"A distinction about calling. There is a two-fold call.
(i.) There is an outward call, which is nothing else but God's blessed tender of grace in the gospel, His parleying with sinners, when He invites them to come in and accept of mercy. Of this our Saviour speaks: " Many are called, but few chosen " (Matt. xx. 16). This external call is insufficient to salvation, yet sufficient to leave men without excuse.
(ii.) There is an inward call, when God wonderfully overpowers the heart, and draws the will to embrace Christ. This is, as Augustine speaks, an EFFECTUAL CALL. God, by the outward call, blows a trumpet in the ear; by the inward call, He opens the heart, as He did the heart of Lydia (Acts xvi. 14). The outward call may bring men to a profession of Christ, the inward call brings them to a possession of Christ. The outward call curbs a sinner, the inward call changes him.
(iii.) We are in a state of impotency. " When we were without strength " (Rom. v. 6). No strength to resist a temptation, or grapple with a corruption; sin cut the lock where our strength lay (Judg. xvi. 20). Nay, there is not only impotency, but obstinacy, " Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost " (Acts vii. 51). Besides indisposition to good, there is opposition. (Thomas Watson)
The problems between Christians and the workers of iniquity has been identified before.
2Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)
But their is a solution ongoing....
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"
"It(Anglicans) is the third-largest group of churches in the world, behind Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians, and is struggling with the same issues facing many denominations: How should Christians interpret what the Bible says about homosexuality, salvation and other issues?"
The only people who are "struggling" with the issue of homosexuality are the tares amongst the wheat, today known as Liberals.
Throughout the Bible, Sodomites are identified as an abomination to God the author of Scripture, there is no struggle for the true Christian to perceive that obvious fact.
As Romans ch.1 illustrates those who have turned from Scripture do also worship the creature rather than the Creator.
True Bible Christians should not participate in this lost and unBiblical witness.
Ro 1:32 "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
Mike wrote: Evenin' Minnow. Unfortunately, there is in the question another long-debated question. When is a sinner regenerated? I'll interpret your question to mean Joe Sinner has the indwelling Holy Spirit. So my answer would be yes, he is saved.
Mike wrote: If we could but admit that the Holy Spirit may work in a sinner's heart for some time before he is convicted, we should also be able to see that this work cannot properly be called regeneration, for being regenerated IS the born-again state of the one who has new life, and is therefore saved.
Hi Mike; Hypothetical question I realise but I think you'll see the point. Joe Sinner receives the Holy Spirit into his heart today, - tomorrow he dies. Is he saved?
Michael Hranek wrote: Preserverance of the Saint is often presented that the "predestinated elect" will hold to a choiceless predestination of all things not that we can believe in Jesus to save us and and having saved us will keep us saved.
Michael I don't mind if you expound the theories of arminian free willism and the Roman Catholic dogma of works based religion.
But please Don't try to post info on the Doctrines of Grace/TULIP since you keep demonstrating your complete ignorance of same.
If you really are interested in them then please read
"However, the Bible stood out by far from other texts with 84 percent of Americans deeming it a holy book."
Is this proffered as great news or desperation in a time of declining Christian influence?
"The study also found that men, conservatives, older Americans, and individuals who had lower income and education levels were more likely than their counterparts to accept the Bible as holy."
Sounds about normal with history.
And then theres... 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Mike wrote: Ken Lynch, whom Cloud quotes in support writes: "Without conviction there can be no conversion. Without repentance, there can be no regeneration." David Cloud writes: "repentance is a change of mind which results in a change of life" Do you believe with Lynch that one must be convicted before conversion, and repentant before regeneration? Do you agree with Cloud's definition of repentance?
Hey Mike Looks like you've hit on a hive of Arminians there.
"In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification."
"Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches."
The Pope is absolutely correct.
From the blind position of RCC heretical dogmas and views, - he wouldn't be able to perceive the True Church, from a duck billed platypus.
Indeed if the Pope could see the True Church he would have been going to the Presbyterian Reformed Church ages ago.
Contender wrote: That is the exact reason why you should not proclaim God loves everybody because there are tares among the wheat. Rather the gospel is to be proclaimed to sinners to come unto Christ.
"....The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
As you can see above Contender the Lord teaches that both grow together - Thus do not exclude any from the whole counsel of God. After all as Bill Bailey said this happens in the church anyway. Whats the difference between the unsaved sinners who go to church and the unsaved who don't?
"Instead of rationalizing and explaining away the evidence of human storytelling in Scripture, Inspiration and Incarnation (his book) begins by urging readers to understand the Bible in the same way they perceive Jesus. "Christ is both God and human," Enns declares in the introduction. "So is the Bible.""
Enns is attacking at the roots of inerrancy.
Trouble with this assumption will be those who are ALL human (unsaved) and receive this notion in that way. If you allow this seed to grow then you will get the same old bloom of free willism promoting works based religions, like the papists.
From the dictionary; Complacent;; "pleased, esp. with oneself or one's merits, advantages, situation, etc., often without awareness of some potential danger or defect; self-satisfied"
"quote" I feel that we may be bouncing off each other to no real avail here. If so I apologise.
My position is that the Holy Spirit is the one who will make all the difference to the converted, not simply the verbal statement of the mortal. Telling somebody about God's love is not going to change the fact, that it is the Spirit's work to have any real effect upon ones heart - or not as the case may be.
Lloyd-Jones makes the point that a sinner must be aware of his depraved situation, - prior to the love of God, or indeed anything in the Bible, having a converting effect. I agree with this too.
quote wrote: 1] Are you insinuating that I am a hyper? Is that why you are so hostile?
2] Who suggested that?
1] You posed the question below, "In evangelizing should it also be told to everyone that Christ died for them?" After being negative about sharing God's love - I assumed you didn't want to share this either.
2] In your post below 7/7/08 5:00pm "Why do you want to make a sinner complacent in his sin by telling them that God loves them" _____________ Finally quote, I am debating from my position which you obviously dont accept, - but still only debating. Not hostility.
_____________ Answer to yours below on evangelising Christ Crucified. As I have already posted below God demonstrrates His love by sending His Son to die on the cross.
I don't hold back any of the Bible teachings. One assumes that this is why GOD Himself recorded them in a Book for all to read. Then theres the Holy Spirit and His guiding influence.