IkeMike wrote: Mik help, It never states anywhere in those verses you spouted off WHO the father gave to Jesus, nor how many.
Sure they do; all who will be raised to eternal life on the last day.
An assurance founded on anything other (i.e. your decision) than what Jesus did for all the Father gave Him.... its a false assurance.
Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. (1 John 3:21-24)
Mike wrote: 1) Thanks for the response, Lurker. I do have one question. The first def I don't see, perhaps you will clarify?
2) The verse aims the longsuffering "to us-ward," not toward those who are going to suffer wrath and judgment.
1) Thayer's lexicon:
B.to be patient in bearing the offenses and injuries of others
i.to be mild and slow in avenging
ii.to be longsuffering, slow to anger, slow to punish
This seems an appropriate meaning since the next verse Peter speaks of the coming of the day of the Lord (vengeance).
2) "but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
I have to believe that "us-ward" and "all" both point to all the Father gave to the Son; i.e. the sum of His inheritance. If "us-ward" meant the audience of Peter's letter at the time it was written then that implies some of his audience had not yet come to repentance which is contradictory to his greeting.....
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:
That's how I see it but would be interested to hear your thoughts if different.
Mike wrote: Some say "any," "all," and "us-ward" refer to the pre-selected elect only. If you believe this, consider: There is NO chance that "any" of them can perish at all, right? Not even remotely a possibility, never was, since it is held they were chosen to be saved from before the foundation of the world. You believe they have been so elected, and therefore WILL come to repentance. You must be then be consistent with your theology, and believe that they will also repent in God's timing, correct? In what way then would the Lord be longsuffering toward the elect, when the timing of their repentance has been predestined by Him as well as the fact of it?
Good questions, Mike.
Predestination and election are over-complicated by Calvinism, IMO.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
All who will be raised to eternal life on the last day belonged to the Father and were given to the Son, to redeem in time, before He spoke the words we read above.
Longsuffering means slow to wrath and judgment which is what the day of the Lord holds in store. He is longsuffering because not all given to the Son has been redeemed.
now the facts wrote: John Calvin is NOT responsible for the death of Servetus! Servetus received the justice of the day in the 16th century which for a heretic was burning at the stake. It was the judiciary who passed sentence and carried out the punishment.
By your reasoning, Pilate was guilty of the blood of Christ.
Whoever determined Servetus was a heretic is guilty of his blood and I doubt it was the magistrate.
Troll spotter wrote: Too true! Also, if they truly believed in unconditional election, why the fictional prop of the Abrahamic covenant of grace and the sign of the covenant viz. infant baptism? Maybe Presbys want to determine who the unconditionally elect are and tell God who he is bound to bless? Joseph Irons was a Puritan?
R. K. Borill wrote: The old Puritan Joseph Irons would not agree. He said there is nothing more frightening in the heart of the sinner than the law of God's right to election. It is Arminianism that sets a God under the control of the sinner, and leads him to hell on a bed of false notions about God. But when he hears that God has the right, that God is in control , then he knows that NOW is the accepted time, TODAY is the day of salvation!
First off, you negate God's ordained means of pricking the hearts of sinners (the law, schoolmaster). Then you assume Arminians are lost and bent for hell because they don't subscribe to unconditional election without considering that they may already have God's laws to love God and neighbor written on their hearts. IOW, you take the same position we've heard for years that you can't be a real Christian unless you're a Calvinist.
The irony is that you don't even trust your own doctrine of unconditional election for if you did you would faithfully plant the gospel seed, water and entrust the increase to God.
Jesus was commanded to lose none of all the Father gave Him. Paul was "persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" without TULIP. Why aren't you?
Michael Hranek made some good comments along this line of thought which got me thinking. Calvinism, specifically TULIP, is a system of theology. It can't be preached to the lost for they wouldn't understand it nor would it convince them of sin and their need of a Savior. Those means have been ordained by way of the law causing all to become guilty before a holy, just and angry God and the gospel (Christ crucified) to bring them to the throne of grace. So for the lost, TULIP is useless.
So what of the born again? How does the five points of TULIP teach the new convert how to serve God for the rest of his/her mortal life in a manner pleasing to God? Does it teach us to keep the Father's commandments to believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love the brethren? No. Does it teach us to go out in the highways and byways and build God's house like Jonathan Edwards and George Whitefield did during the Great Awakening? No.
I agree with the doctrines of grace but eternal salvation was authored at Calvary, not Geneva. For those who would make submission to Calvinism a litmus test of a right standing of God; I pity you. While you seek to speak with authority on how God calls, you are devoid of the result of His calling.
R. K. Borill wrote: Lurker, Atheists from the Skeptics Annotated Bible Forum are masters of formal logic so according to your thesis they should be the best Christians of all. RK responds, Apparently you had a preconceived answer you expected, and obviously I have failed your test. I also suspect we could not come to agreement on anything because we have different axioms of authority and epistemology.
I suspect you're right, Randy.
My authority and source of knowledge is God's word which states Logos is Theos.... Theos is Agape.... and Agape fulfills all the law (including the Sabbath). According to your thesis, logic fulfills all the law. That leaves me feeling a bit underwhelmed.
R. K. Borill wrote: 1) Love is perfectly logical first of all because it comes from God who is love and perfectly logical, It's the hatred of man that is irrational,
2) Second, the first law of logic is the law of contradiction which states that no two opposing statements can be in agreement at the same time.
3) Scripture is all logic because all it's statements are in perfect agreement from Genesis to Revealtion.
1) Doesn't logically explain how love fulfills the Sabbath.
2) No disagreement in concept but most Christians call it inerrancy and infallibility of the written word because it was God breathed. But, few actually live by the rule as I have demonstrated time and again on this forum. Bring up a text of scripture which pokes a hole in someone's theological system and they ignore it rather than deal with it.
3) Atheists from the Skeptics Annotated Bible Forum are masters of formal logic so according to your thesis they should be the best Christians of all.
R. K. Borill wrote: I do not recall anywhere in this discussion where I spoke of myself. We were talking about your accusing me of elevating logic above scripture. (An accusation by the way in which you failed to provide evidence). I merely pointed out the impossibility of elevating logic above that which is logic. Are you now suggesting that I have such an ability or that I am implying that I have this ability when I have already said this is impossible. Speaking of which, if we are created in the image of God which you now say has a logical mind, is it possible for his creatures to think logically?
Back on your logic kick again?
These is nothing logical about love fulfilling the Sabbath but it's a biblical fact (Gal 5:14).
I'd be interested to read a biblical argument demonstrating that Holy Scripture is logic as you state. Are you up to it?
Dolores wrote: I am a Christian, serving Christ in a Southern Baptist Church.
Thank you for sharing your experience, Dolores.
The problem I see in some denominations is that they believe God calls His own to His Son only in the cookie cutter manner their denomination teaches and if your personal confession doesn't match.... you're out. But the real measure of whether God has done an everlasting work in the heart of someone is not HOW He did it but the RESULT of that work.
Some are gently drawn at a young age, like you, while others are violently brought to their knees at an older age, like me and everything in between. But the result is always the same.... we keep His commandments which He wrote on our hearts by the gospel:
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Great comments one and all. Wish I could stay awhile but.....
Really wrote: OK so I posted a little carelessly. But you still can't show anyone here that OT believers were ever called Christians, because in reality YOU are a complete ignoramus. And BTW what happened to your contention that OT believers were not born again? Pretty stupid statement, even for an evil hateful little secular troll like you
I read your post which Steve criticized and you were right on every point. He insists OT saints were Christians with no biblical warrant (in fact to do so he must reject Acts 11:26 as an error), including Rahab, but rejects the Christian definition of a Jew for those same OT saints.... "But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit" (Rom 2:29).
It's not possible to reason with the unreasonable.
. . .
Liza Jane, "Really" answered your question well but may I add that some, but not all, reformed have an elitist attitude. Somehow the teachings of election goes to their head and they perceive themselves better than non-Calvinist Christians. Some go as far as to call themselves "Real Christians" from the "True Church" implying that all others are lesser or not at all.
John UK wrote: Nay lad. Acts 11:26 KJV 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Exactly right, John.
Isa 62:1-2 For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a **new name**, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone (declaration of innocence), and in the stone a **new name** written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had **a name** written, that no man knew, but he himself.
All the pieces came together at Antioch when He who sat on the white horse began to reign. Isaiah 52:7
Dorcas, thanks for the Great Master Gardener clip. It's an all too often challenge for me to trust that He is guiding my footsteps, especially when my spirit is down. But, as the poem goes, it is during those times that He carries us instead of walking beside us. Great to see you posting again, btw.
Chris, whenever you are up to it will be fine. Yup, gift of gab! But I love your posts so keep them coming.
Anne, Thanks for sharing your "recliner moment" with us. These are precious memories that will be with you all your days..... even when you're old and gray like some of us and can't remember where you left your teeth.
Reminds me of a cute joke. An elderly pastor typically preached about a 50 minute sermon but one Sunday he went on and on for almost two hours. After the service someone asked him what happened. He answered: Apparently I grabbed my wife's dentures this morning by mistake. (Surely God has a sense of humor to put up with us.)
Penny, you're welcome. Hate to see anyone troubled without a cause.
Didn't mean to leave anyone out. Praise God for you all.
Thank you all so much for your encouragement. The Lord knows my spirit has been down for some time and your kindness and care has refreshed me greatly.
I wish I had Chris's and Dolores's gift of gab but, alas, by the grace of God I am what I am..... a quite loner. I look forward to reading all your posts daily even though I seldom respond. But I will say that I appreciate the fellowship of the brothers and sisters here on SA and pray daily that God will heal the hurt of His people.
It's dark and evil days we live in and we need each other, to help bear each others burdens, pray for each other and praise God for answered prayers. And pray I do, and will do, for all the SA family of God.
Dorcas wrote: Hello Lurker... Your post concerning your wife touched my heart. My husband and myself have committed our son who is a nominal RC to the Lord also. Btw..we will celebrate 46 years of marriage this year. and we were saved 13 years ago. Much in common with you brother
Thanks for your encouraging post, Dorcas.
And congratulations on a long marriage in the love of the Lord, both before and after His calling (Jeremiah 31:3 cf. John 6:44).
Indeed, we have much in common. My wife and I had four beautiful children and our eldest married an RC and joined that ungodly institution. And they are now raising three of our grandchildren as RCs as well. So much to entrust to the Lord but He alone is able to keep that which has been committed unto Him against that day.
By the way, were you able to listen to the lovely song in my post to Dolores? The lyrics are after 2 Timothy 1:12. It was my dad's favorite bible verse because he committed my elder brother (now 77) to the Lord at age 12. Unfortunately, the Lord has yet to call him but, like my dad before me, I trust in God for the eventual salvation of his soul.
So much hurt amongst God's people in this evil age. So many loved ones in darkness. But God is faithful to answer prayers.
penny wrote: ouch!! who's this troll that needs to be _________. wowsers! I hope that wasn't directed at me??
Liza J wrote: Nor directed at me ?....... since I also commented on this thread
Barry is a kind person who, to my knowledge, has never spoke a mean spirited word to or about anyone on this forum.
I read his comment in context and it seems he was encouraging Dolores to not leave SA and encouraged her to ignore those who trouble her. Dolores was not specific who was troubling her but I suspect it goes back several months.
Dolores wrote: while in Branson on our 50th wedding anniversary trip.
Congratulations to you and your husband, Dolores. BTW, my wife and I recently celebrated our 44th.
You and I have in common that our spouses have not yet been called of God. We were married 33 years before God called me and I look back on my life apart from the love of God and see clearly that He guided my steps all my life. I can't believe He didn't guide me to this wonderful Catholic woman who became my wife so I have committed her to Him....