I just wanted to make clear, when God says that all Israel will be saved, it doesn't mean by obedience to the law. The remnant will believe.
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Revelation 11:13 KJV
In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 12:8â€-â€¬10 KJV
pennelope wrote: 1)Are you agreeing with the passage that the children of the flesh are in rebellion? (ie outside of covenant) and that the means to the covenant is through Christ's atonement? 2)Now that you have also seen that those of the race in the flesh cannot claim standing based on race, but that the true circumcision is through faith in Christ.... what is missing from your life that you must insist on adding to the complete work of Christ as the means to the Kingdom?
1) The children of flesh are those Jews trying to earn their salvation by good works. The children of promise are those Jews who believe in God.
2) I'm not adding to Christ work of salvation. However, I am not going to ignore the promises He has made to the children of Abraham. Why are you so offended that God has a plan for Israel and the Jews?
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:18â€, â€¬28â€-â€¬29 KJV
pennelope wrote: 1)You know the NT says that the true Jew is the one circumcised of heart? 2)What does Rev 2:9, 3:9 warn you about spiritual Sodom? 3)This is why dispensational churches reject the clear teachings of election in the NT, because to say that there are Jews and Gentiles elected for favor (ie ETERNAL salvation), would mean that race is not the basis for favor and that their neocon wores were not for God's Kingdom (and in fact led to the slaughter of Christians in the ME, causing them to be on the wrong side of Rev 20) 4)the temple is now you and me if the Holy Spirit is with us.
1)Yes, as opposed to the Jews who try to earn salvation by works. Either way, the passage is talking about Jews. 2)Nothing, one says Smyrna and the other Philadelphia. 3)I'm not sure I am dispensational and I don't remember a bunch of churches arming up to murder slaughter Christians in the ME. Do you mean Muslims? 4)That's true. I'm not looking to another temple being built.
When they said they met The Lord God of the Hebrews, Pharoah knew that wasn't an Egyptian God. In fact the Egyptians called the descendants of Abraham Hebrews!
And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is one of the Hebrews' children. Exodus 2:6 KJV
"you simply cannot question the fact Abrahamâ€™s physical descendants are not now and never have been the centerpiece of Godâ€™s purpose and the apple of his eye. When the Lord Jesus Christ declares himself to the distinctly and peculiarly â€śthe LORD God of the Hebrews,â€ť he is talking about Abrahamâ€™s spiritual descendants."
Nobody says that Israel is the center piece of God's purpose (straw man). However, He does have a plan and purpose for Israel's people and land. When God says He is the Lord God of the Hebrews, it means that! Nowhere does God say, just teasing! The preacher just makes that up. That's why he can't give any evidence for God actually meaning Abraham's spiritual descendants.
One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Ephesians 4:5 KJV
There is but one baptism.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Acts 1:5 KJV
John baptized in the past with water, now we are baptired with the Holy Spirit.
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? Acts 11:16â€-â€¬17 KJV
Baptism is for Jew and Gentile alike who believed.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21 KJV
Baptism saves us.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27 KJV
How can one be saved unless they put on Christ? It is in Christ a believer is made righteous because He is righteous and therefore forgiven.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 KJV
penned wrote: the physical descendents are in bondage. its the Jerusalem that is above my friend, that is free. the Jerusalem you are looking for is not here had by neocon wars but from above, pure and sinless... "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Revelation 21:2 the earthly Jerusalem is compared called spiritual Sodom in Revelations 11:8.
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Galatians 4:22â€-â€¬26
Ishmael is a allegory for those who try to earn salvation by works. Isaac is the child of promise, allegorical for those who believe and set free from the bondage of law
God has plans for Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem. That doesn't mean all Jews are saved, but they will be!
How could God the Father possibly be a Jew when He is a spirit? He isn't a non Jew either! The only way I can understand what the pastor said is the way I originally took it and you would agree that Jesus was a Jew?
And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God. Exodus 3:18 KJV
Even if the Father isn't a Jew, He is The Lord God of the Hebrews.
My next problem was this sentence:
"This obsession with Israelâ€™s right to â€śthe Holy Landâ€ť has its roots in the heresies of dispensational theology, made popular by the Scofield Reference Bible."
I would think Israel's right to her land has to do with 2 factors. First, God placed it there.
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; Acts 17:26 KJV
And second, historically the land was desolate with few inhabitants and people of Jewish ancestory started legally buying up the land.
Observer wrote: So what is the starting point? Listen to these verses: Rom 9 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. He's already stated something similar back in Rom 2 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. The literal ethnic Israel is not in view!
The whole point is that Abraham had other seed according to the flesh, but only Isaac was the child of promise.
Romans 2 is talking about Jews only! Those who thought they were saved by obedience to the law, by earning their salvation by works, resting in the law for their salvation.
Ishmael was a descendent of Abraham, but he wasn't a child of promise. God blessed him, but the child of promise was Isaac.
Lurker wrote: Yawn! Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Church (ekklesia: feminine gender, hence either married to or betrothed to God) means assembly of believers regardless of NT or OT. Take the dispy blinders off and smell the coffee. . . . Brother John, You are settled on the matter. No problem.
If I was wrong like you are, I wouldn't be yawning. I would want to listen to God's word. If Romans 11 isn't speaking about the nation of Israel and the physical descendants of Abraham according to the promise, then it makes no sense!
God made a promise to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He promised to save the remnant and the whole nation will be saved. Jesus will set up His throne there. There is nothing political about it. It is a promise that God has yet to fulfill and I know He will do it.
They were still saved by faith while under the law. If the law could save, Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross. The showed their faith by adhering to the law, but there were also times when there was no law or temple to obey the law.
In the O.T. people believed God and it was counted as righteousness. Even before the sacrificial laws.
What part of Rms 11? Verses 1-36.
Oh really, Israel is the church?!
So God divorced His church because His church rejected Jesus? The church has killed the prophets? The church hasn't obtained what it was looking for? God has given the church a spirit of slumber? The church was broken off because of a lack of faith? Salvation has come to the Gentiles, but when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then the church will believe?! Concerning the gospel, the church is an enemy? The church does now not believe? Israel is not the church! You might have to read that chapter again, lol.
Read Rms 11. Do you think Israel is really the church?
There are some who believe that only believing Israelis will be spared, as opposed to a bunch of new Christians. Who knows, it might be a mixture of new and old believers. However, the remanent of Israel will be saved.
The calling of Israel is irrevocable. You see that salvation has come to the Gentiles because Israel has rejected Jesus, but do you believe that once all Gentile believers are saved that all Israel will believe? As Romans 11 says. I think believers were saved by faith in the o.t. also. Not by blood sacrifices.
If only they would! Some in fact do. However, God says they won't all turn until later.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:25â€-â€¬29 KJV
I never said you did. There are people who believe that God divorced the nation of Israel and replaced her with the church.
God placed Israel were they are now. He raises up nations and brings them down as He pleases.
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. Romans 11:15-16
One day the nation of Israel will receive Jesus Christ and when they do it will result in the Resurrection. When the firstfruit (Israel) becomes holy through faith then the whole lump (Christians) will be holy.
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. Romans 11:1, 11, 13-14
Paul was still an Israelite according to heredity. He wouldn't want God to cast away His people because he would then be cast away being an Israelite himself. Paul also says that salvation has come to Gentiles because Israel rejected Christ. He also says he hopes to provoke to emulation them which are his flesh and save some of them. Those are Israelis, not Christians. So how can some act as if the church is physical Israel? As if we are all physical descendants of Abraham.
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Romans 7:2â€-â€¬3 KJV
This seems to be the only exception. Of course, disobedience is allowed, but then the husband can't become a pastor or deacon. I really can't find any examples of a believer dumping their spouse and God being okay with them getting married to someone else other than because of death. If it were allowed, I would think there would be an example or two of someone actually doing it.
I agree some with John Gill. One thing that I disagree with is there was no original permission of divorce.
But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. Mark 10:6, 8-9 KJV
Way before the Mosaic law came to be, God disallowed divorce.
He goes on to say divorce was allowable in no case, saving for the cause of fornication. He should of stopped there, lol. There are verses dealing specifically with adultery. I believe fornication really means fornication in context. If a man married a woman under false pretenses that she was a virgin, he may get a do over. Mainly because the woman was to be killed as you pointed out. The same thing would happen if a woman got caught committing adultery, so it might not matter to much anyways if it was meant more restrictively or about sexual promiscuity of any sort. Gill doesn't say anything about remarriage here, which I think is biblical.