It appears J4J is attempting to link the ethnic seed of Abraham to the covenant promises to the exclusion of the spiritual seed of Abraham (Christians). But the bible doesn't make the distinction he holds anywhere. The biblical distinction is between those in the flesh (first man Adam) and those in the spirit (last man Adam). J4J's problem is rooted in an absurdly literal hermeneutic.
Perhaps he will provide an exposition rather than just launch a verse and expect us to understand what he sees in it.
James Thomas wrote: I know it is a different way to understand what is being said. Looking at the group of 6 though...they are not just for the people group that Daniel was originally praying for but "The plan of redemption".
James, Thanks for the explanation. However, it presupposes the seventy weeks are historical beginning circa 516 BCE in that Calvary is future to the vision revealed to Daniel.
The possibility that the 70 year captivity and the 70 weeks was given as a pattern for a future event is off the table and the problems we discussed earlier, such as the 2000 year gap, are back on the table.
Your comment: "Other renderings of 9:24 have "sealing up the sins" which conveys the same meaning in the "to seal up the vision and prophecy" To end, to finish."
This is understandable considering the translators of the many different versions all held to a historical hermeneutic. Another example is the punctuation in the seventy weeks (KJV) was placed to make it appear the first 7 and the 62 weeks are one period of time so the appearing of Messiah comes at the end of the 69th week. But if the punctuation is removed (not in the original language anyway), Messiah appears at the beginning of the 62 weeks.
John for JESUS wrote: Sinful men divorce their wives and get back with them later, I know God can do the same and will.
God put away a cheating wife and remarried one who would ever be faithful. His first wife was in Adam; His last wife is in Christ. His first wife was a harlot; His last wife is a new creation.
That God remarried a remnant He had put away, didn't remarry the majority he put away but cast them into hell and married a great multitude no man could number, who was not formerly His wife, is secondary to the fact that His new wife is a new creation in Christ.
Yet you would judge a Christian man who would do the same a sinner.
OK, bro James. Don't let these counterpoints be a distraction to your presentation. I'd only ask we keep them open, as opposed to settled, and if we agree on the larger picture these points will most likely become clear at that time.
God bless, James. Looking forward to your next installment..... at your convenience, of course.
No hurry here either. Understanding and discussing the prophets has been my hearts burning desire since God called me.
"Your people - Who is this? All Israel."
To me, 'your people' refers to the Jews who were about to be redeemed from captivity but not the house of Israel. The reason I say that is because one of the 6 items which was revealed and would remain until the last day is 'seal up the vision and prophecy'. Of course, this assumes the vision and prophecy refers to the book of life which is opened at the 7th trump and at the great white throne judgment.
"To seal both vision and prophecy - 1 Peter 1:10-12"
I don't see the connection to the text. I believe the book of life is simply another of many figures of the covenant of grace aka Zion and all who dwell therein. (See Psalm 132:13-18). The Jews were confined in unbelief (Sinai Covenant, circumcision) when God turned His mercy to the Gentiles and were commanded to remain in the state of circumcision they were called in (1 Cor 7:17-24). Doesn't mean they are not in Christ... just not the covenant of grace. They are to remain in that state till the mystery of God is finished (Rev 10:7) when the veil is destroyed and death is swallowed up in victory (Is 25:7-8).
John for JESUS wrote: If I am blinded, it's not to the fact that divorce is wrong most of the time and remarriage after divorce is always wrong.
Careful J4J. You don't want to be found guilty of saying to God... Isa 65:5 Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou.
House of Israel: Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
House of Judah: Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away?
John for JESUS wrote: Lurker... I always thought we would live in the New Jerusalem.
Me too. But you said Israel would inherit the promises of both covenants.
Abraham is my father. I am a child of promise as was Isaac. I am a citizen of the commonwealth of Israel made near by the blood of Christ. I am Christ's brother therefore Abraham's seed and heir of every covenant promise God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
So why can't I have a piece of the real estate God promised to them?
Not sure I understand what this has to do with the rapture discussion.
Not fair. Abraham is my father too so why shouldn't I, and all real Christians for that matter, be entitled to inherit a dusty piece of RE in the Middle East?
Jim Lincoln wrote: No, Lurker the Abraham's promise was unconditional, no matter what the Jews did or didn't do--- "The OT establishes the following: I. The Abrahamic covenant was unconditional (Gen.15), could not be broken, and was permanent.
Gen 15 is a preview of what is further detailed in Gen 17, Jim. All summed up, God called it an everlasting covenant and it was indeed conditional established by the fact that Israel broke the everlasting covenant (Is 24:5) therefore God broke the same covenant (Zech 11:10-14) and established a new and better covenant in Christ crucified and risen. No one, Jew or Gentile, will see God face to face outside that new and better covenant.
penned wrote: Lurker, you know the funny thing is, we are trying to lead them to the Lamb's Supper and they are holding on to pictures and shadows and resent the fact we would try to take the pictures and shadows away.
Ironic, isn't it? I used to have a hard time with such but have come to accept that God will set it all in order in His time.
pennned wrote: Lurker, you've made a fine point. there is one people Jew and Gentile.. a holy nation a peculiar people a royal priesthood and I would encourage any person of Jewish heritage to read Isaiah 53 and ask them, is there anything besides tradition that is stopping them from turning to Jesus Christ, the Messiah of the world who came to us through the Jews? But even they must repent. To teach anything else is to put the curtain in the temple right back up and reverse the work of the Holy Spirit to bring a people together. What is this wind that has come upon the church that insists on dividing what GOd has joined together according to His lovingkindness and eternal purposes?
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby
Its amazing how doctrines of men (Israel and church are separate) can perfectly blind people
James Thomas wrote: verse 24- Seventy sevens are decreed about your people and your holy city He is answering Daniel about Verse 17 (make your face to shine upon your sanctuary, which is desolate.) Your people - Daniel's people he was praying about....All Israel. your holy city - Jerusalem These Daniel was praying for specifically. Then God reveals His purpose for eternity on what He is going to do. to finish the transgressin - to put an end to sin - and to atone for iniquity - to bring in everlasting righteousness- to seal both vision and profit - and to anoint a most Holy one. - Will continue tomorrow Lord willing.
Good so far. Continuing tomorrow will be fine although I may not be able to interact post at a time. But continue anyway, as time permits, and I'll catch up if need be.
I should mention that Ezekiel 37-39 is a concurrent prophecy with the 70 weeks. I don't know if you've considered it but if not you may want to review the text noting that there is a gathering of all Israel, a period of relative peace, another scattering of Israel into captivity and finally the destruction of Gog and everlasting peace.
James Thomas wrote: This is not Daniel speaking here. We are in effect standing by Daniel listening too, as we read these words. No real objections have appeared as of yet into what you have presented from what I can see. ....24-27 next.
You've summed up well God's mind through v23. And yes, Gabriel was sent to answer Daniel's prayers and more which he didn't appeal for.... a peak at what was in store for his people until the end of days.
James Thomas wrote: Lurker, I have followed your words and read the texts and have seen how the pattern fits. I can see the flaw of having simply a historical view of Scripture as well. In short, I see your view and would say it is one I could agree with.
Perfect, James. All I hope for is an open mind.
James Thomas wrote: But please allow me to express some possible questions by going through Daniel 9. So in trying to understand the verses in Daniel 9:24-27..im going to start at 9:1 with a focus on identifying what "we know" then work to what we don't. Please call me out on anything that you see differently. Verse 1-2 Daniel speaks on reading Jeremiah and perceiving a time defined as seventy years before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem. The subject being the end of the desolations. The time being 70 years. It happened with the end of captivity so this was not "The end" to desolations in all of eternity but in the current one. So far so good? verse 3-19 in next post.
Good so far. The desolations was specific to Jerusalem during the captivity and would end when captivity was led captive.
John for JESUS wrote: Hosea? Isn't he the guy that was married to a whore, but was not allowed to leave her? Picture of God with Israel? Hmm.
Looking for the relevance of Hosea to the discussion?
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, **Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?** As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. **Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.** (Quoted from Hosea)
But it doesn't matter. If you want to ignore God's word and continue passing judgment on those who remarry after a biblically lawful divorce, by all means do so. But I doubt you'll find an audience here. You're steadfast rejection of scripture which doesn't fit your presuppositions has been perfectly demonstrated.
From the article: Rhodes noted that some Christians reject his more literal view and take a more allegorical approach to prophecy. He specifically addressed Ezekiel 36, noting that the book covers the restoration of Israel â€” something that he said didnâ€™t unfold until the 20th century.
â€śItâ€™s interesting to me that the ancient prophet would say Israel [would be] born again as a nation after being dispersed for a long, long time. Itâ€™s never happened before 1948 â€” thatâ€™s when that began happening.â€ť (Author and biblical expert Dr. Ron Rhodes)
Hmmm. Isn't it interesting that a "biblical expert" can read Ezekiel chapter 36 and fail to perceive that the prophet is talking about the house of Israel aka the ten northern tribes?
And isn't it interesting that he fails to perceive the house of Israel was gathered to their inheritance at the same time as the house of Judah as one nation in the hand of God (Ezek 37:15-28) and that gathering took place at a resurrection of just and unjust, day of the Lord's vengeance and judgment (Ezek 37:13)?
And isn't it interesting that this resurrection, day of the Lord, judgment and gathering of the tribes of Jacob actually took place upon Paul's calling and not 1948?
OOS, if interested: Source prophecy Isaiah 49:6, fulfillment Acts 13:4.
Also, I've read Romans and it still says God has not replaced Israel.
Changing the subject?
You dogmatically maintain it is a sin for one who has divorced to remarry under any circumstances. I said God did exactly that in that He put away both houses of Israel that He may take another wife from among the Gentiles. You see, J4J, both houses of Israel became Gentiles when God put them away (House of Israel Jer 3:8, House of Judah Is 50:1) and their circumcisions became uncircumcision (Rom 2:25) which is the definition of a Gentile (Eph 2:11). Jacob's seed was not God's wife until called in mercy, by the gospel, in the new and better covenant along with Gentiles who were/are not of Jacob's seed (Rev 7:9).
Hos 1:9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
There are not 2 peoples of God but one espoused to Christ our husband, brother and new covenant; the Israel of God (Gal 6:16).