Dave wrote: You're unbelievable. I say it straight to your face.
We either have a hypocrite or a moniker thief on the forum:
Bmac wrote to you:
"Dave, please, find the meaning of backbitting: "malicious talk about someone who is not present", which in this medium materialises by talking not directly to the person, but to a third party in order to scorn or cause distress, vilify, defame, or for character assassination of the first. This has not been my practice."
From the closed thread, John UK clearly referring to me, wrote to Bmac:
"total depravity, origin sin, and imputed sin ... Get it wrong on this, and heresies will abound inevitably..."
Bmac, again clearly referring to me, replied to John UK:
"We should be aware that Scripture warns us that some doctrines can have their origins in the very pit of hell, (see verse below mentioning doctrines of devils) and those propagating them may pass by equivocation as servants of Christ, when in reality they are Satan's. (2 Cor 11)"
MS wrote: Concerning the narcissistic PD, Lurker. Starting with myself if we really were honest; we have to admit that we all suffer from that wicked malady. To our shame. Trust all is well with you and yours. Every blessing.
No doubt to some degree. Sort of like the ever elusive humility. The moment we think we've attained it..... its gone.
I'd put my brother's NPD on par with our president.
All is well and thanks for asking. My wife and I got to enjoy 2 days with our 8 month old granddaughter this past weekend at our home. Such a blessing.
B. McCausland wrote: We should be aware that Scripture warns us that some doctrines can have their origins in the very pit of hell, (see verse below mentioning doctrines of devils) and those propagating them may pass by equivocation as servants of Christ, when in reality they are Satan's. (2 Cor 11)
Oh, alright Bmac. Since you seem to be grief stricken that I actually ignored your last comment to me (as I said I would), I'll humor you out of sympathy.
Let's get the record straight. I have proposed no doctrines. I have challenged your doctrine with scripture. I would think you and others would be thrilled to have someone actually put your doctrine to the test. If its true, scripture should uphold it. My latest installment to 2 Tim 3:16 is on the table for anyone who believes they can actually discuss scripture civilly. Personally I doubt you can but I always have the option to ignore your veiled insults.
Btw, do you suffer from narcissistic personality disorder? I ask because I have an older brother now 80 who has had it all his adult life and it has gotten much worse the older he gets. Self centered, high opinion of himself, believes whatever comes out of his mouth is truth. Oh well, it doesn't really matter.
Buckeyes wrote: 2Tim 3:16) @Lurker, the law of God is the whole body of stated truths both OT and NT concerning and defining good, evil, justice, and injustice.
Again, thanks for your opinion on the Law of God. However, I'm not convinced by opinions. I need indisputable biblical facts such as:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put **my law** in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ezek 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put **my spirit** within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
It could be said that neither prophecy was complete in and of itself and the sum of the two, my law and my Spirit, renders the proper meaning which makes God an inept Author. Or, it could be said that one interprets the other. I choose the latter because there is no record that anything was sent down from the Father except the Holy Spirit.
Gal 3:14 ...that we might receive the promise of the Spirit...
B. McCausland wrote: The differentiation you make has no Scriptural grounds. 'The law' in Scripture includes all the body of God's precepts given to Israel. See here how the great commandment is referred as part of *the law*
I didn't say the great commandments were not part of the law. In fact I quoted their source... Deut 6:5, Lev 19:18.
I deny your assertion, although veiled, that the great commandments are the Decalogue. They are polar opposites; life vs. death.
Btw, your closing jab wasn't helpful. Keep it up and I'll ignore you.
. . .
@ 2 Tim,
Thanks for your reply but it wasn't helpful. You wrote in your first post:
"First I would like to make it clear that the law of God has never been able to justify anyone..."
How can you make that statement unless you absolutely know what the Law of God is? If you wrote the Law of Moses instead, I'd surely agree but I can't agree as written. The importance is clear as it carries over to an understanding of the NC promise at Jer 31:33.
So many claim Jer 31:33 is proof that God writes the Decalogue on our hearts as a moral compass, but Ezek 11:19-20, 36:25-25 are counterparts of the promise. No mention of laws... only God's Spirit. Could it be that the indwelling HS is the Law of God?
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Just for clarification, my comment is not intended as a criticism of brother Lurker but a loving correction of brother John UK 's inaccurate thinking concerning him.
Thank you for your kindness, dear brother.
I've had no desire to comment for the past several months and will likely disappear again shortly as I have no delusions of convincing anyone of the error of their traditions. There is comfort and security in numbers and few be there who are open minded enough to paddle against the current so the bandwagon fallacy will likely prevail.
B. McCausland wrote: Christ referred to the ten commandments as the law in Luke 10, not in the strict sense as a covenant. See: "a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, *What is written in the law* ? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. " Both, Christ and the lawyer seemed to coincide in that *the law* meant the Decalogue
Sorry but the great commandments are not the ten commandments. Far from it as the tables of stone are death and condemnation (2 Cor 3:7) while the great commandments are life: "this do, and thou shalt live."
It's such a pity that tradition has blinded so many eyes to the grace of God (1 Tim 1:14) and the righteousness of Jesus Christ. He came to fulfill the law and the prophets and love of God (Deut 6:5) and neighbor/brethren (Lev 19:18) fulfilled the righteousness of both covenants; Zion and Sinai. His righteousness is fully comprehended in the great commandments and that is the gospel Paul was sent to preach.
Buckeyes wrote: (2Tim 3:16) First I would like to make it clear that the law of of God has never been able to justify anyone...
Hello 2 Tim,
You began your argument with an assumption; that is, you assume the Law of God is the covenant God gave to Moses at Sinai. However, the Law of Moses is spoken of 49 times throughout the bible and leaves no doubt it speaks of the Sinai covenant, all of it; the stone tables, Levitical Law, statutes, judgments and ordinances.
Paul speaks of the Law of God three times in Romans:
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man...
He contrasts that to another law of sin, death and condemnation in his flesh; no doubt speaking of the Levitical Law which Paul's flesh, being a Jew, was subjected to.
The Law of God Paul delighted in is the very first fulfillment (1 Tim 1:16) of God's NC promise:
Jer 31:33 I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts...
How did God first fulfill His NC promise in Paul? By the indwelling Holy Spirt, who is God, who is love.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
My challenge to you: Make a biblical argument demonstrating that the Law of God is whatever you assume it to be.
John UK wrote: And none of them kept all those ten commandments, because of being born with a sinful nature and original sin; guilty from the womb, having sinned in Adam.
Lurker, you're going to have to read between the lines if ever you want to grasp God's eternal plan for his elect.
Until you see the effects of the Fall, you'll always be a dispensationalist; that is, you see God trying out different ways of dealing with men, hoping each time for a better result, never getting it.
There's only ever been one way, and it involves blood.
I thought you were pitching Kev that NC Christians were bound by the moral law which was the reason for my comment. Now you're saying that I'll never perceive that unless I sign onto the doctrine of original sin. The truth of a man's doctrine is established by another man's doctrine.
I'm really at a loss for words so I think it best I say nothing more at all.
John UK wrote: ... tell me plainly what relationship the Christian has with the moral law.
I'll probably regret this, John, but....
Were you aware that what you and many others call the moral law was actually God's covenant with Israel?
Deut 4:12-14 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. ***And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.*** And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
1) By what authority do you and many others divide God's covenant with Israel into 3 parts?
2) Can you demonstrate from scripture that the ten commandments are part and parcel of the New Covenant?
It would serve you well to realize that a "stony heart" is one that has its affections set on the ministration of death written on tables of stone. Such was Paul's heart until God had mercy on Him. And you would have God take away a stony heart and write death on it again? God fulfilled His NC promise through Paul's preaching of the gospel, not the Decalogue.
John for Jesus wrote: I have a hard time believing mentally handicapped people or aborted babies all go to hell.
Knowing you have a mentally challenged child, I'll submit this post out of compassion for your concerns.
"In Adam all die...." Jesus, a mortal son of man, died, therefore His mortal body was in Adam until His resurrection (which is the subject of 1 Cor 15) so "thinking cap" is dead wrong where he wrote "It comes from being in Adam, something Christ was not but you are."
Jesus was made (in the womb) like unto His brethren, who were also in Adam:
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
It was not until after His death and resurrection to immortality (Heb 9:16-17) that He was made a quickening Spirit according to 1 Cor 15:45.
So...... if Adam's actual sin is imputed to all who are in Adam, it must have of necessity been imputed to Jesus the mortal son of man.
If you want to discuss further, put up your email address and I'll contact you but I'll not discuss it further here.
B. McCausland wrote: No problem, Lurker, about being quickened with Christ. Yes, the balm of love is shed in our hearts, but still there are a multitude of warnings all over the epistles against feeding the flesh.
Indeed there are many warnings. But here's the question.
Will knowledge of the Decalogue overcome the warnings? If you say yes... and you still hold to the Decalogue being written on hearts... why the warnings?
There is not one warning you can cite which is not overcome by this teaching of Jesus:
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Now I know that the sight of "commandments" will give you thoughts of Sinai in spite of my previous post but here are His commandments:
John 6:29 This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
B. McCausland wrote: Which law do you think God is speaking about here: "I will put *my law* in their inward parts and write it in their hearts Jer 31:33
I have asked repeatedly for something from scripture to establish the assertions here to no avail. Nothing but more unfounded assertions and rabbit trails. Actually, I understand because there is nothing in scripture to establish the assertions. Nothing. So, using the same standard, I'll answer your question.
The parable of the soils:
Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away **the word that was sown in their hearts**.
The soils are hearts. The seed is the Word (Logos) aka gospel. Logos is God, God is love, the HS is God. Therefore:
Rom 5:5 the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Hearts are quickened to love God, the outworking of faith.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Mortal bodies are quickened to love the brethren.
Love is the law of God, always has been, always will be.
B. McCausland wrote: 1. The mechanics how God writes the Decalogue are identical to the mechanics by which God gives a new heart, because they both come in a pack.
2) Which law do you think God is speaking about here: "I will put *my law* (towrah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" Jer 31:33 2. Sorry you seem lost in the trail of thought.
1) A new heart and the Decalogue come in a pack? Another assertion with nothing to back it up. A quote from any NT text which timeline is after the NC promise would do wonders to bolster your assertion of what happens at conversion. Surely there is something. Perhaps you all need to consult your favorite commentators for help with this? Or is it that none of them actually put their doctrine to the test?
2) I'll get to that in due time. Right now I'm extending you the courtesy to defend your assertions.
3) Your trail was irrelevant to the subject at hand.
B. McCausland wrote: To wish to know the mechanics of how God creates a new heart is quite presumptions. The reason of your inquiry derives from a poor view of the plan of God as a whole;
I didn't ask for the mechanics of how God creates a new heart. I already know the answer for that. I asked for the mechanics of how God writes the Decalogue on hearts at conversion. This is the assertion made by June and affirmed by you.
If this assertion is true, it is reasonable to ask for something from scripture to establish it as true..... more specifically, something from scripture which would take place after the prophetic promise of Jer 31:31-34, upon which prophecy your assumption is imposed. If you can't produce such scriptural proof then the obvious conclusion is your assertion is false.
You and June ought to be thankful for a sparring partner with an opposing view. This give you opportunity to defend what you believe from a perspective you probably have not considered before. If it holds up, so much the better for you. If not, well that's between you and God.
As for the remainder of your comments, I'm not even going down that rabbit trail which wanders off into covenant theology and away from the task at hand.
JuneAnnette wrote: 1) The bible is the divinely inspired word of God. 2) The Holy Spirit engraves the "word of God" upon the soul of all those who are born again 3) and that includes the 10 commandments
Oh dear, June!
I suspect by now if I said the sky was blue you'd disagree. I'm not your enemy, June. We both love God and the brethren and that makes us brother and sister. Just think of me as a sparring partner whose sole intent is to get to the truth of this discussion.
1) I didn't say or imply the bible wasn't inspired by God. But the bible as we know it wasn't even canonized until close to the 5th century nor were the gospels even penned at the time they were spoken. So I really don't have a clue what your point was of quoting all those bible verses.
2) The Holy Spirit IS the Word of God.
3) An assertion yet to be established.
Scripture interprets scripture:
John 1:1 The Word (Logos) is God (Theos). 1 John 4:8 God (Theos) is love (Agape).
Romans 5:5 the love (agape) of God (theos) is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
This is the work of the Holy Spirit in conversion and is agreeable with your point 2 above. But point 3 needs a similar proof and that is what I have been asking for.
My question: How does God write the Decalogue on hearts at conversion?
B. McCausland wrote: 1) By creating in us a new heart and giving us his Spirit,
2) which makes us aware of his expressed will, and directs us to follow it.
Thanks for your reply,
1) Agree this is God's work at conversion.
2) I can agree with that too. But it doesn't answer how the Decalogue gets written on hearts at conversion. You assume His expressed will is contained in the Decalogue.
I'm asking for a biblical explanation of how the mechanics of God writing the Decalogue on hearts actually takes place and some sort of example from the Acts.
Repeating what I said to June. It is one thing to come up with a doctrine and it is another to put it to the test. If your assertions are biblical, there ought to be some evidence of it in practice in the early church age.
. . .
Respectfully, the biblical word "Word" has a distinct meaning. It comes from the Greek word Logos.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with Theos, and the Logos was Theos.
The Word is God, God is love. The Word is not the bible nor the Decalogue.
Just trying to be helpful. Btw, I'm no theologian or scholar either. Just a simple man who loves God
I'm neither impressed nor intimidated by such labels so if you and others find it useful in this discussion; by all means continue.
Regarding your comment:
"extensive biblical proof has been provided throughout the thread against the issue."
So far "proof" seems to be absent from the arguments and commentaries posted here. All of the supposed proof I've seen so far comes from biblical texts with contested interpretations. I rather think you mean "opinions".
That said, sister June has yet to respond to my previous post. I understand we all have time constraints and a life besides posting on SA. However, if you'd care to respond to that post...........