Should not cherry pick wrote: Sorry Kev not trying to get your ire up. Was just responding to your assertion that prophecy hermeneutics was dark and not intended to be literal. Seems like we have agreement Not all prophecy is literal and it's not all allegorical., context and comparing Scripture with Scripture matter. Thanks for your input
Yes that is just about it and to say that whenever you can interpret literally you should do so is not what the Bible instructs especially when it is a vision or a dream and I hear alway about "a constant literal interpretation" by some. I probably was not clear in my writing as some of the things you thought I was implying I did not mean to try and imply. Thanks and thanks for your thoughts as well.
Ask about a specific verse and I'll tell you what I think. The marriage Supper of the Lamb I believe is the union of believers to Christ not so much a literal interpretation of an actual meal. Us circled around Christ on a throne is I'm not so so sure a real throne but may very well symbolize all under the control and bowing to the will of Christ who has all power thus on his throne etc.. these are visions and some places are literal but a constant literal interpretation is never suggested when dealing with such
should not cherry pick wrote: not sure how Rev.5:11 could be referred to as a limited (specific) number. Turn the question back, are you saying the unsaved dead will not give account for their deeds and be cast into the lake of fire? Your issue is that you have to account for parts of Revelation that you consider literal and parts you consider allegorical. Who is to say you are right and others are wrong?
I said specified not specific about that Rev passage. Did I say they won't be judged? It says the books will be opened and judged out of the books if I remember right that is what I commented on. That part seems "allegorized" to me. Show me where I said that it can never be literal or is always allegorized. I was talking about the "consistent literal approach" as not being correct. Yeah who knows I may very well be wrong! When did I say I was right and others were wrong? I even said you and me can only speculate that isn't a dogmatic stance saying I can only speculate.
should not cherry pick wrote: Now you run into other issues. Were the churches in chapters 2 and 3 allegorical? Are those gathered around the throne singing the praises of the Lamb not literal? Are the saints not going to utter Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth? Is there no marriage supper of the Lamb for His bride? Is the great white throne judgment a dark allegory? Was Peter also wrong because he also wrote about a new heaven and earth like that mentioned in Revelation?
When he talks to the churches in chapter 2 and 3 was he talking about a vision or something he saw? In the great white throne judgement will they literally open up books? When they say worthy is the Lamb will there only be the specified amount of people in those verses who say that? Your missing the point that a literal approach is not the approach in everything that is given in visions and in dreams. You can't say the 144000 virgins has to be interpreted literal because you are suppose to have a literal interpretation of visions and dreams. The other things you asked about you have no idea if they will be literally fulfilled you and my answer to that would only be speculation.
Should not cherry pick wrote: Also, look at all the prophecies about Christ that were literally fulfilled. You're not saying they were literal are you? Best rethink your hermeneutics
You missed the content about my message being about VISIONS AND DARK SAYING when I started out with this line "So how can a "dark saying" be interpreted literally?" Maybe I should of been clearer on that thanks though. That Kings passage is a warning though and is fulfilled as a sign that is different then prophetic visions which was my topic and more specifically it was about Rev. I didn't say that prophecy doesn't have a literal fulfillment I was talking about the interpreting of such passages as Rev.
Rev is a prophecy and what did God say about how he will talk to prophets? In dreams and "dark saying". So how can a "dark saying" be interpreted literally?
5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.
6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a PROPHET among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in A VISION, and will speak unto him in a DREAM.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, EVEN APARENTLY, and NOT in DARK SPEECHES; and the SIMILTUDE of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
God himself gave the hermeneutics for interpreting prophecy and he didn't say it was a literal approach he also shows where there is suppose to be a literal interpretation.
While at my mothers house over the weekend I went to a dispensational church and the Gospel was preached and the people there were very nice. I picked this church on their statement of faith about the Gospel.
Hey Bro Dave I too believe that after all the saving of Gentiles there will be a great turning of Jews towards Christ.
Christ is the End of the Law Allan Jellett tinysa.com/sermon/8711714470
The Sabbath in its Christian Form Allan Jellett Sunday, August 14, 2011 tinysa.com/sermon/81411820431
Christ Our Sabbath San Diego Grace Fellowship Eric Richards Wednesday, March 23, 2016 tinysa.com/sermon/32516033510
Christ, The End of The Law Don Fortner Sunday, January 20, 2013 tinysa.com/sermon/120132116268
UPS I'm glad you are holding to the word of God. It's a sad day when you say you follow the words of Christ and you are called an antinomian.
2 Cor3:11 11 For if that which is DONE AWAY was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
It is clear what has been replaced in 2 Cor 3 yet they look upon the ministration of death still and don't see the sufficiency of Christ and the apostles teachings. Jesus said to look unto His sayings John 14:23.
They decide to parse God's Holy law and redefine the Sabbath. They say well Acts 15 is just transitional, what to "reformed theology". Nowhere in the Bible is There a separating of the law and those who try to push law keeping are strictly rebuked. Of course they believe they know more than the council of Jerusalem what they should follow out of the law of Moses.
Brother John just like UPS pointed out the law is nowhere mentioned divided the way that it if done in reformed theology. Remember what you said the law of Moses is? Now take that definition and apply it to your reading of Acts 15. The scripture is clear. I don't follow any line of beliefs that doesn't hold up under scripture. Notice their isn't one place in the Bible saying follow the moral law because it isn't their no such division is seen biblically it is a man made invention. When people like Pink get to a verse they don't understand they go well they don't really mean your free from the law just the consequences. When clearly Paul says in other places free from the curse of the law. You are married to Christ in Romans 7 and divorced from the law. Then they say well you still have some sort of relationship with the law. In the NT Jesus and the disciples gively plenty of light to live by don't you think? What is one thing that isn't clear from the NT. Clearly the old covenant is gone in Heb 8:13 and the covenant was embodied by the tables of the covenant. Just like Don Fortner said you are free from the law but that doesn't mean to live in direct violation of it. We are free to serve Christ and it is the love of Christ that constrains us.
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his COVENANT, which he commanded you to perform, [even] TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two TABLES OF STONE.
Deu 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, [that] the LORD gave me the TWO TABLES OF STONE, [even] the TABLES OF THE COVENANT.
13 In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT, he hath made THE FIRST OLD. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is READY to VANISH AWAY..
14 BLOTTING OUT the HANDWRITING of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, NAILING it to his CROSS;
Having ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of TWAIN ONE new man, so making peace;â
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become DEAD TO THE LAW by the BODY OF CHRIST; that ye should be MARRIED to ANOTHER, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Still no bible verses just theories from the writing of fallible men.
6 But now we are DELIVERED FROM THE LAW, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should SERVE in NEWNESS OF SPIRIT, and not in the OLDNESS of the LETTER.
"The "Law of Moses" is the entire system of legislation, judicial and ceremonial, which Jehovah gave to Israel during the time they were in the wilderness. The Law of Moses, as such, is binding upon none but Israelites. This Law has not been repealed. That the Law of Moses is not binding on Gentiles is clear from Acts 15."
So Pink says obviously the Law of Moses is not binding on Gentile believers. I agree with that.
Nowhere in the Bible is the law of Moses defined as he did nowhere this is one of the Heresies of Reformed doctrine.
32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the TRADITION OF MEN, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in ALL THINGS which are written in the book of the law to do them.
The Bible has taken a backseat and the opinions of men have been held up
The Law of Christ's Kingdom Don Fortner tinysa.com/sermon/47132255143
Here is a biblical definition of the law of Moses. It is clear here it is the Ten Commandments: Joshua 8:32 And he wrote there upon the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he wrote in the presence of the children of Israel.
Now look what happened when some said that the newly converted gentiles must keep the law of Moses:
Acts 15: 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Now see what Pink says about Acts 15:
"The "Law of Moses" is the entire system of legislation, judicial and ceremonial, which Jehovah gave to Israel during the time they... OOS
1. Using the Mosaic covenant as though it is the covenant between you and God.
2. Attempting to be justified by one's own works.
3. Attempting to be sanctified by one's own works
4. Suggesting that our worth or worthlessness, our self-esteem and self-satisfaction or lack thereof, rest on our own works.
5. Any attempt to please God judicially, or any supposition that our sin as believers has resulted in his judicial displeasure. [Any post-salvation attempt to maintain our judicial standing before God through good works, covenant faithfulness, merit etc..]
You guys said irrelevant I told you guys that wasn't appropriate. I said binding was the word.
Bind-ing: adjective 1. (of an agreement or promise) involving an obligation that cannot be broken. "business agreements are intended to be legally binding" synonyms: irrevocable, unalterable, inescapable, unbreakable, contractual; More
Are you bound to the Law of Moses? Look at the synonyms for binding. The whole conversation was are we "under the law". The Bible says otherwise which I have given plenty of verses. It started off with the point is are we to follow the Fourth commandment. Which I showed from Heb was always a sign pointed to Christ.
You pointed to a divorced woman. Does not the NT give ample instruction? Do you follow the rules given in the OT for divorce. Clearly Jesus gave new instruction on this matter.
You guys keep not getting what I'm telling you. --- BMC your point has always been keeping the Ten Commandments and you partially quoted 1 John. What are the commandments we are told to keep in the verses then? --- Penned now you said your NOT"under the law" and they have been saying you are. Are you judged by the Ten Commandments? No one said not to walk according to the light given you guys are mixing apples with oranges.
pennelope wrote: actually..... Jesus did die that we could fulfill His commandments. all hearts are turned away. but now that we are in the family, Br. Kev says we are obligated to love.
I don't know what all this letting homosexual pastors and Hilsong stuff is about I see the comment below where BMC tries to use 1John 3:24 out of context and say : "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him" and say this refers to the law when in the next verse it clearly lists Jesus's Commandments:
1 John 3:23
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
Then she says I don't take verses in context!
Do you think you keep any of the Law remember Jesus elaborates on what to keep the law means on the Sermon on the Mount to Jews who thought they kept the law.
As I said many times not under the law means led by the Spirit vice verse if Jesus lives in you (Seed) you are not under the law but under Grace.
I'm still waiting as well for something that we need to follow that is not found in the NT
Hb8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Mike wrote: Jesus didn't die and rise again that we might be enabled to keep the commandments, he died because as unbelievers we were unable to keep them, and as believers we are still unable to keep them. We throw ourselves upon his mercy for continuing forgiveness, not upon our enablement to keep the commandments. 1 John 1:8,9 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Believers have an advocate in Him for a reason.
See your not listening again I said awhile back that 9 of the Ten Commandments where reiterated in the NT. In Acts 15 they made sure to add those things that weren't as clear from the Gospels that are nessisary
So no answer to any of my questions huh, are you gonna be judged by the Ten Commandments?
Has Christ redeemed you from under the law?:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To REDEEM them that WERE UNDER THE LAW, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
I haven't seen one verse showing we "are under the law" seen a lot saying we're:
"Were under the law" "Free from the law" "Dead to the law" "Free from the curse of the law" Etc.. but you guys say we're still UNDER the Mosaic Law. Nowhere in the Bible does it suggest this. Acts 15 is clear if you don't try to make it fit your theology. Hey I use to think like you guys but couldn't find verses to back it up and found verses that said otherwise.
As I said the OT can be used for much wisdom. It is Holy and perfect. God gave it and Christ fully lived under it to redeem us from being under it and having to be judged by it to all who believe. --- Read Rom 3:31 in light of its context in Rom 4