John for Jesus wrote: I have a hard time believing mentally handicapped people or aborted babies all go to hell.
Knowing you have a mentally challenged child, I'll submit this post out of compassion for your concerns.
"In Adam all die...." Jesus, a mortal son of man, died, therefore His mortal body was in Adam until His resurrection (which is the subject of 1 Cor 15) so "thinking cap" is dead wrong where he wrote "It comes from being in Adam, something Christ was not but you are."
Jesus was made (in the womb) like unto His brethren, who were also in Adam:
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
It was not until after His death and resurrection to immortality (Heb 9:16-17) that He was made a quickening Spirit according to 1 Cor 15:45.
So...... if Adam's actual sin is imputed to all who are in Adam, it must have of necessity been imputed to Jesus the mortal son of man.
If you want to discuss further, put up your email address and I'll contact you but I'll not discuss it further here.
B. McCausland wrote: No problem, Lurker, about being quickened with Christ. Yes, the balm of love is shed in our hearts, but still there are a multitude of warnings all over the epistles against feeding the flesh.
Indeed there are many warnings. But here's the question.
Will knowledge of the Decalogue overcome the warnings? If you say yes... and you still hold to the Decalogue being written on hearts... why the warnings?
There is not one warning you can cite which is not overcome by this teaching of Jesus:
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Now I know that the sight of "commandments" will give you thoughts of Sinai in spite of my previous post but here are His commandments:
John 6:29 This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
B. McCausland wrote: Which law do you think God is speaking about here: "I will put *my law* in their inward parts and write it in their hearts Jer 31:33
I have asked repeatedly for something from scripture to establish the assertions here to no avail. Nothing but more unfounded assertions and rabbit trails. Actually, I understand because there is nothing in scripture to establish the assertions. Nothing. So, using the same standard, I'll answer your question.
The parable of the soils:
Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away **the word that was sown in their hearts**.
The soils are hearts. The seed is the Word (Logos) aka gospel. Logos is God, God is love, the HS is God. Therefore:
Rom 5:5 the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Hearts are quickened to love God, the outworking of faith.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Mortal bodies are quickened to love the brethren.
Love is the law of God, always has been, always will be.
B. McCausland wrote: 1. The mechanics how God writes the Decalogue are identical to the mechanics by which God gives a new heart, because they both come in a pack.
2) Which law do you think God is speaking about here: "I will put *my law* (towrah) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" Jer 31:33 2. Sorry you seem lost in the trail of thought.
1) A new heart and the Decalogue come in a pack? Another assertion with nothing to back it up. A quote from any NT text which timeline is after the NC promise would do wonders to bolster your assertion of what happens at conversion. Surely there is something. Perhaps you all need to consult your favorite commentators for help with this? Or is it that none of them actually put their doctrine to the test?
2) I'll get to that in due time. Right now I'm extending you the courtesy to defend your assertions.
3) Your trail was irrelevant to the subject at hand.
B. McCausland wrote: To wish to know the mechanics of how God creates a new heart is quite presumptions. The reason of your inquiry derives from a poor view of the plan of God as a whole;
I didn't ask for the mechanics of how God creates a new heart. I already know the answer for that. I asked for the mechanics of how God writes the Decalogue on hearts at conversion. This is the assertion made by June and affirmed by you.
If this assertion is true, it is reasonable to ask for something from scripture to establish it as true..... more specifically, something from scripture which would take place after the prophetic promise of Jer 31:31-34, upon which prophecy your assumption is imposed. If you can't produce such scriptural proof then the obvious conclusion is your assertion is false.
You and June ought to be thankful for a sparring partner with an opposing view. This give you opportunity to defend what you believe from a perspective you probably have not considered before. If it holds up, so much the better for you. If not, well that's between you and God.
As for the remainder of your comments, I'm not even going down that rabbit trail which wanders off into covenant theology and away from the task at hand.
JuneAnnette wrote: 1) The bible is the divinely inspired word of God. 2) The Holy Spirit engraves the "word of God" upon the soul of all those who are born again 3) and that includes the 10 commandments
Oh dear, June!
I suspect by now if I said the sky was blue you'd disagree. I'm not your enemy, June. We both love God and the brethren and that makes us brother and sister. Just think of me as a sparring partner whose sole intent is to get to the truth of this discussion.
1) I didn't say or imply the bible wasn't inspired by God. But the bible as we know it wasn't even canonized until close to the 5th century nor were the gospels even penned at the time they were spoken. So I really don't have a clue what your point was of quoting all those bible verses.
2) The Holy Spirit IS the Word of God.
3) An assertion yet to be established.
Scripture interprets scripture:
John 1:1 The Word (Logos) is God (Theos). 1 John 4:8 God (Theos) is love (Agape).
Romans 5:5 the love (agape) of God (theos) is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
This is the work of the Holy Spirit in conversion and is agreeable with your point 2 above. But point 3 needs a similar proof and that is what I have been asking for.
My question: How does God write the Decalogue on hearts at conversion?
B. McCausland wrote: 1) By creating in us a new heart and giving us his Spirit,
2) which makes us aware of his expressed will, and directs us to follow it.
Thanks for your reply,
1) Agree this is God's work at conversion.
2) I can agree with that too. But it doesn't answer how the Decalogue gets written on hearts at conversion. You assume His expressed will is contained in the Decalogue.
I'm asking for a biblical explanation of how the mechanics of God writing the Decalogue on hearts actually takes place and some sort of example from the Acts.
Repeating what I said to June. It is one thing to come up with a doctrine and it is another to put it to the test. If your assertions are biblical, there ought to be some evidence of it in practice in the early church age.
. . .
Respectfully, the biblical word "Word" has a distinct meaning. It comes from the Greek word Logos.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with Theos, and the Logos was Theos.
The Word is God, God is love. The Word is not the bible nor the Decalogue.
Just trying to be helpful. Btw, I'm no theologian or scholar either. Just a simple man who loves God
I'm neither impressed nor intimidated by such labels so if you and others find it useful in this discussion; by all means continue.
Regarding your comment:
"extensive biblical proof has been provided throughout the thread against the issue."
So far "proof" seems to be absent from the arguments and commentaries posted here. All of the supposed proof I've seen so far comes from biblical texts with contested interpretations. I rather think you mean "opinions".
That said, sister June has yet to respond to my previous post. I understand we all have time constraints and a life besides posting on SA. However, if you'd care to respond to that post...........
JuneAnnette wrote: The commandments which were at the first engraven on tablets of stone are now engraved upon the fleshly tables of our hearts (Heb. 10:16) This lies at the very heart of conversion.
For the sake of argument, let's assume you are right here.
The prophetic promise was God would write His laws on hearts of flesh. You rightly conclude this happens at conversion. However, you assume those laws mean the Decalogue.
Peter was the apostle to the Jews and later Paul was called to be the apostle to the Gentiles.
Considering the very first conversions at Pentecost; the promise of "another Comforter" was first fulfilled. Assuming your assertion above is true, there must be a logical explanation, and some scriptural support from the early church age in the Acts, for how your assertion was actually accomplished by God. The same must be true for all of Paul's conversions and beyond to this day.
It is one thing to assemble a doctrine and swear to it but it is another to put it to the test to see if it floats or sinks. The indwelling Holy Spirit was and remains the promise. How does God write the Decalogue on hearts at conversion?
JuneAnnette wrote: The commandments which were at the first engraven on tablets of stone are now engraved upon the fleshly tables of our hearts (Heb. 10:16-17)
Oh my, June!
You didn't learn that from God and you certainly didn't learn that from 2 Cor 3.....
Gal 4:23ff But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory...
For those who are not into allegories, the daughters of Sarah are the Lamb's bride aka children of promise while the daughters of the bondwoman are cast out.
Ps 132:13-16 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
(The Psalms are more than just a songbook.)
For those dull of hearing because you've filled your heads with the doctrines of men; God the Father doesn't sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in stony hearts which is a figure of all things Sinai. The new fleshy heart is a figure of Zion, the eternal habitation of the Holy Spirit.
Antinomianism? It doesn't surprise me that man made labels would eventually come out. Typical for those who can't defend what they believe from the bible.
JuneAnnette wrote: Christ did not abrogate the Law; He showed that true observance must include internal as well as external obedience.
External obedience. I wonder how this is possible in light of:
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ...
What's dead to the law? Surely not the soul. What else? The body... flesh?
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Yes, of course. So if the body is dead because Christ resides in the soul, how can there be "external obedience"? A dead body can do nothing until it is quickened by the HS (Rom 8:11) to the good works we are ordained to walk in. What are these good works? The only thing in the Sinai covenant, under which the body is subjected, which gives life to the flesh; love thy neighbor as thyself (Lev 19:18). God is love... the HS is God.
The first covenant promises were conditioned on the obedience of the people. The new covenant promise is conditioned on the obedience of Jesus Christ.
The problem with looking to the Decalogue as a rule of life for believers is their eyes are set on death and condemnation rather than on the life and obedience of Jesus Christ.
Kev wrote: Hey Lurker I'm sure you may know what I'm getting to with this....
Two things prevent access to the whole counsel of God..... an absurdly literal interpretation and tradition.
Unless we are able to translate the shadows, figures and types into their spiritual realities, we deny ourselves access to the depth and majesty of God's whole counsel.
An example from my earlier post:
Amos 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David...
"In that day" What day? Day of the Lord. When did it commence? Any way to know? Sure there is.
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David...
When God turned to the Gentiles in mercy beginning with Paul's calling. Did Paul die by the sword? Sure, when the commandment came (Rom 7:9). The whole of Rom 7 Paul discusses what happened to him when the Amos prophecy came to pass but it remains hidden in plain sight because of the hermeneutics and tradition of men
JuneAnnette wrote: I have amended my comment once again . .
Perhaps it would help us to understand your point if you made a point. No one likes to run into a dark alley.
Personally, I fail to see the correlation between your assertion that the Decalogue is binding on Christians as a rule of moral conduct and sodomites who will not inherit the promise of eternal life. They will be judged by means of God's standard, the Decalogue, on the last day and cast into the lake of fire. Same as Belshazzar being weighed in the balances (Dan 5:27), just different figures of the same spiritual reality. God's glittering sword will be drawn from its sheaf at the appointed time and quite frankly, it's not ours to touch or handle..... evidenced by the fact He sealed it (the two tables of stone) in the ark and sat on it.
JuneAnnette wrote: I wonder what the Christians posting posting here, most notably those who view the law of God as no longer "binding", believe regarding sodomy ... and what Scriptures they would cite to support their beliefs.
God will reward them according to their deeds on judgment day.
Deut 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword and mine hand take hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to mine enemies and will reward them that hate me.
The glittering sword is a figure of the Decalogue.
Amos 9:10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
The sword is wielded during the day of the Lord aka judgment day.
Jer 46:9 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour
It is drawn from its sheath during the day of the Lord:
Ezek 21:28-30 The sword is drawn: for the slaughter it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering: Shall I cause it to return into his sheath? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created....
Rev 14:7 Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come.
Fear God, not His sword. He will draw it from its sheath in His time.
B. McCausland wrote: Lurker Frankly, if you read the passage at face value, one can not see such things as you take from it. It might seem simple to you that the two staves figure the two covenants, Sinai and Zion, but this interpretation is superimposed.
I've been down this same path regarding Zech 11 many times in the past with others married to covenant theology so your deflection and denial of the obvious comes as no surprise. Of course you can't accept the obvious sense of the prophecy. It doesn't fit in your theology. I get it.
Your reaction simply confirms what I already knew about you and your camp.
B. McCausland wrote: Beauty and Band here were *staves*, which speak of shepherding, See v.7: "I fed the flock". The first has the idea of 'delight in'; the second of 'attachment to' separating Judah from Israel (v.14)
Zech 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Seems simple enough to me. The two staves figure the two covenants, Sinai and Zion, (Gal 4:24-26) and God gave them the very fitting names of Beauty and Bands.
But then I'm not joined at the hip to a system of theology which will crumble under its own weight if the truth of this prophecy gets out.
B. McCausland wrote: The passage in Zec. has to do with a particular regarding Israel's discipline
Zech 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder,
***that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.***
God broke both covenants and both were the body and soul of Jesus. But He specifically called out beauty, the covenant of peace He gave to Levi (Mal 2:5) as the covenant He made with all the people spelled out in Deut 29-30. Imagine that. No mention of bands (Sinai covenant)being made with all the people.
Your intentional distortion and disregard of the truth of this prophecy causes neither me nor my view any harm. It stands as written by God. But I'd suggest you be very careful mangling God's words to cause them to conform to your fatally flawed covenant theology. You will have to give account one day.
JuneAnnette wrote: The ceremonial/sacraficial laws were done away with in Christ. How beautiful are these precious gospel truths set forth in the book of Hebrews, where there are many references to the Levitical law ! Those who will carefully and prayerfully read God's Word, as it is found in the book of Hebrews, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, will soon discover that Christ is the substance of that which was prefigured in the priesthood of Aaron which was ordained of God under the Mosaic Law, as it is set forth in Exodus, Chapters 28, 29, 30 and enlarged upon in the book of Leviticus. This is what Christ meant when HE said that HE came to â€śfulfill the lawâ€ť. (Matt. 5:17)
Not looking to re-enter this discussion but your comment raises questions for me.
In Zechariah 11:7-14, God said He would break His entire covenant figured by Beauty (Zion covenant of peace) and Bands (Sinai Covenant of wrath and death)...... not just the ceremonial laws. Verses 12-13 are informative to determine the timeline of the fulfillment of this prophecy. Verse 14 obviously took place at Calvary. This ties in with Heb 8:13 and Col 2:14.
How do you reconcile this with the last sentence from your quote or that only the sacrificial law was taken away?