mourner wrote: Honestly, I have not taken a picture of myself or any family member in a long time. I would rather see my new grand baby then a picture of him. I was given a picture but it grieves me, because it is not enough for me, I want to hold him and sing to him and teach him about our Creator/Redeemer. That's what his mother is afraid of, so I have a picture.
I'm so sorry to hear that, sister. I have not been deprived of seeing my grandchildren but it's still painful to see them being raised RC. If I had any idea that my question would open up a persistent, unhealed wound I would not have asked. I would rather bow out of a discussion than be a cause of grief so I will bow out.
mourner wrote: Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
"... or any likeness of any thing [...] that is in the earth beneath..."
Respectfully, sister, do you have a wedding picture or pictures of your loved ones?
Dorcas wrote: I take it then Lurker you believe to have so called "pictures" of the Lord is not condemned by holy writ? Not wanting to argue...just wondering?
I didn't say or imply that, sister. I have none in my house and personally don't approve of them for the same reason Christopher noted.... we have no idea of His likeness.
My point was, if one believes having pictures of heavenly things is a violation of the second commandment then the same manner of interpreting the commandment must apply to earthly things and things in the sea as well.
I have a picture of a myself holding a huge red snapper I caught years ago off the Alaska coast. I neither worship it nor do I bow down to it but by an even handed interpretation of the second commandment some would impose, I'm breaking the second commandment.
Another thing to consider. If, as Paul states, by the righteousness of Christ in us all the law is fulfilled by loving God and neighbor.... how should we reconcile that simple truth to the letter of the second commandment? Just something to think about.
"Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Christopher000 wrote: To me, the commandment is not about a picture, drawing, or any particular object, but rather, the worth that one gives it. The command speaks about having no other gods, bowing, serving, and jealousy. I think a graven image and likeness thereof is forbidden when the object, etc, becomes some sort of a magical object, lucky charm, or point of spiritual focus. Otherwise, just to own one? Even though I "think" this, I don't know for certain so I don't own any sort of paintings of angels, Christ, or other objects.. I always thought that was kind of silly anyway since nobody has any clue what either looks like anyway. I do own an oversized cross made of olive wood from Jerusalem, but that's it.
I have seen, so many times, people insisting that the commandment forbids possession of likenesses of heavenly things (pictures of Jesus, etc.) but ignore the rest of the command which includes things on earth or in the sea.
It's just another example of wreaking violence on God's holy word to condemn what one subjectively doesn't agree with. IOW, their objection is founded on presuppositions and not on the objective organic whole of the bible. It's not a God honoring practice but in fact dishonors Him.
seeking truth wrote: I guess we are finished with this Lurker. God Bless.
I guess we are so I'll leave you with this which, before our discussion, you may have been ignorant of....
Zec 11:4 Thus saith the LORD my God; 6 I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock. 8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. 10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. 12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. 14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
..... but now you have no excuse.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
TTC wrote: Does anyone still remember or even know the second commandment??
Exd 20:3-5 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.
R. K. Borill wrote: Can't argue about that Lurker, but the problem with the church is not going to be solved with a movie. The problem is idolatry, i.e. Thinking that God's word is insufficient, and that it must be supplemented with that which satisfies the senses. Any deviation from the regulative principle implies insufficiency. Jude 1:19 KJV  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Idolatry and satisfaction of the senses is what heathens do, Randy. I'm not sure I understand what that has to do with my hope and prayer that God would perchance use the movie to create an interest in someone, somewhere, to seek the Son of God while He may be found.
mourner wrote: Lurker the best part of my day was studying Zech. 11:4,7 praise God for his using you to direct me there, who'd figure (I don't like smiley faces or I'd use one- but its out of character, maybe a flying duck)
I'm so glad to hear it, sister. Bless you for saying so and praise Him for doing so. A flying duck will do just fine.
seeking truth wrote: All right Lurker here is the question you need to deal with. God declares in Scripture that the Abrahamic Covenant is everlasting. So Question- (1) Was God right? OR (2) Has history shown HIM to be wrong?
A loaded question, such as "Can God create a rock big enough that even He can't lift it?"
Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
Neither is the land everlasting because heaven and earth will pass away; nor was Israel's possession of it everlasting. But, according to your selective reasoning, the covenant is.
So why do you keep trying to slide a loaded question through? Isn't the truth sufficient to stand on its own merit with out devious slight of hand?
Dolores wrote: I agree, Lurker, that God can use any means He wants to to send forth His word. Our preacher endorsed the movie and said in spite of all the nit picking going on it is still worth going to see. Some sinners that would not set foot in a church to hear a preacher speak the word would go to a movie, maybe and seed would be planted in his heart. I read it made 26 million at first showing and that's a lot of people watching this movie.That's pretty encouraging to me. Not everybody has bowed their knee to Baal. That's so unbelievable, that I wonder if I got the numbers right??
That is encouraging, Dolores. I'd say 26 million box office take is probably right. Let's pray God would be pleased to use this movie for His glory.
NRC wrote: Two sermons found on SermonAudio concerning the latest piece of catholic new age pagan garbage that obviously is fooling some on this board. #213142152274 #32142217402
How could I be fooled by something I've not seen?
In case you missed it, I've never commented about the verity, or absence thereof, of the movie. How could I, not having seen it?
If you don't believe it's worthwhile to pray to God to use it as a means to draw lost souls to His Son, don't.
The more I contemplate God's covenants, the more I realize the importance of Zechariah 11 in comprehending those covenants.
In this chapter we see the same two covenants (Beauty and Bands) which Paul alluded to in his Gal 4:26 allegory, which together formed the first covenant God made with His people while in the wilderness. Together they were life (beauty, Zion) and death (bands, Sinai) ratified by circumcision of the heart and flesh respectively.
We also see that God broke both covenants and the timeline of fulfillment of the prophecy was when Jesus was betrayed (Beauty was broken) and when He was crucified (Bands was broken). It doesn't take a degree in divinity to see that the God/man Jesus was the first covenant and He ascended to the Father as the new covenant.
The perpetual Presby insistence that the covenant made with Abraham is extant to this day (with a few minor detail changes) is willful ignorance of what Jesus accomplished on the cross and ignorance of what the gospel Paul preached (Christ crucified) actually means.
It was said today that the New Testament writings do not enumerate a new set of covenant terms therefore the old is extant. Yes it does and the prophets foretold it.... Rev 3:12, cf. Isaiah 62:2, Jer 31:33.
Jessica Dawson wrote: The truth is, polar bears and penguins do not need ice and extreme cold temperatures to survive. The animal's food sources live below the ice, where they hunt for food in the wild. But they can be kept alive in confinement without ice and extreme cold temperatures. Polar bear at zoo
Thanks for the polar bear link, Jessica. It's amazing how they appear so lovable and docile yet are deadly.
Been praying for you, sister, that God would life your spirit. Like the angel said to Daniel, you are greatly beloved, not only by your brothers and sisters here, but by God.
Whenever I get down, and it happens more and more the older I get, I think of God's love and what He did to make an undeserving nobody like me a brother of His Son, and an heir to eternal life. Whatever this life throws at us is but a vapor compared to that which is reserved for us. Every day we endure the trials of this life is a day closer to receiving that crown and hearing those wonderful words....."Well done thou good and faithful servant."
May the Lord of mercy touch your body, soul and spirit.
GSTexas wrote: This man is woefully ignorant of sound biblical doctrine. There is only one "global giant" of spiritual emptiness, and that is sin. None of those things cause spiritual emptiness, but are rather the result of spiritual emptiness. Man is spiritually empty because he is born with a sin nature inherited from Adam (Romans 5:12) and has sinned against a holy God (Romans 3:23). What is the point in fighting these issues without first adressing the real issue (man has sinned against a holy God, and is in need of a savior) by spreading the Gospel? It truly saddens my heart that so many are deceived by this charlatan.
Well said. Not a rant and not to feel foolish for.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Well, Lurker, anybody can plainly see those verses teach that circumcision will be replaced with baptism. In fact, in the 3 pastoral epistles the baptizing of infants plays such importance in the church that Paul mentions it....ahhh....errrr....zero times. Surely, there must be something in Calvin's Institutes, or the WCF, that shows that these verses are saying what was mentioned earlier. Maybe a catechism. Gotta be somewhere, a commmentary ....
Did you notice the verse got a mention by Presby.... "some vague and obscure connections"?
Let's try this again.
Presby wrote: "EVERLASTING means everlasting."
God wrote: Zech 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Now what should a lover of the bible do? Scream the one at the top of their lungs and ignore the other? Or should one look to the terms of the covenant to see if it was conditional?
Deut 11:26-28 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments, and a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God.
Everlasting subject to performance of the people. Any other interpretation is purely subjective.
R. K. Borill wrote: You just don't get it Lurker, God does not contradict himself. It is the nature of truth to remain consistent. His Word alone is perfectly coherent and the standard by which all things are to be judged. Everything else is but profane and vain janglings (1 Tim. 6:20)
Have you seen the movie to know for a fact that there is not one shred of truth in it that God could use to His glory? If not, by what authority do you judge the entire movie profane and vain janglings and therefore useless to God (not your words but certainly implied)?
If you're convinced it will not/can not be used by God, I'll respect your conviction and pray that you're wrong for it is clear that the churches are not reaching the lost in this country.
Renewed NOT Replaced wrote: Only the detail of the Covenant has changed. Christ is the Mediator of the same Covenant today as the Covenant and the promises made to the Fathers and the oath made to Abraham. EVERLASTING means everlasting.
Since you brought it up, why not explain what details have changed. There is a slim possibility we could find something to agree on. Would prefer your own words if at all possible.
. . .
Dopey, Presby of a thousand monikers and I have been having this discussion for years and I'm sure he knows that, in spite of the banter and our differences, I love him as a brother in Christ. So, if it's not too much of a burden for you.... mind your own business.
Renewed NOT Replaced wrote: The Covenant of Grace began at Abraham's everlasting promise by God as described at Genesis 17. This same Covenant is the Covenant of which Christ is and always was the Mediator. Thus Christ saved Abraham and the OT saints in the same way and under the same Covenant, under the same MEDIATION - as HE saves His Elect today. NO CHANGE. Only the detail of the Covenant has changed. Christ is the Mediator of the same Covenant today as the Covenant and the promises made to the Fathers and the oath made to Abraham. EVERLASTING means everlasting.
And you'll prove it by quoting the WCF and your divines, right?
OK. Enough fun for one sitting. If I have any more I may be breaking a forum rule.
. . .
Edit: Did I get it right, Michael? Here comes the "proof" and a moniker change.
John UK wrote: An accusation of being a dispy deserves only a simple one word answer, and I think you got that one just right, Lurker.
Wasn't that a hoot?
I am aware that most Presby commentators place Reformed Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism as polar opposites but if they didn't lead such a sheltered life they'd realize there are other views of God's covenants and other reasons to oppose CT.... the plain teaching of the bible being one.
Apparently Presby doesn't read other threads or he'd know I am generally Amill with an exception.
Mike wrote: I feel sad. No one has accused me of being a dispy yet.
Can't have you going around sad all day so permit me to make your day. DISPY!
You know we love you, bro, regardless of a minor imperfection .... or so.
John UK wrote: I rather think we can observe history and see that our Lord has made use of all sorts of things in drawing sinners to Christ, bro. I have personally watched some creationist films which greatly enhanced my thinking of the awesomeness of God and what he has done. Obviously, it is the preaching of the gospel which finally brings men into his kingdom through the new birth and conviction of sin, but I see no fault in preparing hearts that peradventure they may become softened and ready for the seed of the word.
Your experience reminded me of another's.
About 10 years ago I became acquainted with a UK Reformed Baptist on another forum.... very knowledgeable in all aspects of the bible. He was a scientist with a Phd, if I recall correctly, who worked on North Sea oil rigs. Formerly an atheist. Before his conversion, he became so hostile to Christianity that he decided to buy a bible, read it for himself and prove once for all that it was a lie, filled with errors and post his findings on his own website. Well, guess what.... by the time he got to the back cover he was a convert.
In summary, you have not answered my previous question:
Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Is Abraham party to "these all"?
What promise is the writer of Hebrews speaking of that "these all" are not party to?
Can we expect to meet these first covenant saints in Paradise based solely on their good report through faith; i.e. they loved and believe God.... the outworking of faith?
Can we agree that Deut 6:5 "thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might" is the outworking of faith since faith is an enabling possession and a fruit of the Holy Spirit who was "with" the OT saints?
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
What is the "better thing" the writer of Hebrews speaks of?
Are the hall of saints party to "they without us"?
By what means are NC saints "made perfect"?
You don't owe me an answer to these questions and I don't expect it. But you do owe it to God and yourself.
Until you deal with this text, reconcile your covenant belief system to it (which will mean scrapping it and starting over, btw), you haven't got a biblical covenantal doctrine. It that simple.