Great Sermon! I wonder if anyone has considered that a particular church in its entirety can become abusive to women!
I found that as the abusive men took control of our church and the nice ones left (because they too were abused) the church became more and more abusive in its leadership towards women. Fundamentalism tends this way naturally and when certain men take over it becomes more so, supported by abused wives who support their sense of entitlement and become misogynistic themselves.
These 'super-godly'leaders fit almost every category of abusiveness including keeping all the monies of the church under their control and permitting no women in any leadership positions, reminding them that men alone are entitled to lead, pray, decide, etc...and when a person leaves they are always at fault for not being submissive enough, etc. One such church expelled (excommunicated) 14 elderly parishioners for not 'submitting' to a very wrong decision by their elders. These were people who had been members all their lives and the leadership was just a bunch of arrogant men who had grown accustomed to being bowed down to and couldn't accept any one who questioned them.
I would love to hear a sermon on 'the church as abuser'...there are churches that closely resemble the Taliban in our circles.
Great Sermon!...further cross reference for cross reference, see www.sermonaudio.com series entitled "Domestic Violence and Abuse" by Pastor Jeff Crippen a former police officer and pastor whose deep research has led to the book "The Cry for Justice". He also compares the abuser with Diotrephes who loved to have the pre-eminence...and addresses the problem that leaders also face in the churches. This study opens eyes, while the churches generally have failed to understand what abuse really is...all women should go directly to at least the first 18 of these sermons in the 21 sermon series on this website...in the end you will see how more submission is not always the answer...
Great Sermon Series...must hear! Matthew Henry confirms the meaning of Genesis 3:16 in his commentary, as follows:
‚ÄúII. She (Eve) is here * put into a state of subjection. The whole sex, which BY CREATION WAS EQUAL WITH MAN, is, for sin, made inferior‚Ä¶the sentence was not a curse, to bring her to ruin, but a chastisement, to bring her to repentance‚Ä¶.‚ÄĚ
Matthew Henry's commentary on Genesis 3:16 after the Fall doesn't agree with the Danver's statement on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood that suggests the husband was head of the wife FROM THE BEGINNING...nor do I and many others who still hold to the infallibility of scripture. The fallibility is in ourselves and we need to humble ourselves and search more carefully to see if our traditions are true to the Bible or not...
But despite this, the whole series should be required listening for all Christians.
Great Sermon! Don't miss this great series! Regarding the comment during sermon: you described a minister who said "What did he do? Slap you around a little bit?"
This is more than bad...it is not just unacceptable...this pastor's words are clear marks that he also is an abusive man...a man who thinks that to slap her around a 'little bit'is a joke is a man who thinks nothing of doing it himself?
This pastor's life requires investigation. I found this attitude in the churches I attended: an frightening attitude of men with one another ... standing around happy in sharing a 'derogatory kind of laughter' where women knew one of us was being mocked by the group of men. The churches have become a haven for such men and this must either stop or all women will eventually leave them to their own devices and the once majority women in the church will become all male churches...I see regular proof of this...women leaving the churches in droves. We know when the prevailing atmosphere is becoming dangerous for women and this is thanks to the fact that men who stand against such behaviour are usually also driven out of the churches by abusive men...some fundamental churches are becoming an old boys club of such men. Fathers and mothers pay attention! In these churches your daughters are not safe!
Great Sermon! This is the most frightening sermon so far in this series...it shows how vulnerable women are and even how vulnerable Christian churches are to deception from abusive people...until this sermon I felt there were ways to uncover the deception, but when he said even those who pretend to fight for protection for people can be some of the most abusive in disguise one wonders how far Satan will go to hide his intentions...God help us all!
This sermon series should be required listening for all people, especially those in the churches, and most especially ALL WOMEN!
Great Sermon! What a blessing to finally hear a sermon on this subject from someone who actually believes that the Lord still gifts some people with this gift. I have tried to discuss this gift with many "Bible Scholars" only to be reprimanded and told that I should not judge people and that the Lord does not work in that way today. I didn't understand the gift myself and was just trying to get information so that I could understand it better. I didn't go to Bible school but I am married to the Pastor of a Fundamental Baptist church. I believe this is why I have the gift. I have no pre-conceived notions about how God is supposed to work today according to the local Bible scholars. I only know what the Bible says and what I have learned from good Bible preaching and the Holy Spirit Himself, Who knows all about everything that I need to know. What a precious gift that the Lord has given to our church.You were right about feeling alone. As Tozer said, " The man who carries a cross will not have many friends". That's O.K with me if that is what the Lord wants. Thank you for letting the Lord use you to speak to my heart.
Interesting perspective! Rev. Trewhella makes some strong points. There is no Bible translation anywhere that says God is our mother or even female...There is no real inclusive Bible...the real term is Gender 'accurate' Bible and the only reason one exists is because of the English language. Our language translates general terms like "anyone" as "a man". Because of our generic "he or him" many people misunderstand the meaning of the Greek original so translators decided to be more accurate and the result was hysteria from N.A. pulpits. i.e. 1Tim. 3:1 Greek says "if anyone desire to be an overseer", while the KJV says "If any man desire the office of a bishop". This has led to confusion (the work of Satan) that there is to be an 'office' of overseer and that it is only for 'males'. Secondly, no Egalitarians support the practice of homosexuality at all. It is forbidden in scripture across the board. We have here too many 'straw dog' arguments designed to inculcate fear and hostility. Shame on those who 'reinforce our differences rather than our shared humanity' and engender divisions among the faithful. "Mark them which cause divisions contrary to the doctrine that ye have received and avoid them." "Love one another".
Great Sermon! Trewhella says "The woman is created second so she is only a secondary derivation of the image of God." Talk about 'novel' theology! "Mattie", better untie that "1/2 brain" of yours you say you "tied behind your back", for the sake of women. First of all, birth order is rarely conclusive in the Bible(i.e.Esau/Isaac, Cain/Seth etc.) Second, when something is derived from something else we call it refining or 'distillation' that produces a more pure derivation of the original...as gold is refined, so God refined the man. Only then was He able to say the human creation 'was good'‚Ä¶ If the second derivation was inferior, as you imply, then God could not have said it was ‚Äėgood‚Äô.
Swallow the juvenile misogyny here if you can. This childishness, indicative of a great fear of women and aggression towards women is a bit frightening. Methinks Matt doth protest too much. Women, unless you believe God made you an inferior vessel, better run!
re 'Preaching with Integrity' Only thing worse than contemporary pagan feminism is infernal, emasculating pagan patriarchy that came in with Rome, clung to Calvin, and has spawned feminism by it's gross worldliness and sinfulness!
Paul was right when he said grievous wolves would enter the church not sparing the flock and they hit on the most tender vessels that few have cared to defend since....women.
Don't you get it that the patriarchal culture that extends over all the globe is the REAL "contemporary worldly culture" that currently smothers the church? The wolves are running the church.
NECESSARY TRUTH It is the GOODNESS of God that leadeth thee to repentence...glad this has been brought out to reveal the futility of fear mongering preaching.
I fear however, that the usual treatment of women by fundamentalists will eventually sour this woman on our churches and lead her out as it has me...for she will find little of God's goodness toward women when she discovers teachings like the Article 10 of this website and realizes she and all women are in a dead end for serving our Great God in any serious capacity other than in the kitchen or in dangerous foreign fields, alone...only there will she find the freedom to tell others of His goodness for we prefer our women SILENT and helpless with their hands tied behind their backs. We have no room for God's Jaels and the fierce Godly women of Judges 9:53 and 2 Samuel 20:19 or the many Bible women who acted on their own without consulting male leadership, like Abigail and Hannah and Mary the mother of Jesus and most others as well. We have imposed our culture on women and made them timid and useless for God, unable to make Godly decisions in the churches or to go out and teach others the scriptures unless they leave their home churches and go elsewhere. "LET MY PEOPLE GO THAT THEY MAY SERVE ME." saith the Lord.
Surprising conclusions! Jesus chose to subordinate Himself, but no human ever chooses subordination because humans are not trustworthy. Jesus commanded: ‚ÄúAll things ye would that men would do to you, do ye even so to them‚ÄĚ, and: ‚Äúthou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.‚ÄĚ Paul said ‚ÄúBe kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another‚ÄĚ. Some churches leave these out of their theology of women. James 2:9 says ‚Äúif ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.‚ÄĚ See Article 10 of Faith on this website, for example. Respect of persons is prejudice or discrimination. The perception that women are unequal in the church is because they are degraded when they are treated differently. The argument for Adam‚Äôs headship is false because of the recurring pattern in scripture where the second born take headship: Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, Judah, David and Joseph over their older brothers, and Moses over Aaron. The practice of inequality to women causes abuse because inequality implies inferiority. Instead of one mediator, women have several mediators‚Ä¶a reversion to the papacy. Oddly women have to leave churches to find the glorious liberty of Christ. Let us know when you are ready for us to come back.
Food for thought God said: Ezekiel 18:25 ‚ÄúHear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way EQUAL? are not your ways UNEQUAL ?‚ÄĚJesus said ‚ÄúAll things ye would that(humankind) would do to you, do ye even so to them.‚ÄĚ Romans 12:10 ‚ÄúBe kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love IN HONOUR PREFERRING ONE ANOTHER;‚ÄĚ ‚ÄúSubmit yourselves one to another in the fear of God.‚ÄĚ ‚ÄúThe head of the woman is the man and the head of the man is Christ and the head of Christ is God.‚ÄĚ‚Ä¶well Christ ‚Äúdid not think it robbery to be equal with God‚ÄĚ, who is His head and therefore headship does not denote a hierarchy or inequality, else we would do despite to the Trinity. ‚ÄúLet nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.‚ÄĚ Philippians 2:3
Jesus, Eph 2:14-15, "...abolished in his flesh...enmity‚Ä¶‚ÄĚ and therefore: ‚ÄúIn Christ there is neither male not female‚ÄĚ or as Matthew Henry says, on Eph 2:14-15 ‚ÄúJesus Christ is our peace, v. 14. He...came to reconcile, 1. Jews and Gentiles (male and female, bond and free) to each other. ‚ÄúGod is no respecter (discriminator, prejudicial, intolerant, partisan,chauvinistic, bigoted, partial, unjust or biased) of persons‚ÄĚ James 2:9 says we sin if we respect persons (discriminate). Yet we are taught this is God's will.
to Rev. Silversides What use is theological understanding when half the church thinks they must refuse to listen? Hannah and Mary, Miriam and Huldah, and others preach to men daily out of the Bible. God has given them a pulpit in His Word. Surely then, God has not changed and as you say, God does not contradict Himself. Jesus knowingly sent the Samaritan woman as an apostle (one who is sent) to her people when He could have chosen a man and He chose Mary Magdalene to teach his disciples about the Resurrection. You cannot suggest that they were his second choice. Jesus went out of His way to meet the woman at the well. God's word does not CLEARLY prohibit women from preaching. That is the point. Jesus never silenced women nor instructed them to subject themselves to men in matters of the Holy Spirit. They belong to Him, bought with a price and He is their only Mediator. Paul admitted "not that we have dominion over your faith" and Peter said "not as being lords over God's heritage". They bowed to the greater authority of Jesus.
Interesting and inventive Rev. Silversides,
I am a bit confused by your admission that God has gifted women both as preachers and theologically and nevertheless requires their absolute silence in the church.
Why do you think God has given women these gifts? It just seems to fly in the face of Jesus command in the parable of the talents and leaves women completely flummoxed wondering how to deal with the dichotomy that they are condemned by God for not using their talents and condemned by you for using them.
Oh but you also said I am also not permitted to ask questions and my husband does not attend church...what to do!
What is your solution?
Reply to Pastor Bill I do appreciate what you shared but have heard those verses expounded often and have submitted to them for 35 years. I did appraise the scriptures you gave by attempting to draw your focus away from a one-two-verse view and highlighting instead the overview of all scripture. Evidently I failed to reveal to you a vision of the God we serve who does not see our genders, but our hearts, and who came to set His people at liberty. Can God endorse unequal ways (Ezekiel.18:25)? I agree with all Paul‚Äôs teachings, but not with formulating his teachings to appear to make God‚Äôs way unequal, when He says it is not, or with mistranslations of some of Paul‚Äôs Greek words that change the meaning. To say women have more than one Mediator between them and God, and other masters than Christ, contradicts Jesus and the intent of the Reformation. Consider Jesus' treatment of women, He who loves, uplifts, and nurtures women. You may come to see who women are in His sight and how Paul, who was taught by Him, also saw women. We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus, in His image. Do you discount that? Some do. Pray, if you must, that God will set us all straight and that His Will will be done. I, too, will end my discourse here. God will conclude it in us all.
One Mediator? Two Masters! Is the doctrine wrong or do men prefer to control women? You say,‚Äú(2)Jesus and God are equal, yet the incarnate God was in a subordinate role as mediator,‚Ä¶‚ÄĚ The key is, Jesus ‚Äúchose‚ÄĚ this role, temporarily, in the protected, holy, environment of the triune ‚Äúsovereign‚ÄĚ Godhead. In human terms, choosing subordination opens a historically proven excess of abuse and horror, as Jesus demonstrated. Also, ‚Äúhaving graduated from ‚Äėfine seminaries‚Äô‚ÄĚ where gender bias is guaranteed has nothing to do with it, I guess? And coming out of Roman Catholic tradition (the Reformation and Puritanism) where women were burned at the stake as witches wouldn‚Äôt have anything to do with it either, I suppose? Did God approve? The tradition that women, exclusively, are evil, unequal, unclean and inferior has persisted through our carnal traditions, and unlike the soul liberty that men claimed in the Reformation, women are still shut out, quenching the Spirit of God in them. Then there is the cruelty (both sexes) found in many so-called Christian homes where inequality isn‚Äôt rebuked. 35 years immersed in your view causes me to grieve over the often resulting ‚Äėmale‚Äô sin of pride, entitlement and arrogance. How many mediators do women have to go through to get to God? How many masters must they serve?
WHO IS OUR GOD? Titus 1:6 doesn‚Äôt rule out women. Note, women ‚Äúpresbuteros‚ÄĚ in 1 Tim 5:2.
Paul doesn‚Äôt mention women in Gal 2:4-5, yet that transfers logically from Galatians 3:28. Context cannot deny the heart of God whose Way is Equal:
‚Äú12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men (people) should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law‚Ä¶‚ÄĚ Matthew 7:12
‚ÄúLove thy neighbour as thyself‚ÄĚ quoted 8 times!
If ye respect persons ye sin. James 2:9, and ‚ÄúGod is no respecter of persons.‚ÄĚ Acts 10:34
Luke 4:18 ‚ÄúThe Spirit of the Lord‚Ä¶hath anointed me to ‚Ä¶preach deliverance to the captives,‚Ä¶to set at liberty‚Ä¶‚ÄĚ.
Luke 1:52: ‚ÄúHe hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.‚ÄĚ
Matt. 23:8 ‚Äú‚Ä¶for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.‚ÄĚ
‚Äúby reason of the bondage‚ÄĚ‚Ä¶‚ÄúLet my people go that they may serve me‚ÄĚ (Exodus)
‚ÄúStand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage‚ÄĚ Gal 5:1
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; ‚Ä¶not ‚Ä¶for an occasion to the flesh‚Ä¶ Gal 5:13
Submit yourselves one to another‚Ä¶husbands‚Ä¶as Christ (gave himself Gk: paradidomi: to place oneself into the hands of another = submit) Ephesians 5:21-33.
Inequality is described but equality
Important subject Who is sacrificing scripture? 1 Tim 3:11 (in the Greek) teaches that "the women likewise" can be deacons (and elders), subject to the same limitations as the men. Why has that teaching been sacrificed?
Furthermore, you will observe that if the scriptures regarding Huldah the great prophetess (2 Kings 22:14 and 2 Chronicles 34:22), are entered in SermonAudio.com in, "Sermons by Bible", you will find that, out of approximately 650,000 current and historical sermons on the website, there are ‚Äú0‚ÄĚsermons dealing with this great woman. That confirms a striking sacrifice of the inspired words of God, by approx.15,000 speakers! Using the same feature on the website, you will note that Ezekiel 18:25, 29 and Ezekiel 33:17 and 20 wherein God declares that His Way is equal and Our Way is unequal, has also been totally ignored by the 15,000 + speakers on this website. When this number of ministers ignore two key passages of interest to over half of the church (women) one cannot say God didn‚Äôt ‚Äėlead them to preach them‚Äô.
We try to justify a sinful ‚Äúrespect of persons‚ÄĚ in injuring the hearts of women by inferring in our churches that God prefers men to women. How could Paul say ‚Äúneither male nor female‚ÄĚ and not infer, ‚Äúfemale and bond‚ÄĚ in Gal. 2:4-5, as he did with ‚ÄúGreek‚ÄĚ?
Pastor WJS So the words of God Himself,Jesus, are just as weighty as those of a God-saved sinful man, Paul, in your eyes.
But that is not the point! Proper exegesis of scripture is to compare scripture with scripture. The prophets are subject to the prophets, as your beloved Paul says. If our understanding of Paul's words contradict the teachings of many other prophets in scripture we have to balance our interpretation so that it does not fly in the face of the whole counsel of God. Is that not so?
Since Jesus nowhere taught female submission, and since God presented Huldah the prophetess as a teacher of men and a king, as well as presenting Deborah,likewise, and taught that God's way is Equal (Ezekiel 18:25-29 and Ezekiel 33:17-30)how then do we find such weight given to the interpretation of Paul when he appears to take away the liberty Christ gives to women?
With Paul, then, I concur as he says of the Judaizers, Gal.2:4 ...because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you..."
-likewise with Jew, Gentile, male and female! Todays misogynist yesterday's Juda