Observer wrote: Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free woman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the free woman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Would anyone have derived this from reading the OT passage and if not why not?
Good point, bro.
Another which this text brings to mind. Most say there was no law before the exodus from Egypt. Yet Hagar is a figure of the Sinai covenant. How could this be if the law didn't exist in Abraham's day? And then there was Abraham's circumcision in the flesh. Circumcision (flesh and heart) brought the circumcised under the bond and yoke of the two covenants. If the two covenants didn't exist in Abraham's day... to what end was he circumcised?
I know you know these things, brother, but I often wonder why so many just go with their denotational flow never taking the time to search for answers.
MS wrote: Aye yai yai brother Lurker I do have exactly those same memories, except our phone was a big black rotary one on the wall,party line and all the neighbors listening in. I still have my dear mom with us, so I will remind her of those days. Thanks for the trip down memory lane. Yes how far our nation and sadly some of my own children have fallen from God. Trust all is well with you and yours. Every blessing.
"Aye yai yai....."
Now there is an expression I haven't heard for years. Thanks for more fond memories.
MS wrote: I love my flip phone, and my first generation iPad. That's about as techie as I get...
Same here sister.... the flip phone, that is. I'm just too old to endure the learning curve of a smart phone. Besides, I don't think I'd like a phone that's smarter than me.
I remember as a kid our phone was a wooden box hung on the wall, an adjustable mic to speak into and an earpiece about four inches long with a cloth covered cable. We had a party line and all the neighbors listened in which really made my mother mad. You probably have similar memories.
How far we have come in my lifetime but how far this nation has fallen away from God.
John UK wrote: Good morning bro and thanks for your post, I'm still working on the first point. You know what they say, "Them that work slowest work deepest". Yes, it is very clear that God has left J4 in a very darkened state, I would even call it spiritual death. He has the scriptures before his eyes, but he is blind to the meaning of them. Many have sought to help him from drowning, but he turns the lifeboat away, believing it to be an evil spirit. What a terrible state every sinner is in by nature
Hello dear brother,
I meant to reply sooner but time has been short. I think we're in agreement and I want to leave it at that. Some posters simply need our prayers so, if it be God's will, they can share the same joy and real assurance Christ has graciously given to all His sheep......
I debated whether I should use the covenants to demonstrate the point, but decided against it for 2 reasons: 1. Some get confused by covenants (for example Jim Linkson) 2. I didn't want Mr Linkson to go into over drive with his posting links to Dispensations vs Covenants sites But I see now that 1) doesn't matter and 2) happened anyways. Lol BTW Good advice to bro Kev. Blessings bro!
Nice to hear from you. Also was nice to read your multi-part post yesterday. Spot on.
There are a multitude of ways to expose J4J's errors and all should be brought to the fore. Those with eyes to see will agree and those who don't won't. It's that simple.
As for Kev...... no doubt he has learned a lot because of this discussion but there comes a time when it is best to call it quits. Continuing just provides a platform for J4J to continue wreaking violence on the precious truths of the bible which is really sickening.
That said, I am convinced J4J really and truly believes what he sets forth. And that is what tells me he has never been called in mercy to this day. And for that he needs our prayers...... not our scorn which is so easy to do, especially for me.
First covenant: Duet 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
New covenant: Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart...
What does a circumcised heart do?
... love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Loves God that it may live. By what means?
Gal 3:11 The just shall live by faith.
One doesn't need a doctorate in divinity to connect the dots. Faith loves and believes God...... one and the same.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
What are His commandments?
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
This is the result of a heart circumcised by God by means of grace:
1 Tim 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus..
Faith and love fulfills both commandments and is the righteousness of Jesus Christ written on our hearts.
Kev, I'd encourage you to wind up your discussion with J4J. His assurance is in his freewill decision and as long as God leaves him in that darkened state there is nothing you can do to change it. His heart hasn't been circumcised yet.
Kev wrote: Thanks Lurker thanks for letting me know it has been going on for years. I know exactly what you mean he does know how to do exactly like you said. I have noticed it to a tee. Yes only God can make one see no matter how clear I think it is. Thanks Brother.
You're welcome, brother.
I want you to seriously think about the covenants, study the difference between the old and new, and lock it in. J4J has tried to pull the wool over your eyes, as well as others, by pulling from first covenant writings to defend a NC spin. Don't let him get away with it. It's intellectually dishonest and a means to pervert the truth for us in the NC age. Anyone who is willing to do this, to spin the truth into a knot for the sake of his own error, is not a brother of mine. Christ, and Him crucified, is our obedience and our righteousness. We bring nothing to Him but shame for our disobedient past which He freely pardons for those He calls effectually.
Kev wrote: 1. There you go mixing God's command and man's responsibility with the sovereign work of God.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. J4J is a hopeless case unless God opens his mind. Several of us here have gone round and round with him in years gone by and it's always the same. He has become very proficient at spinning any one verse to make it conform to his theology and ignoring that which backs him into a corner. His motivation is fueled by a hatred for Calvinism rather than a love of the truth.
That said; here is something to keep in mind which J4J is willfully ignorant of.
The first covenant was conditioned on the obedience of the people, Israel. Sure it's easy to go back in the prophets and historical books and say..... see, here is freewill. Or here is God pleading with His people to return to Him as though He was servant to them.
But, not so in the NC. The new covenant is conditioned on the obedience of the Son (the better promise spoken of in Hebrews) and the mercy of the Father. Period.
When this is held up as a biblical truth, which it is, everything else is brought to naught.
John for JESUS wrote: Jeremiah 18:6â€-â€¬10 NKJV If the vessel of dishonor turns from its evil, God will make it a vessel of honor.
Jeremiah wrote to the Jews. Did the Jewish nation turn from its evil? No. God cast them off into Babylon and brought forth a remnant in mercy after 70 years.
You are attempting to justify free will theism in the NC age, where God said I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy, with a first covenant promise of life, blessings and an inheritance in exchange for obedience to His covenant commands.
1 Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Did Paul have a choice on Damascus Road? Did the Potter refashion (new birth) him into a vessel of honor in spite of himself?
John for JESUS wrote: The earth is the Lord â€™s, and all its fullness, The world and those who dwell therein. Psalms 24:1 NKJV Also, a dictionary.
Let's see now......
Is 13:1 The burden of Babylon....
13:11 And I will punish the ~world~ for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Same Hebrew word "tebel" translated "world" as your Psalm quote points to Babylon, not the entire planet and all inhabitants thereof. In other places it points to the Promised Land, Jerusalem, etc. In no case does it point to the entire planet except in your fertile imagination.
Also, the Hebrew word "tebel" translated "world" is feminine gender while the Greek word "kosmos" translated "world" is masculine gender. The gender confusion demands they are not the same no matter how diligently you try to spin it.
A dictionary? Now that's a novel idea. Which Holy Spirit inspired dictionary would you suggest? I know.......
Matt 13:38 The field is the world.....
Why is it, J4J, you do everything in your power to spin John 3:16 to your taste EXCEPT look to God's HS inspired word?
s c wrote: I was responding to U S' question as to why one pales as a credible witness when wearing a swimsuit if you hadn't been so quick to chime in. Eager beavers,you are. Lurker,you misjudge me as well.
How did I get involved in this? I haven't spoken a word to you in at least 6 months. However, I would say you need to abstain from the pickles. Perhaps your disposition would sweeten up a little.
Kev wrote: The smooth stone is shaped by the water/word I know you know Brother thanks for the help I didn't notice until you pointed it out but soon as you pointed it out a lot of pieces of the puzzle fell in place. Thanks for the help brother I really like that you are very wise thanks for the help. all you guys are my mentors and iron sharpens iron. Thanks Brother. Ephesians 5:26 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, You have a good day to Lurker thanks.
The word is Logos. Logos is Theos aka God. (John 1) The Holy Spirit (God) does fall as the rain and flow as a fountain of life but there is a difference between the upper waters and the lower waters (Gen 1) from which John baptized and stones are worn smooth.
Anyway, I'm not trying to teach a lesson but rather to stimulate constructive thought. There must be an objective biblical reason for the things we believe. The literal hermeneutic is almost completely subjective (the reader decides, not God, what is literal and what is figurative).
Kev wrote: I like that Lurker, like you said if stones meant nothing why then are they commanded to not shape the stones when: Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it. Just stones I think there is more to it than that Jim like Lurker said. Matthew 3:9 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Raising the Body of Christ with stones not shaped with human hands.
Good points, Kev.
Now, since you see the absurdity of a rigid literal interpretation...... I challenge you to learn the spiritual reality of a smooth stone. A smooth stone from a stream is worn smooth from the flowing water so the flowing water of a river must also be a figure of a spiritual reality...... enter John Baptist. What was the spiritual reality of John's baptism in the River Jordan?
Back to Jim's quote..... sometimes I rather enjoy him posting up the ignorance of some of his heroes..... it gives opportunity to stimulate the grey matter of those who exercise it.
Btw, sister Penned and Penelope are one and the same.
Jim Lincoln wrote: 1 Samuel 17:40--"And he (David) took his staff in his hand, and chose five smooth stones out of the brook, and put them in a shepherd's bag which he had." What is the meaning of these five smooth stones? Imagine one preacher saying, "These five smooth stones symbolize faith, hope, love, joy, peace." This could make a nice five point sermon outline. According to the allegorical method, it is the pure imagination of the interpreter that determines the meaning of the text. A person can make it mean whatever he or she wants it to mean. Ask a dispensationalist what the five smooth stones signify and he would say something like this: "The five smooth stones were just what the text says they were. They were five smooth stones, only one of which was used by David in his sling!"
Is 57:6 Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort in these?
Smooth stones are figures of a spiritual reality, Jim. Not only here but wherever they are mentioned. It's our job to learn what that spiritual reality is.
Good thing one's eternal fate stands on the doctrine of justification and not one's hermeneutic.
Now Jim, why would I waste any time reading Ice when he doesn't even know the Jews are descendants of the tribe of JUDAH with Benjamin absorber into them? At least JMac got that right.
Btw, the sealing of the 144,000 is also pictured in Ezek 9. Can your heroes reconcile the two texts?
And what of the millions of professing Jews who have perished in unbelief these past 2,000 years? Did God love Jacob or not? Die He lie? If no, then these are not Jews but do lie. Rather they are of the synagogue of Satan.
Kev wrote: Jim I won't discus this if it makes you mad and you say if what you believe is not the way I see it then it makes God a liar. NT V def. Jew please.
Jim is just a parrot for his heroes Ice, Rugh and JMac. It's painfully obvious that no one has ever taught Jim that the Jews represent just two tribes (Judah and Benjamin) of Jacob's 12 sons. Remember God said "Jacob I loved" yet the dispys would have God forgetting about or breaking His promise to the northern kingdom aka the house of Israel led by Ephraim......... the so called ten lost tribes. So the Son lost a large portion of the people the Father gave Him and commanded He lose none (John 6:39).
Don't have room to post it but here is the prophecy commencing at verse 15:
Here is an informative prophecy about Ephraim: Jer 31:18-20.
Sound a little like Paul on Damascus Road (1 Tim 1:12-17)? It should but the dispys can't see it. The literal hermeneutic has covered their eyes and ears so they look to these Christ hating Jews in the ME and exalt them above God fearing Christians with no answer for the question: If they be God's chosen people, why did He allow millions to die in unbelief these past 2,000 years?
Allow me to build on James's very instructive quotations. J4J will say his faith is his own and has no merit. Many of the reformed persuasion will say that faith is simply a conduit to apprehend the righteousness of Christ. In essence, they agree with the freewill camp. But the verse James quoted above says faith purified the hearts of the house of Cornelius. Everyone needs to think on that. A purified heart by means of faith. Purified from what? Sin? Doesn't this agree with justified by faith?
Most will say that the grace of God is unmerited favor. I agree but what does this favor consist of? Paul tells us:
1 Tim 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
The subject of the verse is the grace of God. There is no other way to read it than to understand that the faith and love of (which is in) Christ is God's grace. There is no one else in view. Grace is also defined as the gift:
Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Therefore, those who say their faith is their own, a product of logic, has no merit, are only fooling themselves.