Mike wrote:
So we should then apply this same totally unable "dead in sin" definition to the verses that speak of being dead TO sin. Using the same formula, ie, dead is corpse dead and there ain't no other kind, the believer who is biblically dead TO sin is totally unable to sin. But that isn't quite true, is it? Different kind of dead?
btw, which Des are you? The one from Washington State, Thunder Bay, Ont., Australia, or another?

"dead IN sin"
Referring to being spiritually dead, the status of natural man.
This is the use of analogy. Not the actual state of being of the physical side of the flesh/body whilst on earth.
The taking of a physical phenomena and applying it to spiritual understanding. As indeed with quickening.

"dead TO sin"
Also the use of analogy.
When alive IN Christ we are no longer under the dominion of sin, ergo, dead to it's inevitable evil power over the human condition. Justified and being sanctified.

Michael Hranek wrote:
the twisted way some professing to be Calvinists make these things out to be.
Which would be something along the order of:.........!!!!!

I Proffered to you a simple text by Xcel; - AND you post in response a presumptuous, unenlightened retort???

Now come on you free will, arminian types, if you do want to debate in a Christian way, at least have the good manners to try, without the hostility. Jesus said "love your enemy" here we are not even your enemy, we are just trying to teach what the Bible says.

Mike New York
posted
"They have difficulty with the reality that actual dead people, and actual live sinners, are not the same thing."

Lets take this to its natural conclusion. The Bible is where we find the phrase "dead in sins" its not a joke, it is taught in the same verse as "quickened by God." The inherent meaning is obvious to those who can read the Bible and take very seriously, the fact that only a divine act brings the sinner to salvation in Christ. That is the meaning of "quicken" - make alive IN Christ.

And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. Romans 9:29

And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 2Peter 2:6

Michael Hranek wrote:
Not to be lengthly here, No! I do not agree with Calvinism's order of salvation of regeneration (new birth) before repentance and faith. Such an order contradicts Scripture such as...
Romans 10
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?

"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and
how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and
how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

Thus in reverse
If God does NOT send a preacher
THEN NONE will hear.
If they don't hear
THEN they won't believe.
If they don't believe
THEN they are hardly going to turn to (call) upon God.

Are they?

So God First.

THEN the mortal can believe.

Faith then is NOT human in origin.

Michael Hranek wrote:
# So in the context of a lost wretched sinner who knows he is utterly lost deserving nothing but the eternal hell (something he couldn't possibly know except for the grace of God)

& The context of a disobedient Israel, by the way they weren't calling upon the Lord to be saved from their sins were they, doesn't apply here in the least.

& Context of Jer 7:16. The point here is that it teaches that God chooses NOT to hear/accept prayer sometimes - EVEN from His righteous servant.
Calling upon the Lord prior to Grace/Spirit/faith is unBiblical/unrealistic.

Michael Hranek wrote:
Jesus Christ for God abounds in mercy to all who call upon Him, perhaps you might read that part and repent.

It's a sad day when the American evangelical church is known more for its faith in President Bush instead of the God who revealed Himself to Moses in the burning bush. It's a sad day when the church is known more for its political organization instead of its bold proclamation of the Holy Word of God. It is a sad day indeed when the church is engaged in wrestling matches instead of wrestling "against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places."

Let us pray that God's all-consuming holiness would ignite in us a burning zeal for our beloved Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and His blood bought church!

In Christ,

I can only imagine what the future of our counrty and others hold...though I'd prefer not to.
Sadly, this is only the beginning. I mean, who are we to tell Muslims that they can't practice their religion{polygamy}, or Mormons in this counrty. There is now group parenting, so how could you legally oppose?