Lurker wrote: Full preterism? Built on the assumption everything was fulfilled 70 AD. If that be true, then the proponents should be able to write entire books explaining how and when all the mysterious events of the Revelation were fulfilled in historic reality. They should be able to identify all the mysterious figures and match them up with 1st century AD realities. I'm not aware of any such books. Anyway, the reason I replied to your question was I had just read the Revelation the evening before and it was fresh in my mind. And, of course, Steve's egging me on prompted me to look into the idea you posted about the 24 elders and I'm glad I did. I needed to work that through anyway. Why was the seals on the book removed? "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God". The Lamb was worthy being the only one to fulfill the law.
Preterism? Is that what they believe? Sounds a bit odd to me, well, extremely odd.
The other thing, that little book? Now Lurker, it is not like you to speculate. Not that speculating is wrong, if there is sufficient inference. Mind you, the tablets were locked away in the ark of the covenant, along with a pot of manna and Aaron's rod that budded.
Dorcas wrote: John And.. "Who (Jesus Christ) was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification ". Romans 4:25. Those are shouting ground words
They are indeed, Dorcas. Here is another textlet which I favour highly:
1 Corinthians 1:30-31 KJV (30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Michael Hranek wrote: Brother Saint John UK Wales Scripture tells us clearly: He (or she) who has the Son has life.
I believe you and I are in agreement CH Spurgeon had a true conversion to the real Jesus Christ, in the obedience of faith he looked to Him alone to save him from his sins, testified of it, and spoke much of the Savior, his preaching is rich and deep with Jesus Christ, whom I believe he served to the best of his understanding But sadly I know personally a pastor who had a "Revelation of Calvinism" (said so) and it changed him (imho badly) his mission became one of converting others to Calvinism or "excommunicating" them if they didn't
It can so easily happen, brother Saint Michael. We get some understanding, and immediately want others to have exactly the same. It can be a sidetrack, leading to Bunyan's "Enchanted Ground" via "Bypass Meadow" into "Doubting Castle", where all is gloomy and dark and depressing.
Spurgeon's answer was to preach CHRIST, the REAL, LIVING, CHRIST. Not some theological concept, or mathematical formula, but a real Person who loves sinners, died for sinners and rose again, and now receives sinners who come to him in faith. What a Saviour is JESUS!
Dorcas wrote: One verse that has always been a comfort.. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out". John 6:37 Amen!
Amen Dorcas. I'll add another one...
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV (16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
James Thomas wrote: Good Morning to you! St John of UK, I am not sure what else it could be other than the law. A Look at verse Romans 2:12 validates the Scriptural interpretation that Brother Lurker provided.
Saint James, I don't see what Romans 2:12 has to do with it. Please?
As for: Revelation 5:1-2 KJV (1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. (2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
If it was the law, or even some scriptures, how come it was sealed up? Would it not rather be to do with endtime prophecy which had never been seen before? I don't know the answer, just grappling with it.
Michael Hranek wrote: Saint John Wales To continue my thought: Real Faith reads the Bible as a revelation of Jesus Christ and yes more than that too But essentially as a revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ to us the Doctrine of Christ Eph 3:16,17 comes to mind here False faith reads the Bible as a revelation of some kind of "Calvinism" (or something else) Real faith by the grace of God with God's own revelation of His Son puts ones faith in the Son of God False faith with a (different) revelation of (hyper) Calvinism, or some other ism puts their faith in their ism Spurgeon's faith was in Christ NOT Calvinism
Yes I like your thoughts, St Michael.
The very best gospel messages are those that make much of the Lord Jesus Christ and his work on our behalf, especially HIM CRUCIFIED, that we might put our trust in HIM, and receive the forgiveness of sins along with that all-important imputed righteousness. There will be plenty of time later, as we study the word, to grapple with the mechanics of it all, as the Bible does give us some information on the subject. But the sinner in the street does not need such depthy theological stuff.
However, don't expect Calvinium Catechists to understand that.
Michael Hranek wrote: Saint John Wales What we are discussing regarding true faith vs false faith strikes at the heart of what it means to be a Christian (genuine) For anyone who by the grace of God places their faith in Jesus Christ, they have (even if it may take much learning and growing up into) assurance of righteousnes, eternal life, no condemnation ... ultimately the JOY of God's salvation and therefore love to worship and follow our Savior, the Holy Spirit experientially bearing witness with their spirits they are indeed a child of God.
Amen St Michael, it reminds me of one of my favourite Bible verses:
Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV (13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
The "earnest" of the Spirit is a guarantee of our inheritance with all the saints. He is like a down payment, and all the rest of the blessings in Christ will be sure to follow, as God never changes his mind. Praise the Lord!
Michael Hranek wrote: Brother Saints John and Mike Can we say true faith is in the Lord Jesus Christ I am of course speaking of the One whom God Himself speake of in the Bible, Who He reveals and identifies in Scripture and testifies is the real One by His Spirit and false faith is in something else ... maybe like John Calvin & Augustine, TULIP, Dhordt, the WCF or even infant sprinkling
Yes I think we can say that is biblical, St Michael. Some look to these things, some even look to their faith, others look to goosebumps: but we will continue to look to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Mike wrote: God is not pleased with lack of faith, no argument there. Numerous bible verses point to it. But faith being the gift of God, as you say, you would have God displeased with himself for not giving the gift to the non-elect. Odd theology.
St Mike, you raise the most interesting points, things that all the other saints hardly ever mention, if ever. But it is most true that God is displeased with unbelief, even describing it as worse than lawbreaking.
James Thomas wrote: Saint John of UK, Brother Lurker has provided the Scriptural interpretation that the book in question would be....The Law.
Good morning St James. Yes I think that was what St Lurker was hinting at. I believe a lot of the Revelation was previously foretold by the prophets of old, so it could well have been The Law. But not necessarily, as other books have been written within and without as we know, a multitude. ____________
Saint Lurker, thanks for the extra scriptures and greek concerning the thrones, it's very interesting. I just wish I had more brainpower to take it all in and work it all out. Them Revelations sure are cloudy. I used to try the commentaries to see if they would help, but it seems theologians had a hard time of it as well, some saying that it had all come to pass already. Could it be?
Interesting Christian group, Jim. "Reaching Catholics For Christ" has a good confession of belief, part of which is reproduced below, and which needs to be understood by every believer in these last days.
"The ground of justification ever remains solely the righteousness of Jesus Christ. This righteousness from God is imputed to sinners by faith alone. Faith secures the righteousness of Christ for justification. Good works done in faith, even though prompted by a desire to please God, are never the ground of justification. Neither is faith itself the ground of justification. Salvation is by the grace of God (a free gift) and not through the grace of God (infused power for ethical improvement). Those who are so justified are adopted into the Family of God. They become, as children of God, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life."
It is this important statement which will always separate the RCC from the true church until the Lord's return.
Jim Lincoln wrote: John of UK, let's hope the reversals are more than just a few.
I think they will be, Jim. Even governments are now having to acknowledge that Islam is not a minority militant faction, but that the religion is a major force for evil. We see only the thin end of the wedge at the moment, but that wedge will emerge at some point, for everyone to see, precipitating greater scenes than these we are seeing in Germany.
revealing wrote: How do you tell the difference between true faith and false faith?
1 John 3:4-11 KJV (4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (5) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. (6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (11) For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
I believe I did answer the original question, Steve. What do you think, John? Did I answer your question? John seemed to think the crowns implied post resurrection probably because of 2 Tim 4:8 but that wouldn't answer the crowns on the heads of locusts (Rev 9:7), the 7 heads of the dragon (Rev 12:3) or the 10 crowns on the 10 horns of the sea beast (Rev 13:1). Crowns don't always imply victory over death. As far as the identity of the 24 elders, I honestly don't know. If you can help both John and me out with that, I'm open for instruction.
You sure did, Lurker. I figured that spirits could not have crowns because of there being no heads.
The 24 elders: seeing as the New Jerusalem had 12 foundations of apostles and twelve walls of 12 tribes of Israel, I thought the elders might be figurative for these 24.
Now this little book.........
SteveR, if you wish to have a shot at this, do please have a go at edification rather than condemning us all and sundry.
Lurker wrote: Before the resurrection, John. The first clue is "and is to come" (Rev 4:8). While the Revelation is not chronological beginning to end, chapters 4-6 are. So observe at the opening of the 5th seal....... Rev 6:9-10 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? The souls and innocent blood of God's people had not yet been avenged. Now scroll forward to the first resurrection....... Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. See also Rev 20:4 for the resurrection of the souls under the altar...... same as those mentioned in 19:2.
Thanks Lurker. I'm in the Revelations on my daily readings, and it never fails to make my head spin.
Revelation 4:8-11 KJV (8) And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (9) And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, (10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, (11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Does anyone know if this passage is referring to a time after the resurrection, seeing as these twenty four elders appear to have been resurrected and received their crowns?