Bro US, thank you for responding, and be assured that I both love and respect you as a brother in the Lord also, and will not be falling out on account of differences.
But let me be bold and try to gauge your answers, because they were not very clear to me.
The first point, you seemed to be saying that that position is incorrect, so that Christians are not to obey the 4th commandment. Is that what you were saying?
The second point, you accept that CT adherents and others have a Sunday "Sabbath" and refrain from doing their own thing on that day, and that with this you have no issue. Therefore you accept what they do as biblical, having a biblical precedent. Otherwise, you ought to have an issue with it, and reckon it to be unbiblical. Is that fair?
Your third point, and with which you do take issue, is the distinctiveness of CT theology being made binding on all Christian people, which it ought not to be, since it is all a matter of interpretation. You take issue with that, because you believe the CT theology to be a misinterpretation of scripture on this point.
Misinterpreting scripture can be dangerous. The truth is there, surely?
But what you have to find in the Bible is a license for working for money every day of the week.
JuneAnnette wrote: Amen John . . that is why I so value the ministry of Pastor Pickett As I said in a prior post to you, Pastor Michael Pickett touches upon the present day declension . . falling away . . re observance of the Lord's Day in his timely sermon: Lord of the Sabbath 3/29/2009 (SUN) | Bible: Luke 6:5 http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=421091752480 I hope you will give it a listen. btw . . the verse you quoted . . from Neh. 8:10: "The joy of the LORD is your strength" is one of my favorites.
Yes the joy of the Lord is a powerful thing which every Christian can and should have.
I bookmarked the sermon and will either listen to it on the Lord's Day or before if I have time. Thanks. ____
Sr B, yes to your comments, the evidence stacks up. ____
Bro US I've been trying to work out what you would promote. Is it:
1. That Christians, to obey God's 4th commandment, ought to keep Saturday as a day of rest and spiritual exercises and attend a place of worship?
2. That Christians should ignore the 4th commandment and do what they like on all seven days of the week, including making money at their business?
JuneAnnette wrote: I love your enthusiasm John. I hope it's contagious! For the benefit of others, I share an excerpt from: I Love the Lord's Day by Robert Murray McCheyne ...The Lord's day is His property, just as the Lord's Supper is the supper belonging to Christ. It is His table. He is the bread. He is the wine. He invites the guests. He fills them with joy and with the Holy Ghost. So it is with the Lord's day. All days of the year are Christ's, but He hath marked out one in seven as peculiarly His own. . "He hath made it," or marked it out.
Amen, I am enthusiastic because "the joy of the Lord is your strength" and if we lose the one, we lose the other and become weak. Oops, it has happened already and increases. The church down the road has gone apostate. And the one further down the road. And the next....
Just as the unregenerate scorns the glorious gospel and loses his soul, so the professing Christian church is increasingly scornful of all the lessons of the Bible, including the entire history of the Israelites. And thus loses the blessing.
What did he say? "He fills them with joy and with the Holy Ghost."
This is our inheritance, which we have cast aside, preferring carnal freedoms.
JuneAnnette wrote: @John-UK I know you will appreciate this article: I Love the Lord's Day by Robert Murray McCheyne 1841 "The Sabbath was made for man"
REASONS WHY WE LOVE THE LORD'S DAY. I. Because it is the Lord's day. II. Because it is a relic of Paradise and type of Heaven.- III. Because it is a day of blessings. It is a timely read . . http://www.loughbrickland.org/articles/sabbath.shtml
Oh boy, this is certainly a timely read, Sr JA. What a blessing to read through it and see what sort of a blessing the Lord's Day was designed to be in the life of a believer. I am actually being transformed by the renewing of my mind in regard to this, and put it down to the working of God the Holy Ghost in my soul, for which he is to be praised.
Our forefathers in the like faith were certainly far more spiritual, and focused much on the felt presence of the Lord.
Today, there seems to me to be too much carnal and worldly "enjoyment" in so-called worship, which is of the flesh, but mistaken for spirituality.
I will gladly dig out some more from McCheyne's writings. Thanks for posting that one.
I think it true to say that times of revival were and are times of restoration for Christian life.
A believer can be struggling along, trying to grasp principles from the word of God, trying to live aright, failing often, unsure about what scripture says. But when revival comes to that believer, everything becomes clear, the scripture becomes obvious.
It is the presence of the Lord. That is what makes the difference. It is the Spirit infilling again, revealing spiritual truths.
Now what happens in revivals in relation to the Lord's Day?
All on a sudden the day takes on a new meaning, it becomes most precious, it becomes the best day of the week, it is the Lord's Day. No more is the grass cut or the car washed; no more does the sport have any interest; the day becomes a day of fellowship both with the Lord himself and with fellow believers. Six days of working is followed by one day of rest and spiritual exercises.
Every revival I've read about seem to have this one thing in common: a renewal of understanding what the Sabbath is all about. And it is so powerful that even unbelievers "keep the Sabbath".
JuneAnnette wrote: John-UK Pastor Michael Pickett touches upon the present day declension . . falling away . . re observance of the Lord's Day in his timely sermon: Lord of the Sabbath 3/29/2009 (SUN) | Bible: Luke 6:5 http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=421091752480 I listened to it again this AM and hope you will give it a listen as well. I listened to quite a few of his sermons this past week in the hopes of finding this one in particular, as it is a most timely sermon and one that bears upon the present discussion re: observance of the Sabbath and the Ten Commandments. I know it's probably late where you are, so perhaps you can find time during the week. Psalm 118:24 "This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." JA
Yes indeed Sr JA, I will bookmark it and try to find time during the week to have a listen. Thank you.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: You have a couple giants of the faith in Jonathan Edwards and Leonard Ravenhill with their thoughts.
Ahem, Bro US. With respect, if you do a church history research, you will find that by far the majority of respected theologians held to just the same view. It would be you who would have to dig around and find a couple who agreed with yourself. It is more a recent innovation, which has caused such a decline in the church at large.
For more info on why your position is untenable, check out this sermon which I listened to this morning, and which I found most helpful. Steve Richardson is a man like you who takes the Bible for his authority, which is always a wise thing to do.
James Thomas wrote: I haven't Bro. I did try the site. That's Interesting. I hope you are doing well. God's blessing to you.
I am doing well bro thank you. It was the Trinitarian Bible Society which helped me to a balanced understanding of the accuracy of the KJV compared to the other versions. They have plenty of articles on the subject.
Tomorrow I am going to order some hymnbooks from them. They are called "The Psalms of David in Metre".
leonardravenhill wrote: Leonard Ravenhill, author of the book Why Revival Tarries, urged that Christians should keep the Sabbath. His book, however, was a call to prayer. Here the case is made that revival tarries not so much because the Church isn't praying enough but because the Church has abandoned the 4th commandment. Most Christians believe they are no longer obliged to keep the Sabbath command. They might argue that for the Christian every day is the Sabbath. They might insist that they are bound only by the law of love. Most will quote Colossians 2 and Romans 14. So, why should Christians keep the Sabbath? Why were all our forefathers agreed that the 4th commandment was still binding on Christians? What about Colossians 2 and Romans 14? This sermon answers the objections raised by those who say that the Sabbath command is not for Christians. The Sabbath, part 1: Why Revival Tarries http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=95161431160
Most excellent biblical sermon in every aspect. Thanks for posting it. Learned a lot.
That's three sermons already today, by Edwards, Pickett and now Richardson. Feeling blessed.
"Be persuaded to travel in the way that leads to heaven: viz. in holiness, self-denial, mortification, obedience to all the commands of God, following Christâs example [and] in a way of a heavenly life, or imitation of the saints and angels in heaven. Let it be your daily work, from morning till night, and hold out in it to the end. Let nothing stop or discourage you, or turn you aside from this road. And let all other concerns be subordinated to this."
"Seek heaven only by Jesus Christ. â Christ tells us that he is the way, and the truth, and the life. (John 14:6) He tells us that he is the door of the sheep. âI am the door, by me if any man enter in he shall be saved; and go in and out and find pasture.â (John 10:9) If we therefore would improve our lives as a journey towards heaven, we must seek it by him and not by our own righteousness, as expecting to obtain it only for his sake: looking to him [and] having our dependence on him, who has procured it for us by his merit. And expect [that] strength to walk in holiness, the way that leads to heaven, only from him." Jonathan Edwards - Christian Pilgrim
Christopher000 wrote: Hi John, the misconception is that they are terrorists who are perverting Islam and the Koran, which is hardly accurate. Muhammed, and their Koran instructs Muslims, according to their Allah, to convert or murder the infidel, anyone who isn't them. They're not extremists...They're just Muslims who have the wherewithal to actually carry out their Allah's commands.
Good morning Christopher,
Yes I think you are absolutely right. Time will tell. We are entering into a new phase of world history, and I just wish I had the ability to tally scriptural prophecy with what is actually going on in the world today. One thing is for sure, in some parts of the world there is the most awful tribulation right now.
One of the problems of being filled to overflowing with the Spirit is that although the spiritual side is invincible, strong and courageous, the poor body is still a poor body at best, and prone to malfunction if too much is attempted. Look at what happened to that amazing preacher of the gospel George Whitefield.
Our Prime Minister is still referring to Islam as a "good faith", and terrorists as having perverted the faith and gone to extremes.
The Mayor of London condemned the attack, and being a Moslem, claimed it was an attack on "our values". So he has "two values": The values of democracy, and the values of the Koran. I wonder which he really stands up for.
JuneAnnette wrote: @John-UK I am blessed to sit under the God-glorifying, Christ-exalting preaching of Pastor Michael Pickett,a SA member, whose ministry is marked by sound doctrine and the âwholesome words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;â 1 Tim. 6:3 Though he has no doctorate in divinity, nor did he attend seminary, yet he is a man well-taught of God (John 6:45) . . taught of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:13. He is a humble servant of the Lord called to preach the gospel of repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ. His sermons are weighty and soul-searching. He does not shun to proclaim the whole counsel of God. He impresses upon his hearers the necessity of the ânew birthâ, along with the evidence of same, namely a sanctified life, one marked by godliness and holiness without which no man shall see God. Titus 2:12; Heb. 12:14 Though unlearned and unlettered, like Peter & John, yet his preaching is bold & his speech clearly evinces that he has âbeen with Jesus.â (Acts 4:13)
Wow Sr JA, you are blessed indeed. I will have a listen to those messages you mentioned on the Lord's Day, no doubt to my spiritual benefit.
B. McCausland wrote: Yes, John, one wonders if the lack of discernment observed about, has to do with sickness of the heart, false converts filling up churches, or misinterpretations of Scripture
Yes Sr B, and these are just three of the ways this comes about. I'm sure there are a great number of true, born again converts, who are unwittingly sitting under a ministry week by week, who are being led astray in this matter, thinking that unholiness of life is par for the course, so there is no need for concern or diligence. They may start out well, but soon find the spiritual life dimming and their light going out. They focus so much on God's sovereignty that they forget their own responsibility.
Sr JA, amen to your post. I myself have looked up the same website so that I could read the sermon, and copied it into MS Word. Having now read it, I would recommend it to anyone, as most helpful and soul-blessing.
The true, genuine, God-given, new birth and infilling of the Spirit, has certain marks about it in the inner life of the believer, which are shown in outward behaviour and Christlikeness. The Spirit of God testifies with my spirit, that this message of Edwards is true Christianity.
B. McCausland wrote: Definitely. His outlook of redemption in the context of the topic, seemed precious and heart-warming indeed. Happily, Edwards' generation was not influenced by the 'literal' interpretation of the OT due to Dispensationalism. Perhaps this is the reason for the sizeable spiritual input of his approach.
Yes, precious and heart warming. This is no cold doctrinal hot potato, but something most precious. The general apostasy appears on the surface to be giving the church more freedoms, but the end result will be spiritual decline and worsening apostasy.
God is good, and says and does everything for our good. The Christian Sabbath is not another law to keep, but a means to a great end: to rest the body from six days of working, and to engage - unfettered by the necessary dealings in the world - with our God, having spiritual exercises, which maintains our spiritual life, preparing us for another week of life in this world, filled with the Spirit, and bearing the fruit of the Spirit, loving God and our neighbour, shining our light in this dark world, bringing forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixtyfold, and some an hundredfold.
B. McCausland wrote: 1. Thanks, John, will have a read 2. You can read the sermon in question here: http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/sabbath.htm
Well Sr B it turned out to be 18 pages of A4 after I copied and pasted it into MS Word, but I managed to read the whole thing in stages, and well worth the effort, as it is a masterly review of the whole subject, as I would have expected from Jonathan Edwards, and I certainly learned a whole lot from it, and was blessed by it, and convicted of sin by it, and am feeling more confirmed in my practice of keeping the Lord's Day as the one day in seven for both rest and spiritual exercises. What a great day it is, especially with the promise of joy from God the Father!
As I've mentioned before, it is little wonder the church at large is in need of a spiritual revival, when the world is permitted to shave away at the church's distinctives and separation.
B. McCausland wrote: 1. Thanks, John, will have a read 2. You can read the sermon in question here: http://www.biblebb.com/files/edwards/sabbath.htm However, this script contains the proposition no. 1 first, but the sermon in question commences half way down the script with the second proposition that develops in 14 points which goes as follows: II. It is sufficiently clear, that under the gospel-dispensation, this day is the first day of the week." 3. Edwards' focus on this is doctrinally based
Thanks Sr B, I was wondering if there a way I could read it. I have an open mind regarding this, so I shall ponder it carefully.
It's a shame the sabbath was not mentioned in the NT by way of command, then there would have been a full house of the decalogue.
B. McCausland wrote: Well, it is good to hear you are contented with such views; they do not bother me too much, however. - John Wondering if the focus of this sermon by Jonathan Edwards would mean something in those lines to you: The Perpetuity And Change Of The Sabbath 2 of 3 (From The Works of Jonathan Edwards) http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=226101140460 Take care
Sr B, have a quick look at Chapter 7 of this Baptist confession and see if it meets your approval on covenants. It's only short.
The audio on the link is too echo for me. I'll have to dig out another one. Mind you, I still think the biblical arguments for a change of day are very weak, considering the momentousness of such a change.