Brighton beautiful wrote: Through your fictitious inventions of history and of your false theology of a covenant that could never have been legitimately made you betray a false understanding of the true continuity of the covenants.
You are mistaken Sir, I will simply return your own words, back to you; "Parliaments did not have the power to to bind future Parliaments to membership of the EU and usurp their authority to a foreign power" Parliaments do they have the power to bind future Parliaments against covenant keeping nor usurp the authority of Christ's Mediatorial Reign from Heaven as Creator of all men and Redeemer of His elect whether in Magistracy or Ministry over the consciences of men, contrary to their covenant obligations; or their posterity who take such seriously; in dependence on the Lord Jesus Christ. Men who take the Lord's name in vain may be able to play loose with their fellow men (but not with God) they 'may' in this life escape the necessary consequence (if so, the escape will be in this life only see WCF LC Q&A #111-#114). And as you said: "Wake up and learn the lessons of history." You might like to read the 'Act, Declaration and Testimony of the Reformed Presbytery of 1761' for an accurate account of an historical testi
"Referenda are a betrayal of our constitution and treasonous." Treason against Jesus Christ the ascended Mediator exalted at the Father's right-hand; King of kings and Lord of Lord's? Scotland, England and Ireland as nations together with Parliament, the king, and the people of all ranks entered into a National and Solemn League and Covenant. They entered into a marriage covenant as a nation, engaging themselves to be for Jesus Christ and Him only. There is no higher treason for any nation, church, or individual then to vow and not to pay. But as Joshua the type of Christ said: 'As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.' That means every man, woman and child who claims to be Christ's in their place, calling and station submitting to the Magistrate, as he submits to Christ and protects the true religion of the nation by oath. It is not for those outside of the Magistrate to take up the civil sword. A faithful & true Ministry should have the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. If they do, then it is powerful. Without the preservation of the true gospel the curse brought about by original sin flourishes Gen. 3:14-19.Gospel officers, and ordinances that give way to the idolatry of worshiping the creature, rather than the Creator, are first to give an account to God
You mean Woodrow Wilson was a good pluralist, he was not a true Presbyterian, if so, he could not have sworn a oath contrary to the Scripture, as well as contrary to the true Presbyterian Church which holds a Scriptural form of Church government and is not a denomination. Anyone who understands what Presbyterianism actually means would not so align himself as W. Wilson did.
There is a difference between suffering for righteousness and sin. There are steps of defection by a visible church that takes place over time before what the Scripture refers to in Rev.3 as being a synagog of Satan. This made the separation from Rome necessary in time. Christ alone, as Paul said; was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to the Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all who is above all and through all and in you all... when he ascended up on high he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men... For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. This is stated after Paul had earlier explained the dividing wall of hostility had been removed in Christ between Jew and Gentile. This cannot be just brushed over, as if God spoke something different in the Old Testament; yes something perfected in the New but not a different gospel.
It seems to me that what Michael is asking is not much different then what Mike is asking or really asserting; and is Jim commending. That is because of their view of ecclesiology. I have read of a 17th century reformed pastor/teacher, Robert Baillie who was said to have cast his net wide when dealing with the various sectaries in his work 'Anabaptism, the true fountain of Independency, Antinomy, Brownism, Familisme,and Most of the Other Errors that doe Trouble the Church of England, Unsealed.' Samuel Gellibrand 1647 in his work did charge the Anabaptists with "Antipaedobaptisme, Arminianisme, Arianisme, Familisme, and other wicked errors." I can only speak for myself, but I do not believe that the times have changed so much. These are in essence the same three faceted contentions that took place at that time. A time of Reformation in the British Isles with a slightly new look. Then it was the Papacy+Prelacy+Erastianism vs and the various Anabaptists sects vs the Scottish Church and the Puritans of England, Ireland influenced by both. The Independents have historically wavered between two opinions.
Mike wrote: You say a true church does not require reformation, yet the Reformation was ordained of God. Since the true church does not need reforming, what church then were they trying to reform?
Turning over your question in my mind, just some thoughts regarding it. The only true Church is the one built on the foundational teachings of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. Paul implies not all pastors and teachers will build on that foundation with non perishable application of true doctrine; though some may be saved, their works will be tried by fire. Foundational doctrine is key to recognition of the visible Church. Hebrews 9:10 seems to indicate true reform was accomplished with the coming in time or incarnation of the expected Messiah, the fulfillment of the previous types and shadows.
The Prophetic Scripture of both the Old and New Testaments indicate that there will be a time, of some substantial length, of a great falling away from progressive building with nonperishables. Rev.14 indicates three acts of Divine appointment that will address the back-slidden condition of the visible Church; not confusing the contrast with the invisible members of Christ. The WCF helpfully distinguishes between the two.
Exodus 20:4-6 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in he earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands that love me and keep my commandments."
"Who has command and control over these "National Covenant of Scotland and Solemn League and Covenant documents?"
The God to whom they gave their hand, and the posterity of the true reformed religion who were ever dependent on Jesus Christ as the antitpye of Joshua "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord." The same Joshua that said. "Ye cannot serve the Lord, he is a Holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the Lord, and serve other gods, then he will turn and do you hurt and consume you after that he hath done you good." If these documents are in agreement with God's moral commands as recorded in His Word, they have super-added to themselves an obligation by the religious oath, this was not done in a corner. The Church has been less visible as Mr. Rutherford said and Mr. Renwick testified in the Informatory Vindication for over 300 years. Peden spoke to that as well. The visible sectaries you mention were not in the rank and file after the resolution settlement, they went the way of covenant breakers, though I doubt not some were rescued by Christ that Great Shepherd of the sheep.
WCF LC Q#109 What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment? A. The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and any wise approving any religious worship not instituted by God himself; tolerating a false religion; the making any representation of God, of all or any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever, all worshiping of it or God by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting of the worship of God, adding to it or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent or any other pretense whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering and apposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed. If God's worship had been preserved pure as both the civil and ecclesiastical moral persons of Scotland, England and Ireland had given their hand to God to preserve, we would not be reaping the serious fruit of breaking vows to Almighty God. The National Covenant of Scotland and SLC are still binding.
Feltham8 wrote: This is a strange exposition? Do you still believe this to be true?
Exposition of the Scripture is a job of the ministry. I am not a minister, nor did we have one except for Mr. Calvin's work. Speaking for myself, since the language was not the common vernacular, it took depend effort to hear what God would say. I was basing what I said on recall. I will give an example of what I meant. Eliphaz in chapter 4:7Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off? 8Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. 9By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.
God does uphold the righteous and many times he delivers his saints whose innocence is Christ's imputed righteousness, his shed blood God's propitiated wrath, due their imputed & actual sin. But in every case will they be delivered in this life; though their deliverance is assured eternally? Having been crucified with Christ by faith, their life is hid with God in Him. Psalm 9:3-5 But His secret counsel, or way and time, that I am not privy to. Some wicked men's deeds are discovered and punished in this life, others await the final judgment. see Psalm 73
WCF LC Q#108 What are the duties required in the second commandment? A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in His word; particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ; the reading, preaching, and hearing of the word; the administration and receiving of the sacraments(Baptism and the Lord's Supper); church government and discipline; the ministry and maintenance thereof; religious fasting; swearing by the name of God; and vowing unto Him; as also the disapproving and detesting all false worship, and according to each one's place, and calling, removing it and all monuments of idolatry. Proof texts on request related to space. Omission leads to transgression.
SteveR wrote: Please continue to feel welcome to thoughts discussed
After reading your comment Steve, I was thinking of a time, (years ago now) when gathered with like-minded brethren on the Lord's Day, Calvin's sermons on Job were read to us, by a gifted brother. We did long that God would send us a minister, but for us it seemed necessary we learn to look to Christ alone. The Lord did not leave or forsake us. It was my understanding at that time, that what Job's friends said was true of God but not at all times, in every case and not in Job's case. God is an Infinite God and His ways are past finding out. Deut. 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. What a battle it is at this time, that is not so dissimilar to the Book of Judges, even for a willing spirit, the flesh is weak. God's people need to cry to Him day and night for grace to fight on & for deliverance from the world, the flesh, and the devil. It is not so much the measure of our faith as the substance. If we have the faith of Christ's imputed righteous, we have what is necessary to please God.1Peter 1
Bob Vincent wrote: (You wrote to) Steve, The Book of Judges functions as an Ethical Farce. Every character is deeply flawed, including Deborah, who writes a boastful poem about herself: "The peasantry ceased, they ceased in Israel, until I, Deborah, arose, until I arose, a mother in Israel" (Judges 5:67).
Do you really think that under the inspiration of the Spirit of God it was boasting? I would have thought it was just an acknowledgement that in answer to the cries of God's oppressed people She could state truly God had in a most unusual providence raised up a mother in Israel. Mr. Knox stated "that particular examples do establish no common law. The causes were known to God alone, why he took the spirit of wisdom and force from all men of those ages (a reference to Deborah and Huldah);and did so mightily assist women against nature and against his ordinary course, that the one he made a deliverer to his afflicted people Israel, and the other he gave not only perseverance in the true religion, when the most part of men had declined from the same, but also to her gave the spirit of prophecy, to assure King Josiah of the things which were to come." From Knox's The First Blast of the Trumpet...
In a side block, a history of the violence, that the article itself only eludes to, is informative. Curious solution to the problem? Psalm 46 comes to mind; after considering this along with a discussion, in household this morning concerning the world situation in general. I made the statement we as a nation are being destroyed from within; we are destroying ourselves because as a nation we have no fear of God. Is it not due to the back-sliden state of the Church here. A Church meant to be salt and light not only in this nation, but throughout the whole world, under the gospel?
Mal.3: 15And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered. 16Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. 17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18THEN shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Compare Gen. 2:9 with 1:11-13 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day On the 6th day, Gen 1:29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
My point, God didn't need a seed, He spoke and it was created. There was no man to till the earth until day 6. But this really has nothing to do with your original point which by this time eludes me, because it didn't seem applicable to the discussion when you first tried to use it.
Neil wrote: Ever hear a sermon at your church about how to deal with a heretical or crooked pastor?
Yes, and no. I wouldn't expect to hear such because there is no ecclesiastical court of judicature in the Protestant Church when it gets to that place. With no such courts the Church becomes filled with hypocrites that should belong to the Civil sphere who will hear no one. When there is no unity in the truth that has already been attained unto, you can't even go beyond a first person confrontation, where is their a second that would agree, as touching much of anything, these days. The simplest acts of Church discipline that are meant for the good of the Church and the offender is impossible for it breaks down at step 2 of Matthew 18 in most lawful cases that the Church should hear, related to the apostasy. My opinion, based on doctrine and observation.
btw asked:"RP Who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?"
I'm a 6 day Creationist, so I'd say: No one, Gen.1:12-13
Mr. Yoder thanks for your Scripture proofs. I was deliberating on my statement on the Lord's Day after reading a Sermon of John Welch's on the Final Judgement from Rev. 20. That is when I began to consider your question.
Acts 5:17Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation, 18And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison. 19But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, 20Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
It is my understanding that the Jews had their own ecclesiastical and civil courts and the context would support that. I grant that they did not have the power of the Civil sword for death penalty crimes, that the Roman Empire had but they had their own civil judicature, and power to incarcerate, Yes? That appears magisterial or civil to me.
There is a lot here to consider but few if any will care to do so.
The West has a greater culpability and to whom much is given, much is required. Uganda has suffered for a considerable amount of time. I was burdened for that nation in 1998. Pray for the overthrow of sin and Satan in that nation, that the glorious light of the gospel will break in upon the dominion of darkness there in greater power "that the Lord would bring in the fullness of the Gentiles, furnish the Church with all gospel officers and ordinances, purged from corruption and countenanced and maintained by the civil magistrate Romans 13:1-8; that the ordinances of Christ may be purely dispensed and made effectual for the converting of those who are yet in their sins and the building up of those who are already converted; that Christ would rule in their hearts here and hasten the time of His second coming and our reigning with Him forever, and that he would be pleased to exercise the kingdom of His power in all the world, as may best conduce to these ends." WCF LC Q&A 191 See Psalm 82
Your test does not contradict my statement. Unless you believe that we should submit to the throne of iniquity that has no fellowship with God Psalm 94:20-23 when they frame mischief by law, contrary to God's revealed right and wrong? Should we then call good evil and evil good or agree with and submit to them, when they do? When this is the case they themselves do not qualify for that which Paul speaks of here. The apostles told these same magistrates that when what they commanded of them was contrary to God's commands they must obey God rather then man. I am saying no more then that, but no less.
Presby wrote: J Gresham Machen wrote a powerful book called "Christianity and Liberalism." Others have also warned people against this satanic attack upon the church. For example Liberalism See also = Liberal Christianity Many of the failing denominations eg Anglican, Episcopalian, PC(USA) who have gone over to sodomites in the pulpit are Liberal churches.
I understand the terminology but I stand by my original comment, it is a poor use of the language and it is meant to confuse. With all due respect to your teacher; J Gresham Machen or even our own opinions, the best of men are men at best. I hope you agree that God only in infallible.