Ezekiel 9:4 (KJV) 4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Word for "mark" in the Hebrew is...
Only used 3 times. Ezekiel 9:4, 9:6 and Job 31:35
This being the last letter in the ancient Hebrew Script. The letter of completion in the ancient script.
Research the "Tav" in the ancient Hebrew and you will see it is The cross as we know it.
Bro. Mike NY Good observation. I agree. Nicodemus was not seeing it that way at the time though as the spiritual part was lacking in his understanding....otherwise his response would not have included a literal entrance to the womb a 2nd time. Therefore a great demonstration of how the hermeneutic presented by B. fails when put to the test.
Brother John Good point. I would agree it should be included in the conversation...and can be the starting point.
God defines the words He has used by how He uses them in context. By parallels. By examples. By metaphors, By allegory. By cross references. By non-contradiction. By self validation. Ignoring theses tools to determine fact and keeping to our own definitions renders many limitations on understanding.
Testing your hermeneutic...
Factual meaning derived from His usage or from our understanding of syntax, grammar, and words? His usage!
John 6:54 (KJV) 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
"Stating truth and facts with respect does not constitute insult. This is intrinsic to debate."
"twisted, darkened mind..."
When one resorts to insults as part of their retort...the open mind needed for healthy debate is over.
B. McCausland wrote: when reading any text, man is meant to use basic literary skills word meaning ... hard to bend except by twisted mind settings.
Nicodemus utilized the God given literary skills and word meaning you refer to in responding to Jesus here in John 3:4...His literal interpretation of the words Jesus spoke were his accurate understanding of those words....which objectively can be viewed as his error. It was not his twisted mind setting that distorted his understanding...it was his ignorance of believing Jesus was speaking of literal things when Jesus was describing spiritual things
John 3:3-4 (KJV) 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Your statement here... "word meaning are hard to bend except by twisted mind settings."
Word meanings are to be defined by the Author. Example: The Lamb of God. I can believe this is a farm animal or I can believe this is God's son. Adam died. Spiritually or physically in the garden? By God defining the terms we come to understand what He said.
John UK wrote: 3. I was thinking of Buddhists not Christians. What can we tell a Buddhist about his idols? Does God condemn those who build an idol? Is there a law which prohibits the making of an idol? 4. Just as a matter of interest, seeing as every command has a purpose - a reason to be - what was God's purpose in the second commandment? Some people round here have large model butterflies on their house wall, others have garden gnomes in their back garden. Are they ungodly for doing so? Anyone? Back later......
3. I would begin with the Gospel with any Buddhists. You can tell him what God has said about idols....him listening is another matter.
Does God condemn those who build an idol? A guy who is in the business of making declared idols to worship for "a God". Condemned. A guy who makes a decorative statue for a garden for his living and loves God. Not condemned.
Intent of the heart. Only God knows.
God condemns those who do not believe the Gospel by faith through the Lord Jesus Christ and His righteousness.
4. Are they ungodly? Having a decorative item on the wall, or in the back garden is not an idol unless they declare it to be "their God" to you.
John UK wrote: Thank you James, 1. Yes, we're looking at the tabernacle in detail every Sunday night, one item at a time, and seeing what each item meant in a figurative typical sense. 2. But the Hebrews coming out of Egypt would not have known that. 3. Are you saying that God has nothing to say to Buddhists who fashion a Buddha which is the focus of their daily worship?
1.Sounds like a very interesting study John....I know you must be enjoying it.
2.They were told though...but they resisted.
Acts 7:51 (KJV) 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
3. If the current Buddhists belongs to Him He will reveal His truth to Him by means of the Gospel and the statue would be gone.
John UK said... "James, I like that, very much. However, that principle was somewhat tempered by something Frank said recently, which I'm still pondering on....."
Does not God help us all with our sins? Indeed he does....He helps us identify them in our life.
Romans 8:26 (KJV) 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:
Infirmities are our sins.
Idols can be anything from your children to your career to your car...see the pattern? All about you and placing trust in something other than God. We are blind to our blind spots....but yet the Holy Spirit has a way of pointing them out to us as We belong to Him.
John UK wrote: Never mind Paul, James. What I want know is: 1. Can I paint a picture of a tree and sell it at market? or 2. Can I make a little concrete figure of Frenchy to remind me of what God did during the Reformation when he gave Giant Pope a clonk on the nut, as portrayed by John Bunyan in Pilgrim's Progress?
Sorry John, I misunderstood the direction of the thread.
John UK wrote: Literal obedience "would" seem absurd, if we separated v5 from v4. In that case, even a photograph would not be kosha. But there is something else, bro. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:4-5 KJV) It would appear that those who break this particular command, also hate God. We have to take that into account. Or is God saying that if you understand the command and break it, you are showing hatred to me? Thus far, I am thinking that God prohibits the making of anything of any likeness for the purpose of worship. James, not sure what you meant.
I was using Paul as an example in regards to the literal obedience.
Paul admitted his flesh did break the commands literally...but not spiritually in his mind AKA soul.
For thus says the Lord GOD: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. Ezekiel 16:59-60
This is the best summary I have yet found that describes what God would do to the remnant*elect* and for the remnant*elect* in which included the subject of our discussion....our Brother Paul.
B. McCausland wrote: 1. Thanks for your insistence, yet there seems to be no intrinsic support in Scripture...
Intrinsic support from Scripture...fair enough.
Galatians 4:24 (KJV) 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Mt. Siani covenant is Hagar in this allegory. Agree?
Hosea Ch 1:6-11 Language of God using the same allegorical language. Look at the descriptions given. Not normal names right? God is speaking of what He is going to do.
"No Mercy" (All under the law) "Not My people" (Gentiles)
And I will have mercy on No Mercy,(remnant who was under the law) and I will say to Not My People, ‚ÄėYou are my people‚Äô;(Gentiles) and he(as they are now one people) shall say, ‚ÄėYou are my God.‚Äô‚ÄĚ(Hosea 2:23 ESV)
And I will put an end to all her mirth, her feasts, her new moons, her Sabbaths, and all her appointed feasts. Hosea 2:11
Not a real alive person...but a description to some very unique events we can narrow down to a specific group of people right?
No conclusions...but is this enough intrinsic support that garners your interest? If not....that's okay. God's Blessings to you either way!
John UK wrote: James, I am bowing out. Since the discussion began I have become a lot stronger in orthodox doctrine, have learnt a lot, and want you to know that I have appreciated the convo very much. God bless you James.
Brother I do understand. It has been a most profitable exercise for me and I am sure others as well. The prophets have been long been ignored for insight for many reasons but God has opened my eyes to them through God using those that belong to Him to show me what God has said. My intention has only been to reveal what God has shown me in His Word and share it with others. What the others do with it is their choice.
John UK you are a beloved Brother and I do thank God for your presence here on SA.
-------------------------------------- @ Sister B... Your comment... Psalm 51:5 Regretfully, this looks like Scriptural ‚Äėgymnastics‚Äô stretching the muscle of imagination to sustain a notion.
Looking forward to the Scripture that speaks of Psalm 51:5, Galatians 4:24 and Hosea chapter 2 and how they do not relate...do not speak of the Mt. Siani covenant.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV) 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Brother, Where do I get it from? Its in the prophets Brother. Isaiah-Micah. Speaking of the events that would be occurring. There are so many details of the event that would be occurring.
Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth,and my judgment goes forth as the light. For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:5-7
John UK said... Now Lurker, how are you going to set about showing that Saul of Tarsus before Damascus Road was a man in a living relationship with God?
Not speaking for Brother Lurker....just coming along side.
Brother, The prophets speak on this. All of them speak on the same thing over and over in many different ways. Hosea, Isaiah, Micah....pick a prophet.
Your comment earlier..... "You say the souls of God's elect in the OT were alive to God, and I agree with all my heart. They were ALIVE to God."
You have the evidence in your own statement brother. Its right there.
Yet, all the souls of the OT were sinners "under the law"...including the OT elect which Simeon and Paul were a part of.
Souls that are alive and yet sinning. That sums up the ..God did not judge them until He chose....so the soul did not die to God until He chose. Some he condemned some He redeemed. But first...All died to God.
What you would need to show from Scripture is where it says Paul is not a part of the OT saints? Not His actions which was sin....remember God was "forbearing" to not only his sins, but the remaining OT saints.
Paul's sin was not counted to him until Damascus Road. Not because of Paul and what he was doing but because of God and what HE was doing. See the difference between you and I in this right now is you are looking at Paul and his actions(He was a sinner...I agree.) I am looking at God and HIS actions. (God withheld judging the sin "killing the soul" of Paul and others in he remnant until a time of His choosing.)
NO question all had sinned under the law. But the prophets say God deferred, restrained his judgment until a time of HIS choosing....not instant like Adam.
All are responsible to God. God chose when to judge "his people". Read Hosea...
God did condemn all under the law. And redeemed "the elect" Which Paul was a part of.