name put upon them;(c) receive the Spirit of adoption;(d) have access to the throne of grace with boldness;(e) are enabled to cry, Abba, Father;(f) are pitied,(g) protected,(h) provided for,(i) and chastened by him as by a father;(k) yet never cast off,(l) but sealed to the day of redemption,(m) and inherit the promises,(n) as heirs of everlasting salvation.(o)
Most of these points are not even in the context of adoption at all but it is very instructive that the biblical definition for adoption, the redemption of the body, is not even included at all by the westminsters.
Ro 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
One has to wonder why this is not included when it is a plain statement and points were inserted that have nothing to do with adoption, if one were honest?
Lurker wrote: Right here: 9/21/07 8:18 AM "...we are predestinated unto the adoption of children which is a future proposition."
I think your problem is that you can't read. Of all my posts dealing with adoption being a future event for those who are God's children, you still equate adoption as being salvation. If you have no more comprehension abilities than that, and I honestly do not think you have, then I may as well be speaking in tongues to you.
You said "JD wrote: The adoption in Ga 4:4 is future tense. The statement concerning "sons" is present tense. A 2,000 year and counting gap within one verse!!!"
Anyone can read the verse and make a determination if what I said is true. I will help here.
Ga 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (Might do this = future tense)
Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Present tense)
It is clear from the text that the adoption of sons is not the same and equal with the sending the Spirit into their hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
This agrees with Ro 8 and Ep 1.
Adoption is future tense in each passage and it is what the church is predestinated to.
Discerning Believer wrote: Where I differ from those like JD, Yamil etal is that I hold that because of the fall man's complete nature is in total depravity and that in that state the natural man cannot come to God of his own volition and power. Arminians disagree. Man cannot come to Christ until God's grace intercedes and draws him by the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Bible says nowhere nor does it imply that grace draws a person to Christ. How could a gift or unmerited favor draw a man to Christ. DB, this is a silly statement and you have not thought it out.
Grace is not the power of God unto salvation. Grace is the attitude of God that provides salvation to someone he has not previously promised it to and does not deserve it. Salvation is a gift to be received simply because God offers it. It is received from him, not with the hand, but with the heart by faith. It is not bought nor is it previously arranged for.
The word of God, not grace, is the power, or authority, of God unto salvation. I said the Word of God is the power of God unto salvation. It must not be graced by us, it must be believed by us. The gospel is what God desires we believe and Jesus Christ is whom God desires we recieve once we have heard his glorious gospel.
"I've been following this discussion and enjoyed your three part post but have reached a point where I have little interest in participating in a discussion where the opposing party is so entrenched in a faulty system that light can't even be piped to him. Next thing you know JD will be quoting the dictionary for the definition of "nations" completely oblivious to the reality that there is not a "sheep" nation on the face of the planet."
No Lurker, I insist on the "words" in a text being allowed to mean what they say and to say what they mean. Nations does not mean individuals and individuals does not mean nations. The Graet white throne judgment takes place while the earth and the heavens are on fire. The judgement in Mt 25 takes place on the earth 1000 years before that. The nations are the subject of the judgement in Mt 25 but the unrighteous dead are the subjects of the great white throne judgment. They have been resurrected in Re 20 and there is no resurrection in Mt 25. The book of life and the book of works are present in Re 20 but no books are mentioned in Mt 25. Some, in Mt 25, enter into the joy of his rest but all in Re 20 are cast into the Lake of Fire.
You men greatly err. The only thing both passages have in common is the word "throne" and the person of Ch