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· Page 1 ·  Found: 500 user comments posted recently.
News Item9/10/14 11:06 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
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More on the day of the Lord....

Isa 13:9-11 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath [Rom 1:18] and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners [Amos 9:10] thereof out of it.
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (Compare to Joel 2:31)
And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Oba 1:15-21 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests [to the marriage supper of the Lamb] (Compare to Rev 19:7, 17-18).

Knowing a day of the Lord was in progress at the time Paul penned his letter to the Romans, can anyone believe Rom 13 ordains civil magistrates? Read about He who bears the sword in Rev 19.


News Item9/10/14 9:27 PM
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Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

We can learn who the minister of God is by learning what was happening during the time Paul penned his letter.

Citation: Rom 15:10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Source: Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Sounds like judgment to me.

Text: Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand

Reference: Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Context: Amo 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword (cf. Rom 7:9, Eph 2:1). Next verse is cited Acts 15:15-17 confirming fulfillment following Paul's calling.

There are many more but how much evidence is necessary to see that *a* day of the Lord (judgment) had commenced when the wrath of God was revealed from heaven (Rom 1:18). I say *a* day of the Lord as one preceded ending at Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21) and another is to come.


News Item9/10/14 11:26 AM
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SteveR wrote:
So far Lurker has ignored Scripture, so rulings from the Sanhedrein are unlikely to sway him/her(imo)
You're probably right, Steve. Why would I be swayed by the Sanhedrin since they are guilty of the same thing I have been arguing against.... in bed with the civil authorities for the purpose of shedding innocent blood.

Mar 15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council [Sanhedrin], and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.


News Item9/8/14 12:19 AM
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James Thomas wrote:
Lurker,
Nothing in NT on unity of church-state
Romans 13
1 Peter 2:13-14
1 Timothy 2
Teaches the attitude of the individual believer to the state. Thats it.
WFC ...duty of magistrate
New testament? Only one? Matthew 2:4-5 Thats the proof verse?
OT
Israel was unique
Naturally born a jew, circumcised...a heritage.
Pretty flimsy material to build a doctrine on.... especially when that doctrine meant the death of so many dissenters of the ruling religious machinery.

Thanks brother.

. . .

Thanks Mike, I remember you weren't on board the Romans 13 bandwagon and glad to see you speak up.

Lord willing I may tackle who the "minister of God" actually is. Seems only right after expending so much energy disproving the idea that he figures civil government. But for now I don't have the energy.


News Item9/7/14 8:08 PM
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John UK wrote:
1 Corinthians 11:2-3 KJV
(2) Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
(3) But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
I remember talking to a South African charismatic pastor once, and he was saying that a wife only has to obey her husband if he does all things lawfully according to God's word.
Does this have any bearing on what we are discussing?
I don't believe so, John. This is instruction between Christ and His people. My point of contention is leagues made between church and state based on Romans 13 to justify the torture and murder of multitudes of church dissenters similar to what ISIS is doing right now.

For clarification; Christians have dual citizenship being strangers and pilgrims on earth knowing our eternal home is the heavenly city. Yes, we should render to Caesar his due. Yes, we should seek the peace of the land of our sojourning and pray unto the LORD for it: for in the peace thereof we shall have peace (Jer 29:7). But I find no biblical justification for church hierarchy to crawl in bed with the state for the purpose of executing dissenters.


News Item9/7/14 3:13 PM
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SteveR wrote:
You deserve an ordinance? You are not even entitled to Special Revelation(Scripture), let alone a special message. And you ignore that Special Revelation. All men are without excuse by General Revelation(Creation) alone.
Maybe you can take a class on the physical sciences and study the order and governance of the universe? It would be more beneficial for you than finding a way to not render honour to Caesar.
So God thought it needful to establish statutes for minor details like not mixing fabric materials, prohibition of cross dressing and care of beasts of burden but He didn't think it was necessary to establish an ordinance for civil governance... that it should be common knowledge of general revelation? The New Covenant, written on the hearts of His people at a time when all they had was a called and sent preacher, doesn't contain the sum of God's covenant obligation to Him?

You're beyond grasping for straws, Steve. I'm so embarrassed for you.

. . .

Ryle fan,

Maybe you can help Steve find that ordinance establishing civil government. He's backed himself into a corner.


News Item9/7/14 9:20 AM
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SteveR wrote:
Ye know not the Scriptures
While Nero might have chuckled, when Pontious Pilate was informed his civil authority was from above, he immediately sought the release of Christ.
John 19:10-12....
Ah yes, some scripture to deal with.

So what I hear you saying is God established civil government before Romans 8. OK, Steve. Where is it published so we can all read about it and be obedient to God's ordinance?


News Item9/7/14 8:23 AM
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John UK wrote:
Lurker,
In the course of the New Testament, we often find the disciples having to make decisions concerning whom to obey, whether the government (who beat them and commanded them to no more preach in the name of Jesus Christ), or the Lord God Almighty (who gave them command to preach Jesus Christ openly and in public). It seems they had no problem coming to a right decision to obey God rather than men. How does this figure in the context of what you are saying?
I ask this, partly to better understand Romans 13, and partly because much of Christendom has been effectively silenced by the secular authorities. Are they silenced because of fear of biblical-style reprisals such as that experienced by the apostles, or silenced because they believe they have to obey the "civil magistrate", and therefore they can cease to obey the commission of Christ while maintaining friendly relations with God?
Good point and questions, John.

The events of Acts 5 seems to stand in opposition to the traditional interpretation of Romans 13 but a careful study will reveal that the council which commanded the apostles not to preach Jesus was actually the Sanhedrin, not Roman civil government, confirmed by Gamaliel's address to them: "Ye men of Israel".


News Item9/7/14 12:54 AM
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pennned wrote:
Nero burned his own city, blamed it on the Christians.
SteveR wrote:
Dont you trust GOD to give Nero his due?

Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

I had to chuckle when I read this. How conveniently Steve launches Rom 12:19, stripping it from its source prophecy context, and assigning it to Nero (and who knows who else or when) who hadn't even ascended to power when the prophecy was fulfilled.

Of course, Steve also claims the secular world is not subject to the Sinai covenant so I'm not sure, exactly, what God can do to him in that case since he had no guilt.... no law no imputation of sin. Strange stuff.

Stuart F wrote:
He won't need one where he is.
Thanks for the chuckle.

. . .

Oh, btw, John. The timeline of fulfillment of the final verse of the song of Moses (Deut 32:43) (and as a consequence, much of what precedes it) is established by Paul in Romans 15:10 as the time God cast off the Jews and had mercy on the Gentiles (foolish nation Deut 32:21 cf Rom 10:19). Good reading, bro. and goodnight.


News Item9/6/14 11:40 PM
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SteveR wrote:
You have quoted from the Song of Moses(Deut 32) more than once on this thread, yet you still require more evidence? To me Deut 32 and Romans 13 confirm GODs glory, justice and that NO ESCAPE can be made from HIS power.
The Song of Moses is your proof that God ordained "civil government" in Romans 13? Could you be a bit more specific?

Oh, for the good old days when you could summon the magistrate, gather the sticks and do God's service by roasting a heretic. Maybe you and Presby could do s'mores.

. . .

Brother John,

Revisiting you comment, you wrote: "In the times it was written, the good-doers were all being persecuted by the authorities, so that wouldn't make sense if it was the authorities who had the sword, but it would make sense if it was Jehovah."

You are right when interpreting Acts up to chapter 9 in light of early church historians but when interpreted in light of the prophets, the ruling Jews, not Caesar, were persecuting God's people by teaching them to do evil. This is what provoked God to jealousy, wrath and judgment (Rom 1:18). Please read Deut 32:15-43 noting that Jeshurun (upright one) refers to the ruling Jews. It will be helpful in seeing prophecies being fulfilled when Paul penned Romans.


News Item9/6/14 6:18 PM
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SteveR wrote:
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation
For centuries its always been understood to be the CIVIL magistrate.
Appeal to popularity.
SteveR wrote:
Its not just hardliners, here is what Methodist Adam Clarke says.
"As God is the origin of power, and the supreme Governor of the universe, he delegates authority to whomsoever he will; and though in many cases the governor himself may not be of God, yet civil government is of him;
...no Christian is authorized to rebel against the civil power; he must bear the persecution, and, if needs be, seal the truth with his blood, and thus become a martyr of the Lord Jesus. This has been the invariable practice of the genuine Church of Christ. They committed their cause to him who judgeth righteously."
Begging the question.

The entire argument is built on the assumption "civil government is of him". No biblical warrant to establish the assertion. Just another toothless opinion built on the shifting sands of subjective reasoning and bandwagon fallacy.


News Item9/6/14 8:02 AM
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John UK wrote:
Lurker, am appreciating your posts on this, as I'd never thought about it before. I think the passage in Romans 13 talks about he who has the sword not only gives judgment to the evil-doer but also praise to the good-doer. In the times it was written, the good-doers were all being persecuted by the authorities, so that wouldn't make sense if it was the authorities who had the sword, but it would make sense if it was Jehovah. The apostles were put to the sword by the authorities, but not by God, who received all of them into the heavens and gave them rewards for well doing.
You've got it, John!

When you put the text in its proper timeline, the idea that the minister of God is Caesar just doesn't add up logically or scripturally. From the time of Stephen's stoning till Paul was blinded on Damascus Road, it was the JEWS ruling over God's people (Is 52:1-7) who were persecuting the church, scattering them abroad, through Pharisee zealots like Saul/Paul until God said 'enough' (Rom 1:18) ushering in the day of the Lord, judgment, vengeance, avenging innocent blood and putting His sword in the hand of He who was given authority to execute judgment (John 5:26-27). It was the time He took His kingdom away from them (Mat 21:43).

More later.


News Item9/6/14 1:18 AM
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Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

After my batteries are recharged, it's time to refocus on who bears the sword.

Any questions or comments so far? I'm sure the rigid Reformed Puritans don't appreciate having their justification for the murder of dissenter/separatists poked full of holes but, hey, you'll have that. Your comments are welcome too.


News Item9/6/14 12:07 AM
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Regarding Romans 13, the goal is to learn the reality the sword figures. The reason this is so important is, once it is known what the reality of the figure is, it's an easy job to identify he who bears the sword.

There is no single verse which clearly states what the sword is but it is possible to learn God's meaning if we do a little Berean burrowing.

Deut 32:41 If {I whet my glittering sword}, and {mine hand take hold on judgment}; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

This is the clearest verse I'm aware of that equates the sword to judgment and God's vengeance; His means to kill His enemies (Deut 32:39). Either phrase in brackets can be omitted and the verse will still convey the same meaning. This sentence construction is fairly common throughout the bible and is invaluable to learn the language of God.

I've already commented on the following text a couple times but, once again to drive the point home.

Amos 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword...

The next verse is cited in Acts 15:15-16 establishing the timeline of fulfillment as when Paul died on Damascus Road (Rom 7:9). Paul died by the sword but he said it was the law (of Moses) which slew him. Contradiction? Nope. They're one and the same.


News Item9/5/14 6:50 PM
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SteveR wrote:
{bzzzz} Wrong answer
Sanai Covenant is for a PARTICULAR people and not universal. Secular nations and peoples are not bound by the SC. Why cant you be a man and say you dont want to render unto Caesar what is Caesars?
SteveR,

You really should give more thought to what you shoot from the hip in defense of your pet doctrines.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Now if the secular world in not under the Sinai covenant (i.e. wrath of God, John 3:36), then they have no guilt of sin for where there is no law there is no imputation of sin.

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

No law, no guilt on judgment day aka the day of the Lord, no lake of fire.

I'm just exhausted trying to figure a way to take Caesar's sword away, night after night.... I'm taking a nap.


News Item9/5/14 6:18 PM
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Dorcas wrote:
Lurker, John UK...
Gods Truth is always simpler to understand than the complex, deviating notions of 'teachers' who endeavor to prove unfounded theories.
Seems that I have the tendency to rub some people the wrong way when I speak my mind about this subject so I'll just say..... Amen, sister.

News Item9/5/14 11:34 AM
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SteveR wrote:
{bzzzz} Wrong answer
Sanai Covenant is for a PARTICULAR people and not universal. Secular nations and peoples are not bound by the SC. Why cant you be a man and say you dont want to render unto Caesar what is Caesars?
Really? What "particular" people? By what means will God cast the secular nations into the lake of fire? What is the book sealed with seven seals (Rev 5:1)? What are the books opened at the great white throne judgment (Rev 20:12)?

I thought CT taught God's covenant with Abraham, circumcision into the Sinai covenant, was everlasting and extant to this day. Was Ishmael and Esau circumcised?

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Seems like Jesus sees two peoples... those who were given to Him by the Father and those who weren't. Tell us about this "wrath of God", Steve... the same wrath of God Paul said was revealed from heaven (Rom 1:18). Better yet, why not be patient and behave yourself and I'll explain it in an upcoming post.

. . .

Thanks James,

I found an excerpt; ...

http://togethercanada.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/if-by-amy-carmichael/

... very appropriate.


News Item9/5/14 12:14 AM
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In summary, so far I've concentrated on the sword the minister of God bears. Deut 32:41 ties the sword to God's judgment and vengeance. In context and the same timeline, Deut 32:43 is tied to Romans 15:10 establishing the prophecy's fulfillment as the time God cast off the Jews and sent Paul to the Gentiles according to Jesus' parable in Matt 21:23-44. Also, at Rom 12:19, Paul cited Deut 32:35 indicating the time of God's vengeance was in progress.

Amos 9:10 states all the sinners of my people will die by the sword. The next verse is cited in Acts 15:15-17 establishing the timeline of fulfillment at the time of Paul's calling. Paul states he died when the commandment came (Rom 7:9) and we can conclude by the same glittering sword the minister of God bears. Paul died the same death as Adam and Eve. They didn't die because they disobeyed God. They died because the fruit was another of many figures of the works of the law.

So what is God's glittering sword? The letter (deeds) of the law which kills (2 Cor 3:6).

Having established the sword is the tenor of the Sinai covenant and God's judgment, consider this. At the time Paul penned his letter to the Romans, who would have been God's revenger commonly understood to be civil magistrates? Herod? Caesar? See John 5:26-27.


News Item9/4/14 10:07 PM
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Jim Lincoln wrote:
As much as ISIS and other evil groups throughout the 20th and now into the 21st century, unnatural practices like this reducing humans into nothing more than breeding stock, makes me think the Tribulation will be coming soon. So, it is comforting to have http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=8110695312 (Evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture part 1) and http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=81106105150 (Evidence for the Pre-Trib Rapture part 2).
I'd recommend you hope (in vain, btw) for the best (whisked away before things get tough) but plan for the worst (toughing it out with the rest of us until the final day of the Lord).

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and ***every eye*** shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give ***every man*** according as his work shall be.

"Every eye", "every man" except the Christians who were whisked away over a thousand years ago? Don't be so trusting in Gil. It's your life, not his.


News Item9/4/14 9:30 PM
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pennned wrote:
Lurker, its a joy to read you tackling Romans 13. a careful interpretation of that chapter has never been more needed that today.
Thank you, dear sister, for your encouragement. I fully agree with your assessment of Romans 13 now realizing that a centuries old false interpretation has led to the shedding of so much innocent blood. Hopefully another installment shortly.

. . .

Michael,

This came to mind this morning but didn't have room to post it. As it turns out, I still don't have room so I'll post this instead.... 1 Cor 12:1-31.

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