Brother Saint John UK Wales Imho a most beautiful sentiment for the child of God, The Doctrine of Total Abandonment
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BYT_4VcoOc We Have Come Into His House
John UK wrote: But it is the most sensible thing in the world, to receive God's words, to hearken to them, to do what God says to do, to be totally submissive to God, and spend time thinking about the Doctrine of Total Abandonment, and then abandon themselves totally to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, lest he say to them, "Why call ye me Lord, Lord, and never do what I say for you to do."
John UK wrote: You should read Mr Spurgeon more closely
Brother Saint John UK Wales In considering what you said, let me make a comment
Imho I DO NOT BELIEVE C.H Spurgeon nor others like him, would be opposed to the experiential knowing of God in the faith God Himself gives us
Imho this "experiential faith" lies at the heart of the animosity being expressed by "goosebump Calvinism." Unregenerate Calvinists no matter how sincere and scholarly they are, even to having somekind of supernatural mystical revelation their 5 points mean they must be one of the elect (Joseph Smith, Mohammed and RC Mystics also had they demonic counterfeit revelations - AND FAILED TO TEST THE SPIRITS), all of it fails to bring them into an intimate knowing experiential faith, and brings them to hate those who do have this kind of genuine God given faith. So they attack it over and over again, unable to have peace because they really don't know God, only deceiving themselves, like the Pharisees of old, they alone have THE WAY to God
If you want to coin a word to describe where I am at in my (God given btw) faith right now call it "Living Theism" for want of a better discription at this time
Almighty God is ALIVE, right now today. It is safe to say that all Jesus began to do and to teach in His own fleshly humanity, He continues to do today (teach and do) in the lives of redeemed sinners now made saints, born again, indwelt and sealed by the Spirit of the Living God
Now today, our faithfulness to His, God's will and commandments affect not only our own lives but those around us. There are serious consequences when watchmen do not warn of danger, when the people of God continue on in easy, comfort and religious entertainment instead of praying, fervently praying and going to witness of Christ to the Lost
It is a serious abuse of predestination to excuse oneself from faithful obedience to Christ. Does it nullify God's sovereignty? NO! Will it be frightful to discover God in His sovereignty was testing us to see if we would love Him and obey Him or not? Doesn't He Sovereingly use our obedience/disobedience, for good/bad?
Frank wrote: What you seem to be espousing is a concept called open theism
Absolutely my brother Straight is the gate and narrow (difficult) is the way that leads to life it so involves denying ourselves taking up our crosses DAILY loving Jesus Christ more than our closest and most precious and intimate friends, family, children or even our spouse
Something we can only walk in by the mercy and grace of God His good, acceptable and perfect will for us in Christ AND a real filling of the Holy Ghost whereby the word of Christ richly dwells within us
Fools despise what it means and costs to truly belong entirely to Jesus Christ as His Disciple, hating the Truth that those who are NOT His Disciples , are NOT His sheep, who hear His voice and lovingly follow Him, do NOT Genuienly know Him in the new Birth are still unregenerate no matter how religous they are, no matter how great their excuses for their unrepent unbelief and continual defiling disobedience
Abraham told the rich man in hades: 'they have Moses and the Prophets, let them listen to them because if they don't listen to them, they will not even be persauded if one rises from the dead'
JDIG Upstate NY If I might ask, what area of upstate NY are you in?
Anyway, in or with the right motives and especially a committed perseverance, I tend to disagree with you about it mattering if this passes, as people can be greatly encouraged to standing up against, or taking godly action, such as fervent intercessory prayer, by an open public godly opposition to the evil things in our country such as homosexuality in our country
Godly being a key word in this
Godliness means responding to Godâ€™s revelation; in trust and obedience, faith and worship; prayer and praise, submission and service. Life must be seen and lived in the light of Godâ€™s word. - a statement at a recent pasotr/leaders conference in Johnson City, NY only 1.1 miles from the local Mosque go figure
JDIG wrote: Dos not really matter if it makes it through or not, even if it got voted through, judges would over turn it ( prop 8 ). People don't rule any more, judges do.
John UK wrote: But the point I was making, and which the Apostle was making, is that a godly lifestyle can WIN someone to Christ. It's plain as pie to me, as that is what the text is saying
Brother Saint John UK Wales There is much on my heart and my mind in all of this and other interrelate matters today.
And it is a great encouragement God does not leave us, His children helpless to the cruel mercies of the devil and ungodly men and women either, and let's include false prophets, false teachers and false Christians in the mix of all this. Yes! We may go through times of great pain and distress
Paul wrote much to encourage us in the living of our faith, in loving others, even those who hate us, he knew first had the worst (chief) of sinners could be saved and at the same time the heartache some in their unbelief and rebellion against God never will be
See 1 Timothy 4:13-16 " ......... for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."
God is soevereign in those who hear us, may we thank Him joyfully for everyone He in His Providence brings to do so, always remembering the most hateful unbelief of anyone will never nullify the faithfulness of God to meke His word good for those who do hear, who do believe
Frank wrote: Thanks Michael. My only "possible" difference would be I would never think I could alter God's sovereignty or predestination to the extent that the elect won't come.
I canâ€™t even imagine someone being in hell because I didnâ€™t do something.
Frank Imho we ought to look again at/into God's Sovereignty and realize He places us in circumstance were ....
Ezek 33 33 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: 3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; 4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. 6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Frank wrote: I truly donâ€™t understand the semantics of this argument, but I am trying
Brother Frank It boils down to what is the Gospel and what isn't
Do we preach Jesus Christ to others, or presume we are excused from doing anything (an abuse of God's Sovereignty and Predestinating)
Please note in this we are to test the spirits to see whether they are from God or not. So are we encouraged in the obedience of faith, personal Bible Study, Prayer, Seeking the Lord, Witnessing to the Lost or not? Imho the Holy Spirit will always lead, encourage, teach us in such things, a very different spirit that is not from God (only pretends to) will see to discourage, sabotage and malign us from such thing, and note this often "proof texting" Scripture and referencing religous scholars and their writing to push their agenda
I hope you understand in doing this they disquise and camoflage themselves as the real thing (sometimes the real Jews/Israel) coming as close to the Truth as they can without having to actually come into a real full of godly sorrow for their own sins, obedience to the word of God
John UK wrote: I tell you what, Moniker Man, have a read of one of my heroes of the faith, whose doctrine adorns the New Testament.
Beloved Persecuted Brother Saint John
Wow! Does all this remind me of the harassment/persecution the Apostle Paul experienced at the hands of those of (is it safe to say) the synagoge of Satan They thought they knew the way to God, didn't they
Didn't they follow Paul around seeking to destroy both him and the Gospel of Jesus Christ that Paul by the Holy Ghost was preaching
And still Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves!
Reminds me also of the hatred Jesus stirred up in one of the people He healed in the Synagoge
Hey! Moniker Man! What happened to the Pharisees that hated Jesus? What ever happened to the Jews (ever claim to be a true Jew?) who hated Paul, for preaching the Gospel?
And what do you think will happen to you?
I don't know about you but I'd far rather have the Blood of Jesus Christ speaking to God for mercy in my life, than have the Blood of Jesus Christ against me before the throne of God
Know this well God is good and ready to forgive and abounds in mercy to all who call upon Him. So call upon Him for His mercy while you may, for today is the day of Salvation
John UK wrote: Brother Saint Michael, you are working on
Brohter Saint John UK Wales Thank you again for the enouragement of your faith (which of course Christ has authored and will perfect in His own)
Wow! I guess we have hit a nerve with another one of of the Goosebumps of Dordt Crowd (maybe it is just yet a different moniker)
Again the Question: Are the elect (who in their lost state are thoroughly deliberately depraved sinners, with no natural desire for God), those who are by God predestinated (an enormously dangerous word to use wrongly) are they winnable to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ?
And does God will to use us in the winning?
If they are winnable to faith in Jesus Christ AND if God indeed wills to use us in Christ in the winning, let's go and spend our lives in winning them to Him
COMEDY Unregenerate Calvinists don't understand such things
Imho if you were anywhere as wise as you attempt to portray yourself you would know Calvinists such as Spurgeon and Whitefield spent their lives in being used by God in winning lost sinners to faith in His Son Jesus Christ
NOT a do nothing modern day Dordt type of Calvinism that will shut off the kingdom of heaven from men, like it appears to have done for you
John UK wrote: Amen Saint Michael! An onlooker at our prayer meetings ought to be able to ask the question, "Are you Quakers?" I'm working on it, bro. And I do thank you for your encouragements towards a return to biblical and experiential Christian reality of faith, which has the effect of radically changing our thinking concerning what we need to be doing with the lives God has given us. 2 Corinthians 5:15 GNB (15) He died for all, so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but only for him who died and was raised to life for their sake.
Brother Saint John I editted/shortened my previous post because I felt I had simply not given justice to the enormonity of all God is and how that utterly changes us who know Him, really know Him experientially
I trust you understand it will be something I will be doing much seeking the LORD about, both for myself and for others too on an ongoing basis for the rest of my life on earth
Here is a link to a video (to be watched with the red pen principle) that nevertheless illustrates God is SO VERY MUCH Bigger than how He is portrayed in a typical modern day church
John UK wrote: But let me say this, as it may benefit some who read these exchanges
and who were born again of the Spirit ...... have all experienced spiritually the five points known as TULIP, even if they never believed it and even spoke against it
Brother Saint John UK Wales I would have to say, "Yes, indeed God's "tulip," NOT a wilted, man-centered perversion of it."
Question: Are the elect (who in their lost state are totally deliberately depraved sinners, with no natural desire for God), those who are by God predestinated (a word we ought to treat fearfully more than the enormous care of those handling thermonuclear weapons) are they winnable to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? And does God will to use us in the winning?
If they are winnable to faith in Jesus Christ AND if God indeed wills to use us in the winning In Christ, let's go and spend our lives in the winning of them to faith in Jesus Christ!
And when they are saved, let's baptize them by immersion!
BUT if they are NOT winnable, and if God does NOT will to use us in winning them to Christ, let's go become hypermen and throw away real experiential saving faith in Jesus Christ to convert them to the modern day "do nothing goosebumps of Dordt"
Brother Saint John UK Thank you for your encouraging post He who has the Son has life!
Earlier you mentioned, "Here we go again. Salvation by goosebumps" which if we really dig into the things being stated is at the heart of the matter
Let me again point to the heartbreaking reality of those with no experiential faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in the new birth must needs be come up with a perversion of the gospel whereby one needs to do nothing and must do nothing but believe the 5 points of Dordt
And again they cannot stand the Truth of Scripture by itself alone, and point people to it, but must needs always redirect people to their "ultra enlighted Presbyterianism or something"
Spurgeon and Whitefield were not this way, they could and did, what believers can in good conscience do today, point people NOT to Dordt but to the Lord Jesus Christ
And Yes! Perhaps even with the urgency of telling them. Pray! Seek God! Read your Bible seeking to hear what God says to you. Until either you die or He saves you.
Something I do not believe unregenerate Calvinists understand, and worse perhaps have hardened their hearts so against God they no longer will ever want to understand
B. N. Dalton As respectfully as I might, Imho you sincerely think you know and are right in what is genuine true Christianity
BUT you seem to be jumping in with an agenda to promote somekind of "Calvinism" adding in things that are not being said at all in the conversation, and perhaps forgetting some foundational Biblical Truths (Doctrines) that apply.
For instance Question: If a person reads the Bible for themself what are they reading?
The words of mere men? The words of mere who have merely had a supernatural experience and are giving their report of it?
How about the very word of the Living God, who has sovereignly placed His word before them in their life?
Honestly the last answer kind of throws things into a much clearer picture of what is going on when a lost man or woman begins to read the Bible for themself
BTW Have you ever really humbly honestly read the Bible that way for yourself? or have you only allowed approved religous scholars to tell you what it says and means? (That would be quite dangerous)
B. N. Dalton wrote: I am surprised at you Frank. There is a difference between witnessing to someone on what the Bible says - And saying that a person is saved by the human activity of reading the Bible.
B. N. Dalton For the record you might want to pay very close attention to what I actually say
First I believe in Election, the Sovereignty of God in Salvation
Second I do NOT BELIEVE God divorces Election and His Sovereignty in Saving sinners from His Word, from Repentance, from personal faith put in His Son Jesus Christ
Third Imho some have placed their faith (without repentance or any kind of godly sorrow for their sin) in a system of theology NOT in Jesus Christ, and are still sinners, still unregenerate, still needing to flee (to God to forgive them) from the wrath to come
It is my opinion they have substituted a belief (I hope you realize Satan can give men very real supernatural experiences which are still thoroughly counterfeit revelations; thnk Joseph Smith and Mohammed) in somekind of modern day 5 Point Doctrines of Dordt, deceiving them into imagining "this 5 pts of Dordt is the only true Christianity (similar to the attitude of some RCs)
A real humble honest reading of Scripture and learning from the Holy Ghost will disabuse the child of God of what is amiss in the so called hyper-Calvinism of some, to be much more like a Spurgeon or Whitefield in their faith and love for the lost
SteveR Why thank you for reminding me of somethings I left out, as an example, the slander, false witness and false accusations of the ungodly from:
It might be significant to note SteveR and other "Jesuit Trolls" (humor here) unregenerate pretenders, never point people the word of God, to humbly honestly in the fear of the LORD to read it for themselves, but inevitably to ...
It is a wonderful blessing when the enemies of God's word remind you of how totally depraved sinners can be, especially the religious ones in love with the blasphemous idolatrous false religion of Roman Catholicism, that bewitches and preys upon sincere Catholic people and seeks to have dominion over all religions and denominations too
I am considering here, the distinct possibility that Satan has his choice servants (deceived into thinking they are doing service to God)
Who tickle the ears of people with a "genuine false" conversion experience, in order that keep them away from the Truth of Scripture that sets free indeed, those genuince saved by God and for God, who abide in the words of Christ
It might be significant to note SteveR and other "Jesuit Trolls" (humor here) unregenerate pretenders, never point people to the word of God, to humbly honestly in the fear of the LORD to read it for themselves, but inevitably to somekind of spin, ear tickling eisegesis or allegory of it.
If anyone with a "genuine false" conversion experience gets honestly and humbly into the Bible for themselves, seeking the LORD with all their heart, it is IMHO God is wonderfully willing and mighty to save them whereby thier calling and election will be very much sure, and with great assurance in the Holy Ghost
BRF wrote: Showing that false worship can not be disguised as true worship is not wicked, but your use of such pejorative words shows
nb And just why would you seek to make a distinction between liberals and homosexuals?
Haven't the liberal denominations been infamous for promoting homosexuality in apostate churches?
If you don't think liberalism or homosexuality affects you especially if you are innocent of such sins, fine you are entitled to your opinion. Maybe Lot thought it didn't affect him, his friends, his family either
nb Sorry but you need to reread my post again as both liberalism and its kissing cousing the homosexuality spoken of in the news article bring consequences into our lives, and those we love and care about even if we think we are immune from their influence and consequences and stick our heads into the sand thinking we're are safe hiding from it
nb wrote: You need to read Rudlington's post again. Try reading from the word "Liberalism"