Frank wrote: As most of you know, I donâ€™t believe that a â€śpracticingâ€ť Christian can occupy an executive level political office and I would probably extend that to any political office.
Frank We will not begin to have enough space for all the discussion this can generate.
My starting reference point is this: All things were created by Him and for Him _ that would include offices in government
Second "serving" is not the same as popularity with the enemies of God through corruption and compromise
Third those who "serve" (btw we have a great Declaration of Independence (a side bar here imho it would be good to post the part about God given unalienable rights in our churches, another story I would have to explain) and Constitution these founding documents are good for both Christains and non-Christians, our country is in serious problems because we've gotten away from them, because we have devilish people in government that abuse them and pervert them
IMHO a believer who undoubtedly would need extrodinary wisdom that only God can give could be elected in serving well
ladybug wrote: Dolores, It is good to see you back. May the Lord continue to refine, grow and unite His people. Helps, what a blessing to read your posts - may the Lord be glorified and praised! This may not be exactly on topic, but I wanted to share this video with all, it's so touching, heart-breaking and true. It will bless you - http://youtu.be/L7owD7vErJw
Ladybug Thank you for sharing No Man Cares For My Soul Honestly it is convicting, and an area I know I want to grow in, and to be much in prayer and seeking the Lord in and for and will share with brothers and sisters I believe are like minded Thank you
Helps wrote: I have heard it said by some that the Lord does not answer the prayers of the wicked. I have always found it difficult to believe this since the Lord heard and answered me on numerous occasions when I was still unconverted. Dear old Spurgeon used to ask if the Lord hears the cry of the young ravens to feed them (Ps. 147:9) why should he not hear the cries of those who are yet unconverted?
Helps UK I greatly appreciate reading your post It touches on something I have been considering for years Thanks Again
SteveR wrote: You should rather because it violates Scripture. They crossed upon DRY land Nehemiah 9:11 And thou didst divide the sea before them, so that they went through the midst of the sea on the dry land; and their persecutors thou threwest into the deeps, as a stone into the mighty waters.
Interesting reply To which I would plead with you The Gospel God Himself gives us in the Bible is NOT the same as what is being taught by the RCC
editting Hint: Mariolotry, which is "key" in Roman Catholicism seriously violates the word of God
People can know this for themselves if they honestly humbly in the fear of God lay side by side what the Bible actually says and compare it with the offical teaachings and Traditions of the RCC
2nd editting Christopher000 Hang in there my brother, I trust that you are not in any on a path to a sell out of the Lord Jesus Christ, the LORD will perfect in His time and in His sovereignty all and everything that concerns you, keep seeking Him, let Him fill you (me too) with the revelation of who He is, His Power, His Glory and the knoweledge of His will for us that we might by His grace do it
And again I appreciate your faith and your humble honestly, keep at it my brother
Christopher000 wrote: Personally, I don't see a big problem with the red sea being parted as the result of an earthquake/sunami type thing because I think God works primarily through nature.
Christopher000 I appreciate your post and how in my words here, that you honestly wrestle with the truth and facts in a matter
I trust in the grace of God and in time and working through these issues and matters that your real consideration of the truth will bear much good fruit in your walk with Christ
Personally I see an enormous problem with the Red Sea being parted by an earthquake Because such an honest consideration of God being able to use nature (and He does) preys upon people to seduce us to forget, minimize, neglect, turn away from or abandon God has told us the truth of the matter, especially with the world demanding peace not conflict with those who disagree as a wretched temptation to compromise the word of God to get along with those who are actually enemies of God, who hate His word, and abuse it for their own ends
At its heart such lie is the utterly blasphemous sin of idolatry, a sin of those who hate God as He really is, packaged as it is in the disquise of 'how it may have happened' (it didn't happen that way)
John Yurich USA wrote: If Graham preaches that salvation comes only through embracing Jesus as Savior and trusting in Him alone for salvation then Graham is saved.
JY Aren't you really talking about yourself? If you have genuinely embraced (received) Jesus Christ as Lord, in repentance _ a thorough committed change of loyalties and affections for yourself, your pleasures, even your cherished religion of preference to be obedient to Christ, entrusting in Him alone to save you from your sins
His salvation, His saving you from your sins will show in your life _ IF THAT ISN'T THERE you are still unsaved no matter how much you think you are
... it would be like someone sincerely going to Benny Hinn to be healed of cancer, going forward to have Benny Hinn slay you in the spirit, being hit with somekind of great emotional power, and even falling down, walking out claiming your healing, 'Confessing it' and Confessing it and Confessing you are healed even while the cancer is still there and killing you, refusing to go to a cancer doctor because you know they will cut it out of you and you just don't want that because you would have to admit going to Benny's undenominational church and believing his nonsense was wrong and did not work
Helps wrote: I had heard of what others who had abandoned their family faith had suffered and had no idea what I would face.
Helps Thank you so much for including this important part of your testimony.
It has reminded me a bit of my own, especially since SteveR made his, in my words, pro-ecumenical comment
I grew up in a devout RC family, who were troubled that I developed a real hostility against anything to do with God or anyone professing to be a Christian, so bad my older brother essentially begged his pentecostal friends to pray for me _ I was save May 10, 1980 in Knoxville, TN
In my early days my brother was thrilled that I had found God and believed in Jesus Christ, but that didn't last because as I grew over the years in knowledge of the Truth of what the Bible says it exposed the RCC as false and I walked away from both the RCC and the ecumenical movement _ my older brother who had been so concerned for me was now enraged
That reminds me of SteveR big time. Imho he would be happy with us if we were just ecumenical but absolutely hates facing the reality that a testimony of a religous conversion to the RCC is NOT the same as the Testimony of a real genuine born again conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ
John Yurich USA wrote: That really is sick stating that Graham who is an ordained Baptist minister doesn't believe that salvation comes only through trusting in Jesus alone for salvation. Graham preaches that salvation comes only through trusting in Jesus alone for salvation.
John Y Think about it as this "Salvation", this abuse of the grace of God, to promote a "Salvation" where 'a person did not have to believe or even know the name of Jesus Christ to be saved' is so appealing to men who want to go to heaven when they die But rebel against and refuse to obey God while they live here on earth
This clip on YouTube will let you watch what Billy Graham said in his own words If you watch closely Billy Graham expresses the opinion that you didn't even need to go forward and say a sinner's prayer at your brother's non-denominational church
Frank wrote: Well Michael, I understood completely the argument you are making and I don't think you avoided anything. There is a nuance to your position and I would disagree with it, but I know you are forthright in your comments. Hang in there and I hope you get a good nights sleep.
Thanks Frank I hope you understand I was only beginning with total deliberate depravity
my next conviction would not be the "Unconditional Election" of some who believe God arbitarily regenerates whoever He chooses (God is righteous to choose whoever He chooses to save) before and independent of repentance and faith but what I will call "Sovereign Election" where in He brings those He chooses to repentance, to faith and to regeneration (new birth) _ those who are indeed saved with have testimony of what happened.
Paul had Testimony, Cornelius has Testimony, I believe it is safe to say the 5000 on the day of Pentecost had testimony and we could of course go on
BTW I have never heard a Testimony of anyone: Waking up "born again" (regenerated/saved from sin) with no revelation of God, no repentance and no faith personally place in Christ involved, who then went out to live for Jesus Christ whom they didn't know, hadn't met and had even been called by
ladybug wrote: Michael, Man's inability to choose Christ apart from Divine intervention looks nothing like your example.
Ladybug As respectfully and gently as I might: Yes! It was a ridiculous little story, who in their right mind would ever begin a marriage that way? But still that is way some calling themselves communicate their ideas of salvation to me, so if you have a problem with what I wrote maybe you ought to check closely how some on the Calvinistic side are coming across
Lurker wrote: Did Paul have the choice to accept or reject Christ's call on Damascus Road?
Lurker Let me ask you a question, if you don't mind. "Was Paul a robot or not a robot?" If we was a robot what choice did he have, if he wasn't a robot what kind of work did God have to sovereignly do in his life to bring him to make the right choice?
James Thomas wrote: So what is the deciding factor of why one chooses and one doesn't?
A story of two honeymoon mornings 1) the total inability:
Bride: Yikes, who are you what am I doing here? Groom: I know you would never choosen me out of all the men on earth so I had to take you as my bride without you having anything to do with it Bride: Hello, 911, Help!
2) Deliberate Depravity
Bride: (looking with love, amazement and wonder) I can hardly believe you chose me, out of all the women on earth, and asked me to marry you, I will remember to the day I die how you won my heart, I will love you as long as I live Groom: (just smiles and rejoices in His precious treasure, and tells her over and over again how much He loves her _ and how happy He is that she said, "Yes!")
James Thomas wrote: So what is the deciding factor of why one chooses and one doesn't? The CAUSE....not the effect. Here are some options... 1.The modern day Pharisee would argue for their works of the law. 2.The RCC would argue for their works in the sacraments. 3.Some Christians would say their decision. They chose correctly. 4. Some believe Election.
James Thomas I am likely to have a different prespective on "Sovereign Election" than coming out of the camp of Dordt and Geneva
It is this:
It is a Sovereign work of God, only He can and must do, to save sinners, to bring a lost man (or woman) to conviction of their sin, repentance and saving faith in Jesus Christ _ from the best of what I can read and understand Yes! God is indeed completely sovereign in Election (His saving work) and yet He does not do this by somekind of 'magic' He does it by granting, giving, bringing about the Repentance He commands and the Saving Faith He requires in His work of new birth/regeneration in those He saves.
BTW imho those genuinely saved by God and for God will have Testimony of His saving work, even if he might not know exactly how to express it, they will still know God has done it
didactics wrote: There is 'no' - 'zero' ability in sinners to come to Christ - THAT is why GOD MUST draw them. 1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Born again believers with the indwelling Holy Spirit can come - Natural carnal man cannot and will not. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED CAN BE.
Ah Didactics, if someone is a born again believer with the indwelling Holy Spirit haven't they already come to Jesus? Why then would they need to be drawn to Him for something they already have?
Edit BTW I would not expect an unregenerate man to understand the convicting work of the Holy Spirit or have testimony of it either
"8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1John 1:8/10
Dear Didactics Perhaps if I put it in different words I am NOT arguing that men have no sin I am NOT arguing that men can save themselves I am NOT arguing men left to themselves have any desire to be saved from their sins
What I am arguing against is "hyper-inability" where to some lost people are unable to respond (cannot choose to come to Christ) to the preaching of the word of God and the convicting work of the Holy Spirit
It is as if they erase: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ..." John 6:44
Read that carefully, apparently Jesus acknowledges (1) the real Biblical depravity of man (2) the real Biblical ability of men, in this case, 'drawn by the Father' to indeed come to Him
And also "Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me" John 6:45
These two verse wonderfully interrelate to Romans 10:13-15 in the context of the whole Chapter and the entire Book of Romans
Biblical facts again wrote: And there are lots and lots more Michael which confirm that man CANNOT CANNOT discern spiritually the means of grace unto salvation.
BFA Really? Please understand I am NOT arguing in the least againt the fallen sinful Depravity of Men, that men (women too) are born completely and thoroughly sinners with a nature in enmity against God. Did you understand that? Or do you object that this is a knowing deliberate depravity because if men (women too) can recognize they are sinners in enmity against God, then in the sovereign grace of God He can make them appreciate/understand be convicted of the atoning reconciling sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ for them
You all ever read: Acts 2:32 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Think long, hard, honestly and humbly about this. If they were in a state of total inability, nothing Peter preached would have 'pricked their hearts'
Before you get all upset with me read the next part and tell me again how men hearing the preaching of the gospel, under the convicting work of the Holy Spirit are still totally unable to respond to God, REPENT. I don't think
Lurker wrote: How can we say we love and honor God in one breath then take His testimony out of context, turn it upside down in objection to a doctrine, in the next breath?
Lurker Isn't the exactly what the hyper-Calvinists, the hyper-Predestinationalist do?
If you check closely I am not in any way arguing against "Total Depravity" BUT I am arguing for: "Let God Himself Define in the context of Scripture what that means" not Dordt, not Calvin, and not even you or myself either to abusively redefine total depravity into somekind of mystical inabliltiy (there is indeed a real inablility but it is something quite different from sinners having no ability whatsoever to respond even to the Sovereign Convicting work of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God)
Remember I am just a simple minded Baptist who dares believe God says what He means and means what He says, a literal approach to Scripture where Scripture is literal and of course figurative where figurative
I simply do not have nor want in the least the "intelligence" to explain it all away (allegorically) to fit any theoretical theological system of choice nor religous popularity
All this respectfully of course as you are entitled to believe whatever you choose to
ladybug wrote: Michael, If man has the ability to choose
Ladybug This is a very deep and far reaching subject, and a discussion on:
"Total Deliberate Depravity" is only in a figure of speach the tiniest tip of the iceberg
So if I may let me suffice it to say this, if men (women too) actually have the ability to choose (PLEASE UNDERSTAND, apart from God's Grace they WILL NOT CHOOSE to Repent, to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved from their sins) still if the worst, the most seemingly impossible of any sinner we know has a genuine God given ability to choose this imho wonderfully liberates us in our theology and devotion to Jesus Christ, from everything is already so hopelessly predestinated (hyper-predestinationalism) there is no reason to pray, to witness, to labor, as if our labors might actually see God accomplish/CHANGE in our lives things beyond anything we might think or imagine BECAUSE He is able to, and to be "soul winners" for Him that He can use and send into His harvest
I know, I know I sometimes tend to look outside the box of contemporary Calvinism and by the grace of God notice or consider things like:
Grace is NOT opposed to effort, Grace out to motivate great effort expecting God to make good His Promise