John UK wrote: 1) Amazing. One minute Jesus is teaching in John 3:16 that God sent him to be the Saviour of the world, not merely Jews, and then later on in John 10 you reckon he is talking just to the Jews. 2) John 10:26 KJV 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Jesus did not stupidly say, "Ye believe not, because ye are not believers." Jesus is saying here that the reason why they did NOT believe, is because they were NOT chosen as sheep. 3) listen to your pastor's prayer today? How did he pray for lost sinners?
1) God sent the Son into the world because He loved the world (John 3:16). Yet, Jesus said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt 15:24)." 2) John 6:45 says,"Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." John 8:42 says,"If God were your Father, ye would love me". So why then were they not sheep? God was not their Father for they did not listen and learn from Him. Jesus was telling them they were not of His flock (of those who obeyed the Father) therefore they could not now believe. John 8:47 "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." 3) I forget, will listen again.
Lurker wrote: 1) God broke to establish a better new covenant with better promises.... eternal life. Paul called it the law of faith. 2) Deut 30:1-5 is chronological and explains what God proposed to do to redeem His people. Deut 30:6-10 is also chronological but in this thought from the mind of God He reveals the means by which He will accomplish what He proposed... Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you... 3) Love of God (faith) and obedience to His voice is the result, not the cause, of a circumcised heart.
1) Don't you mean the Mosaic covenant was broken and not the Abrahamic? Not that I believe God has replaced Israel. 2) I don't see a break between Deut 30:1-5 and 6-10 because of the word "Moreover" which means in addition too what was just said. Also, the circumcision of heart hasn't yet happened to Israel. For all Israel will be saved and God will take away their sins (Rms 11:26-27) And they do not all know Him as they will (Jer. 32:33-34). Ezekiel 36:26 has not happened yet. 3) I have been asked who here has ever said regeneration occurs before faith, here you go!
John UK wrote: 1)Then who exactly are these sheep? - Matthew 25:31-33 KJV 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
2) John 10:26 KJV 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. Jesus did not stupidly say, "Ye believe not, because ye are not believers."
1) Matt 25:32 is about sheep out of every nation, but remember it is at a different time. In John 10 He was here to minister to the Jews only. It wasn't until His ascension that He commands the gospel to be preached into all the world. 2) Just because you don't understand what Jesus meant doesn't make Him the stupid one! Why do you think He spoke in parables or why do you think they had to be made blind? Because they were able to believe otherwise, but God did not want them to at that time. They were not allowed to believe because they had not previously believed.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: not much time, so a drive by comment, J4J, show me anywhere in this thread that anybody has said that there those in Christ who are not believers. The point you are missing is where faith originates, all of believe you must place that faith in the finished work of Christ to be saved.
"You got the order all mixed up" referred me to the CARMA website which says that regeneration is prior to faith. I was explaining why I disagreed with it. Regeneration is in Christ, therefore to say one is regenerated prior to faith is to say people can be in Christ who are not believers. Faith is belief and trust in Jesus. It describes what we do and originates within us through the preaching of the word of God which is able to make one wise for salvation.
John UK wrote: John 10:16 KJV 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Who hears the voice of Jesus? Fore-ordained sheep. John 10:26-29 KJV 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Can the sheep ever be lost? No. Can any other than sheep believe? No. Why not? Because faith is only given to the sheep. Surely that is unfair? No it is not unfair. Why not? Because the whole world is guilty before God
The sheep were Jews who were believers. They were Jews because that is who He was sent to and they were believers because they heard His voice. The other sheep were other believers who didn't yet hear the gospel and become disciples of Christ, but they were going to because they already believed in God.
Lurker... I was hoping you would read it because of limited space. It says in Deut. 30:1-10, after the prophecy is fulfilled in chapter 29, if "you return to The Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again...And the Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it;...Moreover The Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, in order that you may live...And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which i command you today...if you obey the Lord your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and soul." They must return to the Lord and obey (v1) and then God will circumcise their heart (verse 6). If they obey His commandments, if they turn to the Lord (verse 10), He will fulfill verses 7,8, and 9. Verse 11 is referred to in Romans 10:6-9 about faith, so I believe it pertains to New Testament believers also.
Lurker wrote: Of course it is, silly, unless you think God has a different plan of redemption for Gentiles than He does for the first children of promise. Israel's hearts would be circumcised by God to turn them back to Him but Gentiles would, by their own freewill, circumcise their own hearts. Is that it?
No it's not! I hope you and anybody who cares to know the truth will read Deuteronomy 30:1-10. Verse 6 is preceded by Israel being regathered back into the land which their fathers possessed by faith. Verse 6 is also followed by God promising to prosper them if they obey the Lord their God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in the book of the law, if they turn to the Lord their God with all their heart and soul (Deut. 30:10). It wasn't Christians who were supposed to keep His commandments written in the book of the law (though we keep them in Christ). Also, they are to believe first before receiving these promises, including verse 6. Furthermore, verse 11 says, "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach." Contrary to Calvinist beliefs, faith is not too difficult for us or out of our reach as if God must lift us up to get it.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: He actually just reflected the voice, tense, mood that is in the original greek. Not being a greek scholar, but you can verify the accuracy of this easily in the Blue Letter Bible website, I offer the explanation we see by Paul Viggiano. http://www.branchofhope.org/documents/firstjohn/1jn3_4_9.PDF
My issue is with the CARM website interpreting 1 John 5:1 in such a way as to make it sound like those people were already born again prior to believing. I'm not a Greek scholar either so I have to try and rely on trustworthy translations, which none used the term "has been". That doesn't neccesarily mean the CARM website misinterpreted those passages but I don't know for sure and kind of doubt that they interpreted them correctly when the KJV and NASB doesn't interpret them like that. Also, many passages teach we are saved through faith (Eph 2:8). None, that I know of teach, faith through salvation. It is only after one believes are they marked in Him with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13). The Holy Spirit gives life (2 Cor. 3:6). Therefore, one must believe first in order to have eternal life. The Bible doesn't appear to teach irresistible grace prior to faith anywhere in it.
Helps wrote: 1)Romans 8:30 What "calling" is referred to here? 1 Thess 1.4,5 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost.. A calling that comes with power and the Holy Ghost. 1 Thess 2.13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. A word which works effectually in some but not others?! 2 Tim 1.9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began A holy calling? According to his own purpose and grace? Given in Christ before the world began? 2) Where is any of this in your theology?
1) To whom did the calling work effectually in? 1 Thess 2:13 says it was "you that believe". None of these verses speak of being enabled to believe, being given Faith by God, or being irresistably made to believe. They did so freely. 2) Many called, few chosen. Saved by grace. We are not in Christ unless we first believe.
Lurker wrote: Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. To "love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul" is the outworking of faith. "The just shall live by faith" hence "that thou mayest live." Pay special attention to "the LORD thy God **will** circumcise thine heart". It doesn't say "might" or "will try" or "subject to your approval". It says WILL..... Sounds certain to me that what God sets His mind to accomplish will be accomplished. Those He regenerates are regenerated without fail.... without any chance His will could be thwarted by a negative decision by who He calls. In Calvinism speak, this is called "Irresistable Grace" but in Christian speak it's called biblical. Reject it at your own peril.
This is not a proof-text for irresistible grace! Deu 30:1-2 is a prophecy about Israel being scattered throughout various nations and says if Israel recalls the previously stated prophecy and returns to the Lord their God and obeys Him with all their heart and soul then He will restore Israel as a nation back to the Promise Land. Read it, they are already believers!
John UK wrote: John, good sound doctrine does not come from a proof text. That is the way to get false doctrine, and is how cults arrive at bizarre beliefs. What I ran out of space saying, is that all my doctrines come from a serious study of the entire Bible. That is why it is impossible to pass on such effort to others in a little space like this. I tell you what, you can answer your own questions in your own church. How? Next prayer meeting you attend, listen very closely to what your elders pray when it comes to the evangelistic work of the fellowship. What do they ask God for, when it comes to sinners who will hear the word preached. You see, if God is not involved in granting grace to a sinner, which affects him upon hearing the word, then there is no need to pray for the sinner. You have said that God does nothing, as man has the capacity to believe. So have a listen tomorrow, and report your findings.
If you really believe what you just said then you will no longer quote scripture to prove a point! We both know that won't happen, so why is it the case for your secret doctrine of post-preaching, pre-faith enabling which someone cannot help but believe? I think because you know it isn't there.
John UK wrote: It would be well to consider this aspect in great detail, because without a new birth, a sinner cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. But there is no instruction in the Bible as to how to be born again. Why not? Because man is incapable of achieving such a thing. The closest we can get to it is here: 1 Peter 1:23 KJV 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Hebrews 4:12 KJV 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. But not all sinners who hear the same word are quickened by it. This is why we pray that God quickens the people who hear that living word, otherwise it will have no effect on them at all. BTW I am not a proof-texter, John. oos
So between the preaching of the word of God and belief, you believe in a super secret enlightening/enabling which you won't reveal because you are not a "proof-texter"? Really though there is no such pre-faith enabling to be pointed to as a proof-text.
John UK wrote: 1)But, lo and behold, there is no instruction or commands in the Bible as to how to "get born again". 2)There is nothing you can do to get born again, it is an act of God, and he brings to birth whomever he will. John 1:12-13 KJV 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 3) Now once a person is born again, he cannot help but believe and turn from sin. 4) It is a new nature which does this, and the new nature must come first.
1) Believers were born again in those verses. Being born again means someone has received eternal life, correct? If that is right, then "whoever believes may in Him have eternal life." John 3:15. But aren't we talking about enlightening instead? Or do you consider them the same? 2) We can work for the food which endures to eternal life (John 6:27). We are to wash away our sins, calling on His name (Acts 22:16). 3) You have not shown where in scripture it says this and I didn't expect you could, just want to point it out to you. So then why be dogmatic about it or even believe it for that matter? 4) 2 Cor 5:17
you got the order all mixed up wrote: John for Jesus it is regeneration before faith not faith before regeneration. That is where you are having an issue. http://carm.org/does-regeneration-precede-faith
I went to the website and read it. I agree with the premise that we are born again from above, not of ourselves, but then the writer of the article goes off about how we are born again prior to faith which is unscriptural. He even goes so far as to change the words of 1 John 2:29, 3:9, 4:7, and 5:1 to try and prove his point.
Try again! John 3 just says that we must be born again, it doesn't teach that anyone who becomes enlightened has no ability to reject God's will for them to believe. By "enlightening" I mean to be given knowledge that Jesus is true and having the ability to believe. Would you agree? Also, I don't even see where in John 3 regeneration is recurring prior to faith! Help me out there. Lastly, go to The Woodstock Baptist Church website or app and see for yourself if I have experienced anointed preaching of the gospel, if you are truly worried about it.
John UK... So if I understand you correctly, there isn't a scripture you can point to that proves the Calvinist/Reformed belief that once enlightened, a person cannot reject God's will for that person to believe? If it isn't taught in scripture why believe it? And why be so dogmatic about it?
From what I gather, most Calvinist believe that God enables people to believe supernaturally, but so do Arminians. Calvin agreed with Arminius up to that point but then disagreed with him that people could then choose to believe or not. So where is the evidence that, once enlightened, people can't help but believe? Is it only implied, and if it is, couldn't somebody just as easily imply that to believe is a choice?
CV wrote: J4J 1) You belive that in conversion, man has a part. 2) But in your discussions here your arguement is that from start to finish, it is all God. 3) God indeed is gracious, and you can support that from scripture. But Gods work stops short of salvation. From start to finish, it takes two sides to complete the work. 4) You put man in the work of salvation. 5) You have to account for the all important work man brings to salvation.
1) Yes 2) Start to finish, salvation is of the Lord. People have to convert by faith to following Jesus upon hearing the gospel. Faith is not a work of salvation. Faith was not a work of the law that Jesus had to fulfill in order to remain righteous. 3) Salvation is one sided, as far as the work, it is all of God. Salvation is one sided, as far as faith, it is only to those who believe. 4) No and you can't show where I ever said that. 5) Salvation isn't brought or given to anybody by God unless they believe.