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News Item12/19/14 12:29 PM
Lurker  Protected NameFind all comments by Lurker
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John UK wrote:
Saint Lurker, thanks for the extra scriptures and greek concerning the thrones, it's very interesting. I just wish I had more brainpower to take it all in and work it all out. Them Revelations sure are cloudy. I used to try the commentaries to see if they would help, but it seems theologians had a hard time of it as well, some saying that it had all come to pass already. Could it be?
Full preterism? Built on the assumption everything was fulfilled 70 AD. If that be true, then the proponents should be able to write entire books explaining how and when all the mysterious events of the Revelation were fulfilled in historic reality. They should be able to identify all the mysterious figures and match them up with 1st century AD realities. I'm not aware of any such books.

Anyway, the reason I replied to your question was I had just read the Revelation the evening before and it was fresh in my mind. And, of course, Steve's egging me on prompted me to look into the idea you posted about the 24 elders and I'm glad I did. I needed to work that through anyway.

Why was the seals on the book removed? "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God".

The Lamb was worthy being the only one to fulfill the law.


News Item12/18/14 9:45 PM
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John UK wrote:
The 24 elders: seeing as the New Jerusalem had 12 foundations of apostles and twelve walls of 12 tribes of Israel, I thought the elders might be figurative for these 24.
I've seen that interpretation and it sounds reasonable but reasonable is not necessarily biblical.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The word "seat" used to describe the 24 seats of the elders is actually the same Greek word for throne. So there is a cross reference which accounts for 12 of the 24 elders being the apostles so by good and necessary consequence, I can see that the other 12 elders would be the heads of the tribes of Israel based on Rev 21:12-14.

The only question remaining; is the timeline of Rev 4 compatible with "the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory"?

Rev 5:11 (before the 1st seal was opened) "the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" compared to Daniel 7:10 (same wording) and 7:13-14 son of man receiving the kingdom of God....... I'd say yes.


News Item12/18/14 3:38 PM
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SteveR wrote:
Good Morning Lurker
Helen Keller and Observer could have offered John UK similar responses. OK, Perhaps Im exaggerating about Observer.
Dont you think you should answer the original question? Dont get me wrong, Im glad John UK woke you up from your slumber. But you need to answer who the elders and creatures are, and why they are worshipping in the manner they are.

I believe I did answer the original question, Steve. What do you think, John? Did I answer your question?

John seemed to think the crowns implied post resurrection probably because of 2 Tim 4:8 but that wouldn't answer the crowns on the heads of locusts (Rev 9:7), the 7 heads of the dragon (Rev 12:3) or the 10 crowns on the 10 horns of the sea beast (Rev 13:1). Crowns don't always imply victory over death.

As far as the identity of the 24 elders, I honestly don't know. If you can help both John and me out with that, I'm open for instruction.


News Item12/18/14 3:00 PM
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John UK wrote:
Thanks Lurker. I'm in the Revelations on my daily readings, and it never fails to make my head spin.
I remember the first time I read the Revelation...... when I got to the end my thoughts were 'Is that all there is?'

One thing I'd pass on for your benefit..... the book sealed with 7 seals. What is it? A tiny but important clue:

Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne **a book written within and on the backside**, sealed with seven seals.

Ezek 2:9-10 And when I looked, behold, an hand was sent unto me; and, lo, a roll of a book was therein; And he spread it before me; **and it was written within and without**: and there was written therein lamentations, and mourning, and woe.

Exo 32:15 (ESV) Then Moses turned and went down from the mountain with the two tablets of the testimony in his hand, **tablets that were written on both sides; on the front and on the back they were written.**

(I normally quote from the KJV but in this case the ESV gives a clearer rendering which is consistent with the other texts.)

When all the seals were opened, the judgment of the first resurrection was set (Daniel 7:10, Rev 19). (Note Dan 7:11-12 corresponds with Rev 19:20.)

Good reading, brother.


News Item12/18/14 12:19 PM
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John UK wrote:
Revelation 4:8-11 KJV

Does anyone know if this passage is referring to a time after the resurrection, seeing as these twenty four elders appear to have been resurrected and received their crowns?

Before the resurrection, John.

The first clue is "and is to come" (Rev 4:8).

While the Revelation is not chronological beginning to end, chapters 4-6 are. So observe at the opening of the 5th seal.......

Rev 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The souls and innocent blood of God's people had not yet been avenged. Now scroll forward to the first resurrection.......

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

See also Rev 20:4 for the resurrection of the souls under the altar...... same as those mentioned in 19:2.


News Item12/7/14 5:32 PM
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Frank wrote:
1) I like your edit and I agree. If someone disagrees with me about the perfection of Christ, they are not a heretic. Is that what you meant.

2) Who said there were any perfect preachers, including Paul?

3) Who said they disagreed with our heavenly Father as to how He builds His church?

4) I don't know whether or not folks were saved at BG crusades. What does that have to do with it?

5) If someone was saved at a Joel Osteen crusade, would you say the same thing?

6) But, I do appreciate your kindness, but I think we should stick to BG and what he said.

1) Not what I meant but now you've got the hang of a straw man.

2 & 3) Didn't imply anyone did..... just making a point.

4) I should have everything to do with it, brother. Yes, this thread has been filled with quotes from BG which reveal his errors and I don't discount a one of them...... not one and I thank Ladybug an others who posted them up. But, if all we can find to talk about BG is his errors with no mention of the souls he may have been party to leading to Christ, well......

5) I'd praise God. How about you?

6) No problem. Carry on.


News Item12/7/14 3:44 PM
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Btw, Frank. A straw man argument is a misrepresentation of an opponents position. If you can find an example of me doing that, please post it up.

Blessings to you and yours.

Edit: Bro. Frank. As you know for many the term heretic is anyone who doesn't agree with me. So if you would care to put up a biblical definition of a heretic I would be glad to answer.

Michael: I happen to believe many souls have eventually come to Christ by way of BG's crusades so, even though he owns many errors, I refuse to cast a stone. Far be it from me to dictate to God how He calls His own. Who can point out a perfect preacher in this late age of apostasy? Even Paul had a thorn in his flesh.


News Item12/7/14 3:29 PM
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Frank wrote:
I don't have a clue whether or not God has saved anyone in a BGEC. What does that have to do with it??? This is not about God, but BG and his heresy.
Balance, brother. Trying to point out that BG could neither help or hurt anyone apart from the will of God.

To me its always about God and in this case whether He used BG for His purpose or not hence, my questions.

Also, you will notice I never once defended BG's methods or errors and we all know they are many...... not arguing that.

That said, if this discussion is all about picking the flesh off the carcass of BG, I'm outta here. I've got enough of my own shortcomings to deal with and God will deal with all that in his time.


News Item12/7/14 2:39 PM
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Excerpt wrote:
From the Free Presbyterian Church website:
"Dr. Graham uses a deceptive fundamental terminology which is acceptable to liberals, Roman Catholics, and pagans alike. It is suspect and does not mean what the Bible means. It is this that makes Dr. Graham's ministry so dangerous. In this pamphlet Billy Graham and his liberal friends will speak for themselves. It will be for you, the reader, with the Scriptures, to decide whether there has been a transition from truth to error..."
http://www.freepres.org/pamphlet_details.asp?graha..
Thank you for that excerpt as it reminded me of another point.

Would any of BG's errors preached from the pulpit or spoken in interviews lead anyone who belonged to the Father and given to the Son to save in time to perdition?

Is God's purpose of election back in the hands of the preacher when its convenient?

This piece from the FPC truly amazes me........ dangerous to who? Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction?


News Item12/7/14 1:55 PM
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I wasn't going to comment on this hot topic either but after reading so many comments on the man Billy Graham and all his errors, I get the distinct impression he'll be licking up flames of perdition soon and to me, that is sad.

Was Paul 100% successful in the course of his ministry? Of course not.

Was God 100% successful during Paul's ministry? Absolutely.

Is there anyone here who can say with absolute certainty that no one has ever come to Jesus Christ because of the meager beginnings of attending or hearing a BG crusade?

Instead of focusing on all the shortcomings of the man, why not at least balance that out with the millions of people worldwide who had a taste of the salvation which can be found only in Jesus Christ and trust that God just maybe drew a few with loving kindness to seek out His Son and actually found Him.

. . .

Ahem,

Perhaps you would be kind enough to explain your understanding of Paul's gospel. What does Christ crucified mean to you and how is that simple message the power of God unto salvation?


News Item12/6/14 1:23 PM
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pmaillet wrote:
Lurker, I have comments disabled on that blog, for obvious reasons. But if you have questions email me at:
pmailletblogs@gmail.com
I understand why you would have disabled comments. Actually I was thinking of posting questions on this forum but if that's not convenient email is fine.

News Item12/6/14 1:11 PM
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pmaillet wrote:
The world is going to be divided in these days between those who believe the Word of God and those who don't. If you don't, stay out of it.
Thanks for posting up your blog (I assume its yours)..... very interesting.

I'm going to spend some time reading it through and when I get done would you mind if I post up some questions for you to answer?

Blessings.


News Item12/6/14 11:59 AM
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MG wrote:
Lurker, I suppose I can see a couple similarities there ... but, of course Paul was a Jew and not an Ephraimite.
Actually he was of the tribe of Benjamin (Phl 3:5) before becoming a Jew (Acts 21:39, 1 Cor 9:20). Now there's one for those who count linage from genetics, eh?

Thanks for your comments.


News Item12/5/14 11:08 PM
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MG wrote:
Israel/Ephraim and gentiles goes all the way back to Jacob's blessing on his grandson, Ephraim. He said that he would become a multitude of nations. It's too big of a study for here, but, in effect, I believe this can mean that he would become "the gentiles". I realize many won't agree, but wit
I'm impressed, brother. Not many have made the connection of Ephraim's seed and the Gentiles. Since this is obviously of interest to you in your studies, I'd offer a suggestion for you to check out.

Obviously Ephraim is a figurehead as his name spans through the prophets to the time of the gathering of both tribes of Israel. See Jeremiah 31:9 where God calls Ephraim His firstborn. Read the preceding context to get a feel for the timeline of fulfillment. Now have a look at 1 Tim 1:16 **that in me first**

Now go back and read Jer 31:18-20. Sound like Paul on Damascus Road, God's called apostle to the Gentiles, one born out of due time?


News Item12/5/14 11:24 AM
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Michael Hranek wrote:
C.T. Studd, "If Jesus Christ is God and died for me, then no sacrifice is too great for me to make for Him.", the discussion of prophecy we have been having is not even of the same continent as something like that, is it?
How presumptuous of you to think you know what sacrifice God requires of those He calls; what burden, conviction or burning desire He sets in their hearts for His service. By your measure, William Tyndale was a fool and deserved his fate at the stake. Be careful that you don't find yourself guilty of attempting to meddle in God's affairs.

I know well you are adamantly opposed to my eschatology and I can deal with that. But I hope you understand that I don't speak up in these discussions as a covert way to needle and agitate you but rather to help anyone looking in who may have an open mind to what God actually says on the matter. If the scriptures I quote in defense of my assertions don't establish my views, it should be obvious and I'll bear my shame in God's time.

Your veiled insults are noted and if that's what you've got to do to feel better about yourself and your service to God..... carry on. But you may want to pray about and discern the source of your need to insult.....

Have a blessed day.


News Item12/4/14 11:10 PM
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MG wrote:
The House of Israel WILL return and seek the one true GOD! I believe that the gentiles/nations/House of Israel are very closely linked. Israel *became* the nations or gentiles in effect, and it is by their casting out that we can come in. We are part of them that once were not His people, but now are called "His people"! Therefore, through the House of Israel we become grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel
Why do you say "WILL return"? Peter quoted parts of Hosea 1:10 and 2:23 in 1 Pet 2:10 and in context wrote to the house of Israel.....

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Does this text make sense if applied to you or any Gentile Christian you know? Did you once know and love God, go astray and come back again? Of course not.... it only makes sense when applied to a people of God who had been cast away and gathered again..... the house of Israel who were given into Assyrian captivity.

Hos 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head.... (David, Ezek 37:15-28 confirming prophecy).

Acts 26:7 Unto which promise our **twelve tribes**, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come.


News Item12/4/14 8:12 PM
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John UK wrote:
I know you're quite up on all of this, so any chance of putting a bit more meat on this, as I find it very hard to grapple with.
Sure, bro. Isaiah 49 works well for me. I'll add notes in {...}

But Zion {olive tree, covenant of peace, Jerusalem from above, Sarah, mother of us all} said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls {Rev 21:9-14} are continually before me.

Thy children {Jews} shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.

The children which thou shalt have {Gentiles}, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell. Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?

Read the whole chapter keeping in mind that v.1-6 and 50:4-11 is written in the voice of Paul establishing timeline.


News Item12/4/14 1:59 PM
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Mike wrote:
There may be overlap, in that Jacob was renamed Israel, and Judah is one of Israel's sons. So we might say all Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews. Comments?
Hey bro.

Didn't mean to overlook your comment earlier. Can't argue with your observation but in the OT and prophets the distinction is clear between the two houses of Judah and Israel. Under Solomon there was one united kingdom of Israel but after him the kingdom broke apart into two separate kingdoms, each with their own kings, houses of worship, altars, etc.

One of the many promises God made in the prophets was to join these two kingdoms together again, set a king over them (David as a figure of Christ) and they would never part again or depart from God and this at the time He gathered them from where He had scattered them. I don't see any of this happening in the ME since 1948. See Ezek 37:15-28 and Hosea 1:8-11.

Blessings

. . .

The olive tree..... Israel? Try Mount Zion on for size.... God's covenant of peace and all who dwell therein...... namely His bride aka believers, real Jews per Paul's definition. Psalm 132:13-18.


News Item12/4/14 11:29 AM
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John for JESUS wrote:
Lurker...
Deny God's prophetic word all you want, but you still have to deal with the fact that Israel is still a nation now.
So your approach is: 1) Assume the OT and prophets must be interpreted literally, 2) Recognize the Jews in the ME since 1948 and assume prophecy is being fulfilled. 3) Assume the prophets must establish what you see literally.

If you'd care to provide that perfect prophecy which makes your case I'll gladly admit you are right and I'm wrong.

. . .

SteveR, Thanks. There is an element of truth in the idea and I've struggled with the term "children of Israel" myself. Its also used to identify those who came out of Egypt..... in both cases a remnant who belonged to God yet would be tried and purged of those who turned back to captivity in their hearts before receiving their inheritance. Paul helped my understanding of the meaning of the term in 1 Cor 13:11-12 and Gal 3:24-26. Indeed, Israel was under a schoolmaster when they were baptized into Moses in the sea and in the cloud.

Regarding the northern ten tribes.... not forever lost as most imagine. Hosea identifies them as a people who were not a people but now are the sons of the living God. Both Peter and Paul wrote to them (1 Pet 2:10, Rom 9:25).


News Item12/3/14 9:01 PM
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John for JESUS wrote:
Ezekiel 37:11-13 NKJV
Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel.

God said He would gather them back into the land of Israel and then they would know that He was the Lord.

Do you know the difference between the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah"?

The texts you've been quoting from Ezekiel speak of the house of Israel aka the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom. They don't shore up your argument, whatever it is, one bit. You have your eyes focused on JEWS (house of Judah, southern kingdom) in the ME since 1948.

If you want to argue the Jews return to the ME in 1948 fulfills prophecy, at least find prophets which speak of the Jews.

Another thing perhaps someone can answer. Why the fixation on one tribe of Jacob? Did Jacob not have 12 sons? Were not the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob for all 12 tribes plus Manasseh, Ephraim?

Did God not promise He would gather all 12 tribes at one time, make them one nation in the hand of Ezekiel (Ezekiel 37:15-28) who figures He who sits on the white horse of Rev 19?

The bible is filled with eschatological answers if you will just put away your prophetic "experts" idols like Dr. Ice, Pot Hole Digger and the like and seek God's wisdom.

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