Hi Kev, I'm just turning in, but you may like to bookmark this site which has a great number of articles in one place on the subject of eschatology. Just scroll down the list and choose one which you would like to study. I read one today and it was most helpful.
I can see you have a hunger for the word of God, and that is a good sign of an inward work of God. But mind you don't get spiritual indigestion.
MS, your comparison with the blasphemous mass is just right. It is obnoxious to a spiritual person.
Kev, every dispensationalist believes in a millennial reign of Christ upon the earth from Jerusalem. And you think the gospel as we know it would be preached in such a scenario? With Jesus heading a political party in the promised land?
Interesting convo, keep it going, we are all learning something here, especially how to honour our beloved Saviour, and exalt HIM and glorify HIM.
Lurker wrote: Good morning John, I believe we must be careful not to judge the dispys harshly. If they love God and brethren, I believe God will accept their persons in spite of grossly faulty interpretive principles.
Yes to some extent I agree with you, and it is something I try hard to do, not wishing to be a bigot or doctrinaire, or cast others off for holding different doctrine to me; so long as they have been called of God and made children of God by faith in Jesus Christ. Okay bro?
But what gets my goat is the dishonour brought upon Christ, who for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross...so that we might behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world, he who said "I will be with you alway (in your preaching of the cross), even to the end of the world."
So in this imaginary millennium, what would be God's message to sinners? Circumcision? Two turtle doves after birth? Attendance at the Temple? Pilgrimage to Jerusalem three times a year for the festivals? Passover reinstituted? Yom Kippur all over again? Daily sacrifices?
I think Penny got the right attitude of total distaste and horror at such vile and unbiblical teaching.
Mike wrote: Me too. If only they could be everywhere for the times they can't prevent these things we see increasingly. We sure do lay a lot of responsibility for the impossible on the unable, don't we?
We sure do, Mike. Which is why the Lord instructs us to trust in him, rather than in man. It's not easy to do, but when we do it, our trust could not be in a better place. He is the Living God (not a mere concept) and he has dealings in everyday life, affecting and influencing even the ungodly, if it please him, in order to bring about his will and purpose.
Yep, it's a terrible theology, Kev. The only people who could think that up, are reprobates, unregenerate, not comprehending the person of Christ nor his sacrifice for sin, for all, for ever.
Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV (1) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (2) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; (3) Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
Allie wrote: BRF and John Uk, these folks are against anyone not Muslim. This isn't particular to Christians or Christianity. Also, Luke 22:36 Jesus tells the disciples to buy a sword. Apostle Paul appealed to governing authorities to save his hyde from the Jews.
Hi Allie and God bless.
I am only commenting on the news item, not anything else.
In the UK, which is what this news item is all about, we may not purchase a sword (or any weapon) to take to church with us, for self protection.
However, we can appeal to the governing authorities to grant us civil protection in the face of terror attacks.
MS did mention Nehemiah and the rebuilding of the walls fully armed. However, that was under a theocracy and all Israel was a fighting force.
When we come to the NT, the teachings of Jesus go contrary to the flesh (self preservation) and focus on the spirit (denying self, taking up a cross, and following him). Where shall we follow him? To crucifixion of course. Without this, there is no Christian experience but mere form or nominal Christianity. A man carrying a cross is not going back, he is going to his death. But he has eternal life because he is "crucified with Christ" and lives the Christ-life. This is crucial.
1 Corinthians 1:26-31 KJV (26) For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: (27) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; (28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: (29) That no flesh should glory in his presence. (30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
Kev wrote: I looked up Thomas Ice, here is a quote from one of his websites. .... Here is the link: https://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/LiteralSacrificesInTheMillennium.html
Morning Kev, it sure makes some sad reading.
"The millennium will return history to a focus upon Israel and will continue to be a time in which sin will be present upon the earth. Thus, God will include a new Temple, a new priesthood, a new Law, etc., at this future time because He will be present in Israel and still desires to teach that holiness is required to approach Him."
What a lot of tripe!
I think one has already mentioned how ludicrous it would be to have the types and shadows fulfilled in the reality, only to bring back the types and shadows during an imagined millennium where the reality is physically on the throne in Jerusalem. Oh boy. Doesn't that just take the biscuit? It's nonsense.
Mike wrote: Sad, bro. Governments seem always to drift toward thinking they are your mother, protecting adult toddlers from the scratches and bruises of life, whereas real Mums know when their children grow up.
Mike, in situations like this, it is a definite requirement to avoid an atrocity, that intelligence be sufficiently gathered by a professional body (say CI5) and any attack be thwarted before it even begins. There really isn't any other way.
A church member can be fully armed, with an assault rifle, rocket launcher, grenades, and anything else you want to put in his pocket, but it won't help against a suicide bomber whose bomb is going to go off even if he's shot dead.
This is what we're up against, and I for one am glad that there are governmental departments who spend all their time seeking to prevent things like this. I even see it as a provision of God. ____________
Oh, St James, forgot to say hello earlier. How are things, man? You seem to be lurking more than The Lurker these days.
kjg wrote: John UK, My historical examples does not apply to the current UK because your politicians have disarmed you. However, where I live, some people conceal and carry firearms when they attend church and no one raises an eyebrow. Tennessee has a long history with firearms. It is not uncommon for someone to go out and shoot firearms during the weekend. This week, I got out my firearms to go after some predators attacking my livestock.
KJG Thanks for that. It must be as difficult for you to understand what it is like here, as it is for me to understand what it is like there.
We have never had any fear attending church, any church. No trouble, no attacks, nothing.
This might all change, of course. But my principle has always been, not to kill anyone. And that will remain unchanged.
We too have farmers who are permitted firearms, for shooting of predators etc. But they are rarely seen, most people live in the towns and cities.
Allie wrote: John, what are you talking about? Did you read my post?
Sure I did, Allie.
For example, what point were you making when you mentioned that Jesus told his disciples to ensure they had some swords, at the time just leading up to his being taken? What did he expect his disciples to do with those swords?
More importantly, how is that relevant to 2016, and what is today's equivalent? I am looking for a practical application of scripture. Bear in mind that in the UK we are not even permitted to carry a small penknife outside our houses.
KJG, That's a very interesting piece of history. And the modern equivalent is what? Two men with flack jackets under the pulpits of our churches carrying AK47's? Not permitted in the UK in 2016, not even in Scotland.
Mind you, I have been to one meeting in England where there was two or more men carrying semi-autos (hidden). I know they were armed because I asked one of them and tried to witness to him. The preacher was Ian Paisley and they were bodyguards (political). They stalked the whole church, keeping an eye out for assassins.
MS wrote: Let's not mix up or twist defending ones family with us personally loosing our life for being a Christian. I know of no Christian man who would not employ any means possible to protect his family if they were in physical harm from the wicked.
Kev wrote: That is well said MS like John UK said it is not appropriate to bring in scenarios like defending ones family like another said into this context.
Amen to both. Yes I am only considering the scenario of a lunatic coming to church with a waist-pack of explosives, especially if he has incorporated a dead-man's-handle into the trigger.
The man is going to die anyway, so why shoot him?
These last days will require a lot more prayer, and getting closer to God, that we might receive grace upon grace, and all the comfort of the Holy Spirit.
One thing we can be sure of, and that is the sovereignty of God. I have always applied this doctrine in all my open air preaching, even when threatenings came my way. I can testify that the Lord suffered no harm to ever come upon me, nor upon any others in the team. Indeed, in all the decades I've been evangelising, we decided as a team never to strike a blow against anyone. Praise God!
MS, it is true that the Lord has his little flock, for whom he cares very much. This is a most wonderful thing. And that care applies to his people whenever they suffer persecution for the faith. Can they "fall to the ground, without the knowledge of his Father"?
But where is faith? Do we really have any faith, that God will look after us? Or will we look to defensive weaponry instead? Observe:
2 Timothy 3:10-12 KJV (10) But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, (11) Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. (12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Now note two important things:
1. ...but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
note, without weapons except PRAYER.
2. ...all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
note, it is difficult to suffer persecution when you keep killing all the persecutors.
The "preservation at all costs" mentality seems to be an American thing. I certainly don't have it.
I am bought with a price, and I am no longer mine own.
They hated Jesus; they hate his people.
If you wish to avoid an early death, you can always hide your Christianity and not go out preaching or giving tracts out. Just behave like you're a worldling, and they "might" leave you alone. Cease attending a place of worship in case a lunatic decides to attack it. Sure, go and live on a desert island, have a nice, easy life, getting suntanned while millions fall into hell for lack of knowledge.
But remember the attitude of the first Christian martyr: "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge."
The cure, of course, for this Americanised Christian preservation at all costs, is to read the four gospels, realising that these are not just religious and pious words, but the words of the Inacarnate God, to which we should attend with all reverence and obedience. Any other way of looking at them is mere head knowledge, historical savvy, neither of which saves a soul from death and hell.
Ahem, the context dictates all, and BRF was absolutely right. Thusly....
Mark 8:35-38 KJV (35) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. (36) For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (37) Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (38) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
We can either hearken to the words of the Saviour, which is the right thing to do; or we can get into self-preservation mode and deny him in the congregation of the righteous.
John UK wrote: "Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan jokingly suggested that maybe the Palestinians should try and sue God for promising Abraham, in the Biblical book of Genesis, that he would give the Land of Israel to his descendants." Maybe spoken partly in jest, but this is the basic issue.
It is the basic issue for Israel, which is why Gilad Erdan made that comment. Don't forget that the Israelis are not Christians.
Andrea,Athens Greece wrote: Oh John your sense of humour is priceless!! Let's all buy brollies.Personally,I have a metal bat by the door,Dave has a boomerang,and Christopher..well, perhaps he has a spade!!Stay well my Welsh brother,many blessings
Ha! Lord's blessings on you, sister Andrea.
I have heard tell that Christopher has a V Gun. It looks like a bicycle pump, but it sprays vegemite into the face of an attacker. It is reported as being worse than tear gas or even a tazer.
BRF wrote: When the apostle Paul faced death for his faith he neither took up arms nor encouraged others to either. We are to live by faith and even die for it rather than cling to this world. Death for the believer is the door way to glory and if God wants to take us by the way of martyrdom that should be considered as a privilege. Set your affections on things above and not below Col 3:1-4.
Thank you BRF for posting the Christian view on this subject. This biblical view is always the way forward.