Frank wrote: Thanks Michael. My only "possible" difference would be I would never think I could alter God's sovereignty or predestination to the extent that the elect won't come.
I canâ€™t even imagine someone being in hell because I didnâ€™t do something.
Frank Imho we ought to look again at/into God's Sovereignty and realize He places us in circumstance were ....
Ezek 33 33 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: 3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; 4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. 6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Frank wrote: I truly donâ€™t understand the semantics of this argument, but I am trying
Brother Frank It boils down to what is the Gospel and what isn't
Do we preach Jesus Christ to others, or presume we are excused from doing anything (an abuse of God's Sovereignty and Predestinating)
Please note in this we are to test the spirits to see whether they are from God or not. So are we encouraged in the obedience of faith, personal Bible Study, Prayer, Seeking the Lord, Witnessing to the Lost or not? Imho the Holy Spirit will always lead, encourage, teach us in such things, a very different spirit that is not from God (only pretends to) will see to discourage, sabotage and malign us from such thing, and note this often "proof texting" Scripture and referencing religous scholars and their writing to push their agenda
I hope you understand in doing this they disquise and camoflage themselves as the real thing (sometimes the real Jews/Israel) coming as close to the Truth as they can without having to actually come into a real full of godly sorrow for their own sins, obedience to the word of God
John UK wrote: I tell you what, Moniker Man, have a read of one of my heroes of the faith, whose doctrine adorns the New Testament.
Beloved Persecuted Brother Saint John
Wow! Does all this remind me of the harassment/persecution the Apostle Paul experienced at the hands of those of (is it safe to say) the synagoge of Satan They thought they knew the way to God, didn't they
Didn't they follow Paul around seeking to destroy both him and the Gospel of Jesus Christ that Paul by the Holy Ghost was preaching
And still Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves!
Reminds me also of the hatred Jesus stirred up in one of the people He healed in the Synagoge
Hey! Moniker Man! What happened to the Pharisees that hated Jesus? What ever happened to the Jews (ever claim to be a true Jew?) who hated Paul, for preaching the Gospel?
And what do you think will happen to you?
I don't know about you but I'd far rather have the Blood of Jesus Christ speaking to God for mercy in my life, than have the Blood of Jesus Christ against me before the throne of God
Know this well God is good and ready to forgive and abounds in mercy to all who call upon Him. So call upon Him for His mercy while you may, for today is the day of Salvation
John UK wrote: Brother Saint Michael, you are working on
Brohter Saint John UK Wales Thank you again for the enouragement of your faith (which of course Christ has authored and will perfect in His own)
Wow! I guess we have hit a nerve with another one of of the Goosebumps of Dordt Crowd (maybe it is just yet a different moniker)
Again the Question: Are the elect (who in their lost state are thoroughly deliberately depraved sinners, with no natural desire for God), those who are by God predestinated (an enormously dangerous word to use wrongly) are they winnable to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?
And does God will to use us in the winning?
If they are winnable to faith in Jesus Christ AND if God indeed wills to use us in Christ in the winning, let's go and spend our lives in winning them to Him
COMEDY Unregenerate Calvinists don't understand such things
Imho if you were anywhere as wise as you attempt to portray yourself you would know Calvinists such as Spurgeon and Whitefield spent their lives in being used by God in winning lost sinners to faith in His Son Jesus Christ
NOT a do nothing modern day Dordt type of Calvinism that will shut off the kingdom of heaven from men, like it appears to have done for you
John UK wrote: Amen Saint Michael! An onlooker at our prayer meetings ought to be able to ask the question, "Are you Quakers?" I'm working on it, bro. And I do thank you for your encouragements towards a return to biblical and experiential Christian reality of faith, which has the effect of radically changing our thinking concerning what we need to be doing with the lives God has given us. 2 Corinthians 5:15 GNB (15) He died for all, so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but only for him who died and was raised to life for their sake.
Brother Saint John I editted/shortened my previous post because I felt I had simply not given justice to the enormonity of all God is and how that utterly changes us who know Him, really know Him experientially
I trust you understand it will be something I will be doing much seeking the LORD about, both for myself and for others too on an ongoing basis for the rest of my life on earth
Here is a link to a video (to be watched with the red pen principle) that nevertheless illustrates God is SO VERY MUCH Bigger than how He is portrayed in a typical modern day church
John UK wrote: But let me say this, as it may benefit some who read these exchanges
and who were born again of the Spirit ...... have all experienced spiritually the five points known as TULIP, even if they never believed it and even spoke against it
Brother Saint John UK Wales I would have to say, "Yes, indeed God's "tulip," NOT a wilted, man-centered perversion of it."
Question: Are the elect (who in their lost state are totally deliberately depraved sinners, with no natural desire for God), those who are by God predestinated (a word we ought to treat fearfully more than the enormous care of those handling thermonuclear weapons) are they winnable to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? And does God will to use us in the winning?
If they are winnable to faith in Jesus Christ AND if God indeed wills to use us in the winning In Christ, let's go and spend our lives in the winning of them to faith in Jesus Christ!
And when they are saved, let's baptize them by immersion!
BUT if they are NOT winnable, and if God does NOT will to use us in winning them to Christ, let's go become hypermen and throw away real experiential saving faith in Jesus Christ to convert them to the modern day "do nothing goosebumps of Dordt"
Brother Saint John UK Thank you for your encouraging post He who has the Son has life!
Earlier you mentioned, "Here we go again. Salvation by goosebumps" which if we really dig into the things being stated is at the heart of the matter
Let me again point to the heartbreaking reality of those with no experiential faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in the new birth must needs be come up with a perversion of the gospel whereby one needs to do nothing and must do nothing but believe the 5 points of Dordt
And again they cannot stand the Truth of Scripture by itself alone, and point people to it, but must needs always redirect people to their "ultra enlighted Presbyterianism or something"
Spurgeon and Whitefield were not this way, they could and did, what believers can in good conscience do today, point people NOT to Dordt but to the Lord Jesus Christ
And Yes! Perhaps even with the urgency of telling them. Pray! Seek God! Read your Bible seeking to hear what God says to you. Until either you die or He saves you.
Something I do not believe unregenerate Calvinists understand, and worse perhaps have hardened their hearts so against God they no longer will ever want to understand
B. N. Dalton As respectfully as I might, Imho you sincerely think you know and are right in what is genuine true Christianity
BUT you seem to be jumping in with an agenda to promote somekind of "Calvinism" adding in things that are not being said at all in the conversation, and perhaps forgetting some foundational Biblical Truths (Doctrines) that apply.
For instance Question: If a person reads the Bible for themself what are they reading?
The words of mere men? The words of mere who have merely had a supernatural experience and are giving their report of it?
How about the very word of the Living God, who has sovereignly placed His word before them in their life?
Honestly the last answer kind of throws things into a much clearer picture of what is going on when a lost man or woman begins to read the Bible for themself
BTW Have you ever really humbly honestly read the Bible that way for yourself? or have you only allowed approved religous scholars to tell you what it says and means? (That would be quite dangerous)
B. N. Dalton wrote: I am surprised at you Frank. There is a difference between witnessing to someone on what the Bible says - And saying that a person is saved by the human activity of reading the Bible.
B. N. Dalton For the record you might want to pay very close attention to what I actually say
First I believe in Election, the Sovereignty of God in Salvation
Second I do NOT BELIEVE God divorces Election and His Sovereignty in Saving sinners from His Word, from Repentance, from personal faith put in His Son Jesus Christ
Third Imho some have placed their faith (without repentance or any kind of godly sorrow for their sin) in a system of theology NOT in Jesus Christ, and are still sinners, still unregenerate, still needing to flee (to God to forgive them) from the wrath to come
It is my opinion they have substituted a belief (I hope you realize Satan can give men very real supernatural experiences which are still thoroughly counterfeit revelations; thnk Joseph Smith and Mohammed) in somekind of modern day 5 Point Doctrines of Dordt, deceiving them into imagining "this 5 pts of Dordt is the only true Christianity (similar to the attitude of some RCs)
A real humble honest reading of Scripture and learning from the Holy Ghost will disabuse the child of God of what is amiss in the so called hyper-Calvinism of some, to be much more like a Spurgeon or Whitefield in their faith and love for the lost
SteveR Why thank you for reminding me of somethings I left out, as an example, the slander, false witness and false accusations of the ungodly from:
It might be significant to note SteveR and other "Jesuit Trolls" (humor here) unregenerate pretenders, never point people the word of God, to humbly honestly in the fear of the LORD to read it for themselves, but inevitably to ...
It is a wonderful blessing when the enemies of God's word remind you of how totally depraved sinners can be, especially the religious ones in love with the blasphemous idolatrous false religion of Roman Catholicism, that bewitches and preys upon sincere Catholic people and seeks to have dominion over all religions and denominations too
I am considering here, the distinct possibility that Satan has his choice servants (deceived into thinking they are doing service to God)
Who tickle the ears of people with a "genuine false" conversion experience, in order that keep them away from the Truth of Scripture that sets free indeed, those genuince saved by God and for God, who abide in the words of Christ
It might be significant to note SteveR and other "Jesuit Trolls" (humor here) unregenerate pretenders, never point people to the word of God, to humbly honestly in the fear of the LORD to read it for themselves, but inevitably to somekind of spin, ear tickling eisegesis or allegory of it.
If anyone with a "genuine false" conversion experience gets honestly and humbly into the Bible for themselves, seeking the LORD with all their heart, it is IMHO God is wonderfully willing and mighty to save them whereby thier calling and election will be very much sure, and with great assurance in the Holy Ghost
BRF wrote: Showing that false worship can not be disguised as true worship is not wicked, but your use of such pejorative words shows
nb And just why would you seek to make a distinction between liberals and homosexuals?
Haven't the liberal denominations been infamous for promoting homosexuality in apostate churches?
If you don't think liberalism or homosexuality affects you especially if you are innocent of such sins, fine you are entitled to your opinion. Maybe Lot thought it didn't affect him, his friends, his family either
nb Sorry but you need to reread my post again as both liberalism and its kissing cousing the homosexuality spoken of in the news article bring consequences into our lives, and those we love and care about even if we think we are immune from their influence and consequences and stick our heads into the sand thinking we're are safe hiding from it
nb wrote: You need to read Rudlington's post again. Try reading from the word "Liberalism"
Lurker That is a wonderful sentiment. One I can in good conscience say"
Amen! and Amen! to
Makes me wonder how, would heartless be the correct word, anyone could ever be to towards this man who wants to go to heaven when he dies, and puts a stumbling block to that in his path. But isn't the eternal punishment of hell the only place those who only pretend to know God, who pretend to be born again and have eternal life, when they refuse to believe Him and refuse obey Him, will go when they die?
Lurker wrote: I hope we've heard the last of John Y.'s empty words about Catholics worshipping Jesus as God.
Frank wrote: Perhaps a little of topic, but just think if we hadn't murdered 50 million babies who would have also had offspring, then these immigrations wouldn't have been necessary for any reason they could come up with. Now more on topic. Our constitution or other documents have no religious or moral litmus tests for its citizens so in theory our country is open to all those who want to come here. And just think, these Muslims can hear the gospel and then when they go back to their countries of origin, they can take it back there. The Lord works in mysterious ways and perhaps this is one of them.
Not off topic We (USA) murders over 60,000,000 innocent preborn babies, while Americans stand around doing essentially nothing
So why should it surprise us if God allows/sends some zealous Muslims so we will reap what we've sown (and btw in the course of things, even bring some of these very same Muslims to Salvation and great appreciation to Jehovah for His mercy and grace in their lives, again largely no thanks to us)
Do you think perhaps these "shhh" pastors are part of the, let me use the words, "devilish problems" we are having in our modern day churches?
Let me say it this way Imho if we cannot or refuse to see that Roman Catholics are no more genuine Christians than devout members of the LDS (whose worship a false jesus, a lie who is the spirit brother of Lucifer)
If we cannot get it right on who God is, who Jesus Christ really is, and the Holiness and all that God rightfully excepts (and what He will refuse as well, even to what He will condemn to hell forever) in the lives of those who profess to know and belong to Him
We will never get it right on issues of human sexuality, the precious treasure of marrital relations belonging exclusively to a man and his (female) wife
Imho the answer of why, can be involved but at its heart are you faithful to believe in and love Jesus Christ or not
Christopher000 wrote: Thanks Michael. You know, I have had pastors, after service, go, "shhh" to me and pull me to the side when attempting to ask questions about the Roman church, specific doctrine, etc. I got the impression that they thought it would offend should anyone hear me which I thought was odd.
Christopher000 I tend to think you are right, they are not aware, they've just been born or married into Catholic family and go along with the crowd to get along
Let me suggest a different tack (if that is the correct sailing term) instead of concentrating (I am not saying neglecting) education RC people what the RCC actually teaches etc. Perhaps far more we ought to be educating the "evangelical community" as to both what the Bible, the Word of God teaches and contrasting that with what the RCC (LDS too) teaches so that Evangelicals might part company with the RCC and instead becomes missionaries to them, heartbroken over how lost, deceived they are in their false beliefs and idolatry
Think about two of our most famous posters here on SermonAudio they both delight in a false untiy with Roman Catholicism and would likely be troubled and hopefully for the right reasons if they witnessed an exodus of Evangelicals from any partnership with Cahtolics and serious efforts being made to see Catholics (LDS too) converted to a real obedience to the Gospel, real holiness to Jesus Christ as He really is
Christopher000 wrote: ...by the way, I believe that the majority of Roman Catholics are not even aware of many of the churches doctrines, dogmas, etc.