Strat wrote: Jew Hater news update,Israel is still defending it's self against your spiritual brothers....Hamas,and there is nothing you can do about it. Jew haters all over the world are spewing spit about it,if they knew what was good for them they would pray it ends in Israel's favor because if it doesn't their world is over.
Strat, You believe the Jews in the ME are God's chosen people and it is your right to believe what you will. However, it is not your right to accuse those of us who disagree with your eschatology of hating Jews and rejecting their right to defend themselves when in fact the opposite is true. They need the Redeemer as much as anyone and without Him they will perish in their sin. That means there is only one people of God..... those who:
... believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. (1 John 3:23-24)
Strat wrote: I couldn't care less what any of you think to be honest with you,i just like full disclosure,you actually come closer to saying how much you hate Jews than do the rest so good for you...the others are getting closer so there is still hope for them
In the interest of full disclosure, perhaps you could share with us that special prophecy which has you convinced that God returned the Jews to their inheritance in an unrepentant state. Surely you have biblical warrant to proclaim these unrepentant Christ rejecters "God's people".
John UK wrote: Thanks Lurker for your encouraging words. At this point in my pilgrimage, I am looking to the skies and listening for the sound of a great trumpet blast, which will herald the end of the world and an ushering to judgment for all, as the angels gather men together, but separated as sheep and goats. Those unsaved need to think seriously about their eternal destination, and not let one more day go past without calling upon the name of the Lord, repenting of sin and unbelief, and wholly trusting themselves to the safekeeping of the Good Shepherd, who says to them, "Him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out." Today is the day of salvation, now is the accepted time, the day of grace is almost over, the door getting ready to be shut.
The world is an ugly place to live in these days; on so many different fronts. Can't be a Christian without wondering how long before Jesus rises up in fury and says.... Enough!
We need to encourage each other with the unvarnished Biblical truth.... not comforting tales like a pre-trib rapture.
There is so much biblical truth that has an impact on our end times view that gets no attention or mention. I think I'll put together another study, building on the previous one.... perhaps tomorrow night.
John UK wrote: 1) What do you think to this then, bro. If Jesus was granted "all authority" in heaven and in earth, at his resurrection, then logically the devil has been given no authority.
2) Is he bound already? In that sense. We know he goes about with some freedom, but he has no power or authority in this world.
3) Am I clutching at straws? And perhaps is there really a time coming when he will be taken completely off the scene. I keep an open mind on this subject, and find it one of the hardest to grapple with.
1) Sounds reasonable, John. Doesn't mean he's powerless in this world... just that he doesn't have free reign. And, of course, he is rendered powerless in God's holy mountain, which we are.
2) Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. That happened when the disciples were called by a new name.... Christians.
3) No, I don't think you're clutching at straws. Eschatology doesn't come easy to everyone but you have an advantage over many in that you have an open mind and that you really do hold the bible as the final word. As we both know well, that isn't always the case.
Anyway, what I wanted to demonstrate is the value of letting the bible determine the timeline of prophetic fulfillment.
Verse 1 thru 5 speaks of He who sits on the white horse of Revelation 19. Note the language of verse Isaiah 11:4 is similar to Rev 19:15. Both point to judgment and the day of the Lord's vengeance.
Verse 6 thru 9 speaks of the peace brought about by the binding of Satan at Revelation 20:1-3. Notice "they shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain" aka Zion; the eternal habitation of God (Ps 132:13-14). It does not imply that Satan is powerless to deceive the heathen.
Verse 11-16 speaks of God gathering the remnant of Israel from their captivity as well as the dispersed of Judah. The words "second time" in verse 11 refers to the exodus from Egypt as the first time meaning the day of the Lord is a time of trial. Those who remain faithful to the end receive the promise and those who fall away perish. As pointed out in another discussion; only those who have been cleansed of sin receive their inheritance when the day of the Lord ends.
The whole chapter is a cohesive thought from the mind of God. Now, compare verse 10 to:
Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Dorcas wrote: Sorry to hijack this thread, but I would please ask my sisters and brethren on this site for prayer. Concerning our youngest grandchild who knows not the Lord, and has just gone thru a violent traumatic event. Is having a very difficult time. Thank you for those who the Lord leads in this matter.
So sorry to hear of your grandchild's trouble, sister. Count on my prayers.
A secondary search for "In that day" is also helpful for it almost always refers to the day of the Lord.
There have been some historical "Days of the Lord" such as Israel's 40 years wilderness trial and the first 7 weeks of Daniel's seventy weeks after the Babylonian captivity all of which add to a biblical understanding of the term.
pennned wrote: the day of the Lord I always thought was His Second Coming, judgment on the world but also the blessed day of salvation. there is this age and the age to come. and yes we see in the OT the day of the Lord in particular regime changes, repetitive, but there is another greater day of the Lord. I may put scriptures out if time avails. Here we see a cosmic and absolute day of reckoning... Isaiah 13: 9-11, 13
Not that I disagree, Penny, but there is context to deal with.....
Isa 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.
Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.
This demands the text be interpreted as being fulfilled at the end of the Babylonian captivity, circa 516 BCE. However, there is also this....
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Who is this man more precious than Neb the head of gold? Cyrus? And do we have reason to believe that Cyrus is a type of Christ..... He who sits atop the white horse in Rev 19? If so, it seems reasonable to say that while Is 13 is a historical record it is also given as a figure for a future to circa 516 BCE event.
SteveR wrote: Lurker We agree in principle. However, Assyria is vastly different from Babylon.
Your point is well taken, Steve. My point was that the Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ are the same as far as purpose (execution of judgment) but agree with you that they can be different in the prophets to the extent of who executes judgment. That said, both terms are used interchangeably in the NT and always point to the Lord's coming in fiery vengeance, wrath and judgment.
GSTexas wrote: Lurker, what are your views concerning the millenium? Im very interested to see your thoughts on this subject.
Hard to do justice with so few characters, GS. I don't claim the label Amill because there are variations of when Christ's reign begins. One at the incarnation and another at Pentecost, I believe.
By cross referencing many prophecies with their NT cited fulfillments, I find that Christ's reign began when the disciples of Christ were first called Christians at Antioch. Of course, that means from the time of Paul's calling on Damascus Road until the disciples were called by a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Rev 2:17, etc.) a "day of the Lord" took place (corresponding to Rev 19) and an age ended when that day of the Lord ended.
pennned wrote: I can only guess the previous comment is Catholic theology. I've never heard of it before either.
Actually Steve is half right. The day of the Lord is the imposition of His wrath and judgment on all who name His name. The Assyrian and Babylonian captivities serve as figures for later tribulation. However, those captivities ended with another day of the Lord's vengeance during which He redeemed His remnant and executed judgment on His enemies including the Babylonians who, 70 years earlier, were His great army to execute judgment on His apostate people.
The same will happen at the end of Christ's millennial reign and Gog's short season of tribulation will end with another day of the Lord when judgment is executed by He who has been given authority to execute judgment (John 5:27)
Observer wrote: Sorry to be off topic here. Don't y'all worry! I ain't staying! lol Just popping in, after a longish absence, to say hi to all you saints, especially folk that know me: Sisters Dorcas, Pen, Lady Virtue, Ladybug, Dolores, Mourner and SF from TX etc. And the brethren, too many to name, but some I just cannot help but name: John UK, Lurker, Frank, UPS, Christopher000, Michael Hranek, Shane|Socal, Mike|NY, GSTexas, Jim Lincoln etc. I hope that SteveR's not still a thorn in the flesh, or that if he is, the good Lord is sanctifying his presence to y'all. Praying for y'all regularly. God's richest blessings to each and every one of you.
Good to hear from you, brother.
I hope all is well with you and know you're in my thoughts and prayers often.
MG wrote: Lurker, may I ask what you mean by the danger to my eternal health? I certainly don't see anything I do as gaining eternal life by merit. I live to bring both glory to GOD to show my thankfulness for all He has done.
MG, What I mean is I can't, in good conscience, bid you God speed in your pursuit of pleasing God by observing parts of the Law of Moses. But in fairness to you, I am only aware that you observe Saturday Sabbath and some of the feasts. So, honestly, I can't say much not knowing much.
However, I will repeat what Paul said of the deeds of the law: (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; ). Now, I know you have a different interpretation of what Paul meant here but I must point out that he used the same language God used to warn Adam and Eve (Gen 3:3) not to eat the fruit (figure of deeds of the Sinai covenant) of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (figure of Sinai covenant).
1 John 3:16-24 tells us plainly what pleases God and what He requires of new covenant Christians.... the laws He promised to write on our hearts by the hearing of the gospel aka the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
MG wrote: Concerning 2 Cor 3, I'm still finding it hard to see the law being done away with. I can't see the law as being the "ministration of death" because Deuteronomy tells us that obedience to it brings LIFE! The problem is us! We are sinful. I'm thinking that this may instead be the curse of the law, where disobedience makes it a death sentence. Otherwise it's glorious (v9,11). The fact is it is even more glorious with what the messiah has done for us. We are changed from glory to glory (v18).
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: **for he is thy life**, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
See also Luke 10:25-28.
As for your first statement....
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Death and hell are the Sinai covenant. All who are in it are cast alive into the lake of fire at judgment. (See Is 28:16-19)
I appreciate you prior post. It's good to know you are still open to discussion and criticism because, quite frankly, the path you are pursuing is very dangerous to your eternal health.
GSTexas wrote: MG from the Land Down Under writes: 2 Cor 3 is talking about the "vail" or the glory being taken away - not the law! Re read the text and youll see it is speaking of the law. For example: 2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be DONE AWAY: 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. Verse 9 says that the ministration of condemnation was glory. The ministration of condemnation is obviously the law. So in verse 4 when it says "which glory was to be done away, it is speaking of the ministration of condemnation, or the law.
Exactly right, GS. MG just doesn't want to see it that way.
Btw, MG. The veil is figurative for the Law of Moses as well as the flesh of Jesus before Calvary as well as the veil of the temple which prevented the people from approaching the holiest of holies and the throne of grace.
See Is 25:7-8, 1 Cor 15:54, Heb 10:20, Mat 27:51, Eph 2:14, Col 2:14.
MG wrote: The law is integral to both covenants. The difference lies in the law being kept by the efforts of the flesh (Ishmael) vs the law being followed by transformed and redeemed people through the power of the Spirit (Isaac). It is flesh and legalism vs Spirit and faith. The law remains though, as Hebrews 10:16 reminds us. It doesn't give us eternal life, but it is the way of GOD's people.
MG, I can tell by your treatment of biblical texts that you have your mind made up about the Law of Moses being extant and binding and you interpret texts accordingly. Example:
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Apparently you understand "my laws" as the Law of Moses while most of the rest of us understand them to be love God and neighbor which is life.
Ask yourself, by what means did God write His laws, as you understand them, on the hearts of His people after He took salvation and the kingdom of God away from the Jews and gave them to Paul and the Gentiles? No vernacular bibles. No Pharisees to teach the law. Only Paul preaching Christ crucified.
Here's how He did it. Isaiah 52:7. The law of God is not the Law of Moses.
MG wrote: He never took the law away (Matthew 5), so I try to live the way He did. We all live - even today - in "the shadows". One day we will see Him as He truly is!
MG, I comment again out of concern. Yes, Jesus did take away the first covenant that He may establish the second, better, new covenant.
Zec 11:10-14 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (read the chapter)
Beauty (Zion) and Bands (Sinai) are the two covenants Paul spoke of in Gal 4:21-31. See also Deut 29-30.
Bottom line; Jesus came as the first covenant, nailed that which was against us to His cross and ascended to the Father as the new covenant.
Paul looked forward in the hope of the resurrection of the dead and the promise of eternal life.
Phl 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Both follow after the tribulation....
Dan 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
MG wrote: I believe Jesus came to the cross to take away the "Law of Sin and Death" (curse) upon our lives. This law is upon us because we have broken the Torah/law/instructions of our GOD.
I'm about to call it a night but briefly; the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2) is the same as the letter of the Sinai covenant which kills. The deeds of the law are sin because they lead one to establish their own righteousness at the rejection of God's righteousness; to wit... the Jews.
Jer 11:7-8 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, ***Obey my voice.*** (See Deut 30:19-20)
Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: ***therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant,*** (curse) which I commanded them to do; but they did them not.
The "words" or letter (2 Cor 3:6) is the curse and death and condemnation (2 Cor 3:7-9) which is why Paul wrote: "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not which all are to perish with the using) (Col 2:20-23)
MG wrote: .... However, we gentiles are so blessed because we can be grafted in and become part of the Commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians). The law remains then, does it not?! I believe so.
Some things to consider, MG.
Jesus was made of a woman, made under the law (Sinai covenant) to redeem those who were/are under law. Ask yourself.... redeem them from what? On the cross, Jesus took the letter aka curse of the law which kills (2 Cor 3:6) away in His own body (Col 2:14) leaving the righteousness of God aka the gospel and the "good" (see Matt 19:17) of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil aka the Sinai covenant.
So, no, the letter of the law does not remain for those who are in Christ. The letter of the law was the fault of the first covenant (Heb 8:8) which led to the better new covenant established on better promises (Heb 8:6). But the righteousness and fulfillment of the law, the gospel aka Christ crucified, remains....
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
.... and is the good works we are ordained to walk in (Eph 2:10, Heb 6:10).