R. K. Borill wrote: John UK writes: Observer, I've been looking for an answer to a certain question, and no-one has yet stepped up the plate. It is in regard to the Presby belief that circumcision has been replaced by baptism and that children of believers are to be baptised in anticipation of new birth because they are immediately in the covenant of grace Jude 1:10 KJV  But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Rather an odd text to quote at me, who am saved by grace through faith, and that, not of myself, it is the gift of God. But then, you are rather an odd person, so odd texts suits your style.
I ask questions, seeking to learn, and you call me a brute beast. Perhaps you'd better explain yourself, lest the Lord break out against you. I believe the Lord chastises or judges, even if you do not.
But better still, why not try to answer the question please? If you believe the Abrahamic covenant was THE covenant of grace to ALL his offspring, how many of Abraham's eight children were saved and are now in heaven? Ignoring the question will not make it go away! ______________
Observer wrote: John UK Thanks bro for clarifying. Sounds bout right to me in relation to Presby of a thousand monikers.
Observer, I've been looking for an answer to a certain question, and no-one has yet stepped up the plate. It is in regard to the Presby belief that circumcision has been replaced by baptism and that children of believers are to be baptised in anticipation of new birth because they are immediately in the covenant of grace.
Thusly, I thought that if true, then all of Abraham's immediate children must also have been in the covenant of grace and are now in heaven. Now Abraham "seeded" eight children. Were all of these included in the covenant of grace and are now in heaven?
The point I am making is that if not all of Abraham's natural born children were included by God in the covenant of grace (thus elect souls), then the argument for such in the new covenant does not hold any water.
mourner wrote: People who come to Christ out of unchurched backgrounds, who have been openly lawless are more likely to have dramatic experiences. But what of those who have been nurtured all their lives in the truth. God's dealings with them are no less effectual, just less dramatic?
Quite so. You have a friend in one George Whitefield who, despite having a rather dramatic conversion, came to understand that not all men had such an experience, but that many came rather gently into the fold. However, the "seven certain signs" were evident in all God's people, because God was working in them to will and to do according to his good purpose. "Spiritual Life" is not a concept but a reality in the life of one who is born again by the Spirit, likened to a "resurrection from the dead".
Observer wrote: John bro Seems we have many who despite all the helps at our fingertips still remain ignorant on the Bible and experiential matters. We certainly live in lamentable days. If the people reflect the character of the pastors, then we've got to wonder about the men in the ministry, eh?
Aye Aye. I'm thankful for having a very sound Bible teacher come locally.
Observer wrote: Well bro, I appreciate your approach which is spot on. Not blowin' smoke n all, but only someone with a grasp of the Bible would be prepared to state the truth for all to have a pot shot at. GSTexas' testimony was strong and clear. These are exactly the issues that JY needs to come to terms with, but I'm afraid certain ignoramuses have been soothing his falsely assured soul so as he's become hardened to the truth.
Precisely put, bro. Yes, we should have more gospel-oriented posting, lest there be others like John Yurich who have fallen for the "easy believe with no responsibility" gospel. It is a misunderstanding of the glorious doctrine of justification by faith alone.
No Cross = No Crown
No Works = No Faith
No Faith = Lost!
Raising a hand at the close of meeting, or signing a decision card =
During times of revival, convicted sinners would stay behind after the meeting and sometimes would be praying all night, pleading with God for his mercy and forgiveness. It's a far cry from raising a hand and saying "Yes" to Jesus.
Observer wrote: Hey Bro! How u doin? How is it that you're always embroiled in controversy? BTW, for its worth, I agree with you, bro Michael H, bro Lurker, 3 Certain, Been, bro GSTexas etc. Another issue where its the Presbys understanding vs the Biblical Baptist understanding - what a surprise! Good to see so many understand the issues clearly.
Hi bro, good to hear from you. Well the answer to your question is that I write out the truth, and then the controversialists respond to it. I know they can't help it, but maybe they can be helped.
GSTexas wrote: I was a false convert for many years....
Thank you GS for showing how mental assent can lead folks astray until they fully understand the gospel message and respond to it.
challenge wrote: Oh Dear!! There are many on this site who have remarked that they cannot find a true church local to them. Fellowship then would be out of their reach. So "not a true Christian???"
I think you will find that there are many on this site who enjoy good Christian fellowship right here, and it is why they are here. A genuine Christian will always desire fellowship with others of like mind, not only for encouragement, but to give to others also.
Greswald wrote: But John the Bible teaches that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. You cannot get much "longer" than that, even if you didn't know of the mystery of His will!!
Sure, I know that, but when I was born I was "in Adam" and a slave of sin and Satan. I can tell you the exact moment when I was set free and placed "in Christ", having my will conformed to the will of God, being born again of the incorruptible word of God and washed in the blood of the Lamb. Or as Paul puts it, I became a "new creature", all things became new.
Michael Hranek wrote: Recently my wife and I visited a local Baptist Church where I am sorry to relate when I asked the head of their outreach when he had been saved, his response was that he had always been a Christian. How can anyone who doesn't know what it genuinely means to know God in the new birth, and has no personal testimony that conversion is real with them, possibly lead the outreach of a local church, no matter how nice, humanly speaking they might be?
Ah yes. "Always been a Christian". No such person. But we have multitudes in our country who would say exactly the same. Some of them aren't even interested in being born again, because their "church" tells them they were born again at baby baptism.
Are there CERTAIN signs of true conversion? Oh yes there are, mourner. And if the signs are missing, there is no true conversion. It is the Lord who puts the signs there not man, and the Lord's handiwork is recognisable to those who know their Bible. But then, most Presbies don't know their Bible, which is why they get in such a mixup.
Oh, and Michael, when a new convert gets shunned for being born again, it's time to leave the church and find a better one!
Michael Hranek wrote: I have a friend in Tennessee with the testimony of being a good Baptist woman, knowing the right words to say, being immersed, singing in the choir, working in VBS (vacation Bible school) who shared with me and others, how later on in life God convicted her that she really didn't know Jesus Christ, that she was still a sinner and lost and needed to be saved. And she really "got saved" (born again) and knew it, that God had saved her, and it became her great JOY to tell of being a lost church member and how God had saved her, something that got her shunned when she upset certain "church" people in telling about it.
Thrilling to hear a clear cut testimony like that, Michael.
It just goes to show that church elders, whose job it is to lead and guide all in the church, need to really learn the basics of what a genuine conversion actually is, and how to recognise the grace of God.
Peter Masters of the Met Tab in London wrote an excellent booklet on the subject, called "Seven Certain Signs of True Conversion" which is easy to read, and very easy to evaluate one's own spiritual state, every point being taken straight from scripture. No-one need be in the dark about this all-important subject of confirmation.
R. K. Borill wrote: John UK writes: To be saved, a sinner MUST touch the hem of his garment, MUST see in Christ the slain lamb, MUST humble themselves before the holy God and acknowledge their guilt, MUST call upon the name of the Lord, MUST close with Christ. R, K. Borill responds, These all sounds good, but this is not what the Bible says. The gospel is none of these...
So you think a sinner can be saved without humbling himself before God? That he can be saved without crying out to God, "God be merciful to me, a sinner?" That he can be saved without recognising the atoning value of a subsitute? Without making any contact whatever?
Methinks you do not know what the gospel is, nor have you experienced the quickening of the Spirit, nor the conviction of sin by the Holy Ghost. You've never prayed that God might have mercy on you. Never repented of sin and turned away from it to serve the living and true God.
Alas. Wherever shall you be on Judgment Day?
Surely you are not a hyperman who just waits for God's salvation to come drifting down on the wind, then you say, "Oooh, I think I'm one of God's elect, isn't that nice."
R. K. Borill wrote: John UK from Wales writes: At the Judgment there will be countless folks who vainly imagined themselves to have "faith" but it only turned out to be a "mental assent", especially an assent to their catechism class or easy believism "gospel" preaching. R. K. Borill responds: By definition there is no such thing as "easy believism" . False confession, yes; confusion about what faith is yes, But true faith is a gift from God, and the heart of man is his mind. He has not given us a spirit of fear, but love, power, and a sound mind. This overcomes existential emotionalism which is what has gripped modern religion.
It depends on how "easy believism" is defined. Terms will always be misinterpreted, so I accept your statement about confusion as to what faith is, and false confessions. There will be plenty of those at the Judgment, people recoiling in horror at being cast into the lake of fire because they were misled as to what "faith" actually is. It will be a big shock. Most of the Anglican fraternity and the RCC fraternity will be among these.
At the Judgment there will be countless folks who vainly imagined themselves to have "faith" but it only turned out to be a "mental assent", especially an assent to their catechism class or easy believism "gospel" preaching.
To be saved, a sinner MUST touch the hem of his garment, MUST see in Christ the slain lamb, MUST humble themselves before the holy God and acknowledge their guilt, MUST call upon the name of the Lord, MUST close with Christ.
Labels will not avail in that great day. The question always has been, and always will be, "What think ye of CHRIST?"
For those who are concerned for their soul, and who desire to be saved from the penalty, power, and consequences of sin, the biblical exhortation is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."
Acts 15:1-2 KJV 1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
Please notice that even if you read the whole context, there is no mention here of "baptism replacing circumcision". Funny that the apostles didn't mention that, when confronted with the issue.
The claim that the early church held the Presby version of things is a false claim and ought to be looked at in all sincerity, in seeking out the truth and rejecting the lie.
Well Steve, John Y attends a sacramental church which believes in being born again through water, and I was just saying that your texts prove that if Johnny was truly converted, it was no thanks to the RCC but the Lord did come to him in a nondenominational Baptist Church. The Lord generally comes to his elect when they are either in the word, or in a place which preaches his word.
What I find amazing, is that you can allow John Y a new birth experience, while you anathematise most the rest of us here on SA. Don't you think that is odd?
SteveR wrote: 1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1 Corinthians 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Puts paid to baptismal regeneration or sacramental religion, which benefits no-one.