Isa 44:14 He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it. 15 Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, HE MAKETH A god, and WORSHIPPETH it; he maketh it a GRAVEN IMAGE, and falleth down thereto. 16 He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire: 17 And the residue thereof he MAKETH A god, even HIS GRAVEN IMAGE: he falleth down unto it, and WORSHIPPETH it, and PRAYETH UNTO it, and saith, DELIVER ME; for THOU ART MY god. 18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath SHUT THEIR EYES, that they CANNOT SEE; and their hearts, that THEY CANNOT UNDERSTAND"
All from a piece of wood - or (today) an alabaster statue etc etc.
John UK wrote: You mean the children of believers. Well the Bible does not exclude them, does it? So long as they repent and believe the gospel, otherwise they are no different from other unbelievers. Or! Shock! Horror! You believe in genealogical privilege, like those who said, "We be Abraham's children". Doesn't wash with God, though.
John This problem does not seem to have bothered God when He established the Covenant.
God ordained; "12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed." Gen 17
And "6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise" Romans 9.
I am worried that you Baptists set too much store on the Arminian style - "statement of man authenticates baptism."
John UK wrote: Excuse the bluntness, but I rather tire of WCF fluffers who imagine themselves somehow spiritual giants who can't be wrong on any little jot or tittle like the mode of baptism or the baptising of unbelieving children
John YOU certainly cannot prove your implication, that the WCF is unBiblical. The letters WCF mean Westminster "Confession" of Faith, therefore it does not pretend to be a complete facsimile of Scripture. As for the LBC - as everybody knows it is a copy of the WCF. With the exception of your denominations great need for extra water.
As for your quote, "mode of baptism or the baptising of unbelieving children" unquote, this stems from the unBiblical position of excluding people, by age discrimination, which the Bible does not exclude, namely the children of covenanted parents.
As for Paisley's FPC compromise it does not address the Biblical foundation for both these mode's and interpretations of Scripture and Greek. Whereas other presbyterian churches already baptise adults and babies in the correct Biblical doctrinal method. Paisleys ministers must do a fudge when they come to teach on either method, thus casting doubts where there is no need for them.
NeoFem wrote: a) The National (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland ordains openly gay ministers. This is an apostate church
b) Why is it that only women suffer the unpardonable sin when they lead or preach?
a) Exactly!! AND of course history records that they started using female ministers back in the sixties. So their evil unBiblical decline began by disobedience back then.
b) The "unpardonable sin" is that particular church's disobedience. Today we have a name for it - Liberalism. This is a disease which pollutes churches and nations by removing authority such as God's laws and doctrines, and justice in the courts. The biggest problem we have in authority removal, is the removal of moral standards, which the Liberals have used to allow the abomination of homosexuality to become acceptable.
Thus by removing the Bible you will receive the wrath of God which is described in Romans Chap. 1:18-32. This is what is happening to the Church of Scotland now. The C of E is already in this satanic rut.
The reason why women cannot go into the pulpit is that God does not use them there. It has nothing to do with human ability whether male or female. If the person in the pulpit is not ordained of God then all you will get is human babble.
John UK wrote: I wrote in about this a couple of weeks ago, and the reply I got indicated that the survey section is indeed being slowly phased out. It is a deep sadness bro.
Thanks for that John. Yes indeed if it does go I too will miss it. But we have observed such a decline in Christians (and others) who come on the board to share and debate. Big loss to Christian communication. Listening to sermons is great and an essential part of Church on line. But chat is also an important part of any church too, especially when it is difficult to find people who comprehend where you are coming from. God Bless.
Cezar wrote: Look out Scotland and any country like them.
ALL western countries (including USA) have this evil problem - it is sin pure and simple!
As for "judgment" on Scotland ......
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;"
These SIGNS are already prevalent in western countries therefore the wrath of God is already at work in these nations, including Scotland!
V18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"
Wayne M. wrote: There are many working people who could never afford the high cost of medical care. We know there have been people who lost everything they had trying to pay for medical care. I wouldn't say all people who are not working are lazy either. There are many reasons why people might not have a job. Having a low-paying job, which many people have, does not necessarily ensure you can afford medical care for your family when you and your family are kicked out of the medical plan
As I said Wayne there are lots of ways of tackling the medical problem of those you have designated as the "poor." I am not convinced that all who so choose that class or level of community involvment are financially impoverished through no fault of their own. However as I say there are ways and means. For example creation of industry to give the "poor" the ability to pay. Obama has chosen to be Big Brother by legislative power, much to the consternation of many.
Here in UK the long term effect of this kind of socialist philosophy has simply created more and more bureaucracy and less and less industrial output and revenue. Bureaucracy earns nothing for the country to support the NHS. I might add that socialism does not create equality of service.
Wayne M. wrote: Why are so many christians against helping the poor have access to healthcare in the U.S., while much of the industrialized world already has healthcare for everyone, regardless of ability to pay?
Nobody wants to see the quote "poor" (or are many plain lazy? or without incentive?) condemned in any way whatsoever Wayne. But the real problem behind the Obama Bill, and politics, is socialism and liberalism. There are many ways to assist people to pay for medical help and care, but when Government steps in and plays big brother telling the people how to think and do, then you have real problems. Remember the socialist experiment of the 20th century - USSR and how evil it became, that is socialism taken to the nth degree. Now America is nowhere near that - But a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump gradually. Here in UK we are seeing the "fruits" of socialism in our hospitals (and other institutions). One of the problems is what we call "public sector mentality" which sees people with less than acceptable "interest" in their work, making decisions and making a mess. Our NHS is slowly going over to private sector in many of its facilities, and we observe private care growing in Britain. Big brother is insidious and epidemic!!
"Speaking of once close colleagues who have accused the DUP founder of selling-out by going into Government with Sinn Fein, Dr Paisley says that they are "entitled to their point of view" but argues that he always made clear that there could not be peace until the Government was sustained by those who accepted "that we have to live with one another" rather than murder opponents."
Dr Paisley has been an excellent Christian voice at a time in both politics and public oratory, when it is extremely rare and difficult to do so. May God continue to be with him.
John UK wrote: I wonder if Arthur has joined them yet? There are many continuing churches in the cold country.
Just in case any of you are somewhat confuddled as to why this thread has gone over to "Scotland" and "ammonia" I would like to point out that science confirms that, quote,
"The main source of atmospheric ammonia (NH3) in Scotland is livestock agriculture, which accounts for 85% of emissions. The local magnitude of emissions therefore depends on livestock density, type, and management, with major differences occurring in various parts of Scotland."
I believe you have a problem in the perception of the full effect of iniquity upon the church and the nation. Liberalism is an indicator of deeper problems stretching back to the rejection of the Bible. Having worked in the Kirk some time ago, I have followed their decline with sadness but without surprise!
Guinness wrote: God does take care of HIS church in all providence and mercy. HE does not guarantee that the value of their shares or other investments can never go down. Please also note again what I said below:- "there are so many valid and biblical reasons to criticise apostate liberals subverting the church". What is the 9th commandment?
16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."
"God takes care of HIS Church" is - false witness???
The Church of Scotlands first error was to ditch the Bible, otherwise they wouldn't be in the mess they are in. To accompany the Kirk's mess the nation has followed on in Liberal attitude to God and Scripture. After all why should those outside the church believe in a Book which the so called "church" no longer accepts as the Word and Law of God.
Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Guinness wrote: Do please show us the Bible Believers with a balanced portfolio of investments that have not suffered a proportionate loss in value of their investments. When there are so many valid and biblical reasons to criticise apostate liberals subverting the church why use invalid arguments and arty gas?
God takes care of *HIS* Church in all providence and mercy. If you are asking to compare the True Church with the Liberal heretics then I'm surprised YOU can't see it.......Unless you are.......???
""After swearing on the Bible, Ingham (right) testified that he agreed with the Archbishop of Canterbury that âorthodoxâ should be defined as a willingness to uphold a âlong traditionâ that is âbroad, not narrow.â"
Rowan Williams and his Anglican Liberal confusion wouldn't know "orthodox" Christianity from a duck on heat.
They use words and terms only to excuse and sanitise man, his culture, his sins, his perversions and his abominations.
Isa 3:9 "The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. 11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him."
This is what happens to those who abandon the Bible.
""The credit crunch has led to a crash in the value of Church of Scotland investments by more than ÂŁ89m in the space of one year. Such is the looming financial crisis facing the Kirk that as well as cutting ministers stipends or the number of minsters, it is considering abandoning parishes altogether."" (The Herald)
Or is it that the alternative god mammon isn't quite so understanding???
"the President himself experienced Islam on three continents ........ Given widespread unease and prejudice against Muslims among Americans, especially in the wake of 9/11, the Obama campaign was perhaps understandably very sensitive during the primaries and general election to downplay the candidate's Muslim roots."
Now correct me if I'm wrong but this does not suggest DISHONESTY on the part of the Democrats - or God forbid - on the part of the President??? Does it...
Nuh surely not! Politicians are not devious are they.