Mike wrote: You need not worry, bro, the so-called secret rapture not only is not a doctrine, it won't be much of a secret.
Brother Mike I can't help but believe that when the trumpet sounds, the Lord Jesus Christ will come in flaming fire with all the holy angels, stopping time, separating the sheep from the goats, ushering to judgment, burning up the heavens and the earth with fire, and bringing in eternity. That's just as I see scripture, and there is nothing I can do about it.
Others believe otherwise - also from their understanding of scripture - and I will not refuse fellowship with any who are born from above, being children of God, blood washed and redeemed by Christ.
The all important thing is...... YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN..... .....and we will all agree on that.
There was a time in the UK when every schoolchild could recite the Lord's Prayer, because it was a part of the morning assembly, as was learning Psalm 23, and at least hearing some of the Bible read. God's elect benefited I'm sure from that sort of input over the years. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God".
Christopher000 wrote: Mike from New York writes: Christopher000 wrote: Thanks, Moderator Beta. Any issues still, US? Assume it is working now. Had the same issue on 2 computers and my phone. Strange how it seemed to be restricted to some, but others had no issues at all. I didn't experience any problems. I thought it was pretty odd that everyone seemed to take a break at the same time...ha-ha.
Don't worry Christopher, the so-called secret rapture is not a biblical doctrine, so everyone is still here on the earth. I'm out of town, but still able to post. But there's not very much on the news that I'm interested in, so that's why I haven't been involved.
I believe in particular redemption, but I don't have a problem with John 3:16 like some have. That's okay.
But in the sort of work I do out on the streets, my gospel is not John 3:16, because sinners out there need some groundwork first. Telling them that God loves them is neither here nor there. They need to hear about things they've never heard of concerning the Lord Jesus Christ: his creation of the world, his deity, his incarnation, his perfect sinless life, his sacrificial death as a propitiation for sin, his resurrection and ascension, his coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead.
YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN
The sinner needs to understand he is under the wrath of God, that there is nothing he can do to save himself, that he deserves the lake of fire for rebellion against God, that he is a sinner who has broken God's law from birth, and that only through faith in Jesus Christ can he be saved and made a new creature in Christ.
If there is no conviction of sin by the Holy Ghost, I do not encourage anyone to say a prayer; there has to be conviction of sin which produces true repentance of sin, leading to calling on the name of the Lord.
Matthew 11:18-19 (18) For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. (19) The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
SC, what do you think Jesus meant when he said, "The Son of man came eating and drinking..."
Wild West Anne, I'm very grateful for your input on this. I met some Mormons once in Minehead, Somerset, while I was out tracting, and I spoke to them about Jesus. They said they were lapsed Mormons because they were enjoying a beaker of coffee. I felt very sad for them, that they only had a religion but not Christ. But I gave them some great literature, and they both promised to read through them.
B. McCausland wrote: 1. Yes, attitude was a flaw attached to a real out-of-scope practice also. 2. There seems indication of a more regular observance in the NT E.G. " *as often* (means whenever, not yearly) as ye eat ... ye do shew the Lord's death till he come" Also Ac 2:46
1. Sorry I do not understand what your point is. They met to take the Lord's Supper; they drank too much and got drunk; Paul admonished them for their callous attitude.
2. Yes I can agree with that, and many churches also would agree. Many have communion twice a month, some every day. But there are churches who hold it once a year, in keeping with the Passover it replaced. Both Passover and the Lord's Supper were/are symbolic celebrations of the work of Christ, completed at Calvary, whereby sinners can be justified (declared just - perfectly righteous in the sight of God). The first sacrifice was type, the last the antitype. Acts 2:46 is not certain that "breaking bread from house to house" meant the Lord's Supper, it could have just been a fellowship meal.
The following is a definition of judaizers as found in wiki:
Judaizers is a term for Christians who insist that their co-religionists should follow the Law of Moses. This term is most widely known from its single use in the Greek New Testament (Galatians 2:14) where Paul publicly challenges Peter for compelling gentile converts to Early Christianity to "judaize",also known as the Incident at Antioch.
This term includes groups who claim the necessity of continued obedience to the Law of Moses found in the first five books of the Old Testament. Members of such groups, notably the Seventh-day Adventist Church, dispute the use of the term because "Judaizers" is typically used as a pejorative.
I believe this definition to be correct, but I am always available to be corrected.
I don't think Sister B is of the above belief, but she can always confirm that she believes in justification through faith alone in Christ alone.
Galatians 3:1-5 (1) O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. (5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
The ones who bewitched the Galatians were judaizers. But if Sister B maintains justification through faith alone in Christ alone and to God be the glory alone, then it is impossible for her to be a judaizer.
Maybe she would like to reply and put the matter straight.
Kev wrote: That's good you have pointed out BMC's error and I hope you will do the same for me if you see me in such a predicament Brother John. We know however this won't be taken well. We all must be aware of modern day judaizers who try and impose laws that are not according to scripture like in the book of Galatians which brother Dave pointed out.
Hi Kev, I think a modern day judaizer would have to keep to the same principle, that of law keeping in order to salvation. I don't think Sister B fits into that category, as she has already conceded that drinking in moderation is not a sin, and not a detriment to salvation. Her take is on a different level. I think.
Mike wrote: Bro, there seems an effort to overcomplicate the issue, (which man seems fond of) but here's my take. Grape harvest is later in the year than Passover, with early harvest no earlier than mid to late May in that part of the world. So that which was used at Passover would have been from the previous harvest. No refrigeration requires storing it another way, and fermentation into wine is how it is done. There was no grape juice as such available at Passover time. The simplest answer may be the most reasonable, no?
Mike, I think you've hit the grape dead centre with that answer. Phew! You're right, too simple for some. So, for much of the year, alcoholic wine was the only wine available, especially at Passover. This puts a whole new light on the subject. Little wonder Paul said, "Be not drunk with wine..."
Sister B, I think it unfair to Kev that you imagine him trying to find a "license" to drink alcohol.
In my book, all of Kev's points thus far have been on the button, and fully scriptural.
On any subject regarding behaviour or lifestyle, we always ask, "What does GOD say about it?"
Sister B, it is clear that the Passover was an actual meal, a roast lamb, which needed time for preparation.
Mark 14:12 (12) And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
It was at this particular Passover that the Lord instituted the communion we have today.
I have not found sufficient reason in scripture to change the format into that which we have today. Not saying it is wrong, just that scripture seems silent on that.
So when Paul said, "It is not to eat the Lord's Supper", I reckon he was referring to the attitude rather than the event itself.
As for the Jews today being subservient to tradition (rather than scriptural instruction), sure, that was a problem they had even in Bible days. But it does not mean that everything they did was incorrect. They could be spot on.
Not being either a theologian or historian, and with little in the Bible to go on, I am at a loss as to getting to the truth of the matter.
Maybe we should hold the Supper once a year (as was the Passover) and make much more of it than we do, say a several hour celebration. The Jews celebrated only deliverance from Egypt; we should celebrate more.
B. McCausland wrote: John, can you provide the evidence for this? Just curious Thanks
Good morning Sister B.
Several years ago I was investigating this, and did not get very far in my research. I had a friend in Devon, England who was attending a Messianic Jew type church locally. I asked him what they were using at the communion table, and he said that they used a wine similar in strength to a sherry, round about 12% proof. I figured they would want to keep the traditional strength used in the Jewish Passover, especially as Jews who continue with Passover (I'm led to believe) also use the same or similar.
And then there is Kev's point about the early church using quite strong wine at the Lord's table, which some were partaking of too much and getting drunk. The disciples would all have celebrated Passover since birth, and also in the last three years of our Saviour's life. The present method of taking communion is quite different to the way the Jews celebrated Passover, which would be to have several large cups filled and passed around, at the several stages of the meal.
I figured it may have been a health thing, like the Brethren, who use strong wine and silver cup to prevent germs.