JPW- answer "a." JohnUK- "many" does mean the elect. It is clear in scripture that "many" can mean "all." I have no issue with isa. 53. The Holy Ghost didn't seal anyone Pre-Calvary. The concept of being born again was not taught in the OT. God deals with man differently even though mans spiritual condition doesn't change during covenants. It seems John 7 has troubled you. In the OT they could have been filled and emptied look at Saul the Holy Spirit left him. Observer- go look up what "conscience" means. Eph. 1- 1.acts 16 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 2. Gods will can be broken.
JPW- you don't get my point. Tulip is not found anywhere Pre Calvary. It doesn't come on view until Augustine. Be easy on the unbelieving Jews. They were the keepers of the Old Testament Hebrew bibles that we all benefit from. JohnUK and US- this verse should help you in regards to being born again and the Holy Ghost. John 7 37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Eph. 1 said -"But God does the electing without any merit in man. As per... Eph 1:4 According as *HE HATH CHOSEN* us in him (WHEN) = *before the foundation of the world,* that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having *PREDESTINATED US* unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure OF HIS WILL" Thus God has "chosen." God chose - before the foundation of the world. God - "predestinated."
Here is a better way to look at Eph. 1:4
The key is "in him." Who did God choose? Those who are "in him." He decided before the foundation of the world that whomsoever was "in him" should be holy and without blame and that whomsoever was "in him" would be predestinated to the adoption. Eph. 1:4 says nothing about going to Heaven or Hell.
John UK- How could Nicodemus be born again if the Holy Ghost was not yet given?
Observer- 1 Cor. 2:14 says nothing about not being able to receive Jesus Christ. The "things of the Spirit of God" is not Jesus Christ. They are not the same.
Calvinist add sooo much to the word of God it is sad.
All men have a conscience. "With knowledge." As far as Gods will is concerned it is quite obvious that not all men follow his will. I know you and I don't follow it every day. See 2 Peter 2 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
Here is another blessed verse for the whole world. 1 Tim 2 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
JohnUK- John 10:15 says nothing about limited atonement nor anything about God dying only for the elect. Isa. 53:3 destroys limited atonement. Plus everyone here is a dispensationalist. You all believe in a new and Old Testament.
John UK- Jesus's atonement is not limited. It is for all to receive based on their own freewill. In the old testament it was limited to all of Israel. Going to the Old Testament to justify unlimited atonement is wrong. The gentiles were dealt with a different way than the Jews. Plus even though the Priest made an atonement for the people of Israel that did not mean all of Israel was saved. And for those who think going to Jewish culture for insight on Old Testament life is silly may I remind you that the Old Testament we have today is because of unbelieving Jews preserving them.
Isa. 53:3 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Solar- you failed to understand what I was saying. I was responding to JPW saying "To think that elders in the faith would require us to be taught by nonbelievers to understand the scriptures is beyond my imagination." If he had such a big issue with me seeking information from unbelievers then he should have big issue going to Augustine because he was probably not saved either. People use Augustine to defend t.u.l.i.p.. He is not in hell for teaching "Pre t.u.l.i.p." I believe there are many saved Calvinist. I visit James white website almost everyday. I can assure you Vance is far more trustworthy than white.
Unprofitable Servant- here is a good verse to add to the good ones you posted. "John 12 :32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die."
JPW- My point is there is no hint at T.U.L.I.P in any Jewish teaching in Scripture or out of Scripture. You would think if this was such a foundational doctrine that it would have been taught by unbelieving Jews after the cross and Jews before Calvary. Why go to a heretic like Augustine who is most likely in Hell for a defense of T.U.L.I.P?
Hranek- I have read Dave Hunts book. It is a pretty good. Vance's book though is much more thorough. Dave Hunt quotes a lot from Vance. A few things that should be noted is that no orthodox Jew teaches T.U.L.I.P. It does not exist in the Old Testament. Plus the only ancient Jews I know of that taught God predestinated people to Hell and Heaven were the Essenes. They were a true cult and they were heretics. Also Augustine taught it but that does not say much because he is probably in Hell right now.
If you want to be drawn to God you can ask God to draw you. Song. 1:4. Cornelius is a great example of this. Thank God for a conscience and free will. An unsaved man is dead spiritually but not physically and emotionally. He could still pray out to God and seek to be drawn because he has a conscience. The best book exposing augustianism is "the other side of Calvinism" by Laurence Vance. Vancepublications.org
John UK- Paul is speaking of post Calvary things. The "even so" and "also" apply to the "remnant" the "according" applies to the new remnant not the old remnant. Again the old remnant was chosen by their works. Go look up the old testament passage.
One more thing NO WHERE can you find anywhere before Calvary Jewish people ever believing in a Faith only system! You know why? Because it was not there! Does Josephus talk about this? Any Jewish writings? You would think we could find something? It is also quite obvious that Paul debates Faith only vs. Faith and works. Why? Because that is what the Jews believed and were taught by the Old Testament.
JohnUK-Rom. 11:4-6 is making a comparison of Law and Grace. The story of the Prophets is a story of a remnant in the midst of sin. A remnant that few knew about. Those Prophets were chosen by God by there works not by faith. The Jewish remnant now is elected by Grace but the one then was works. When Paul says "no more of works," he means no more of works. I took a simple look at it because it is simple. Read Rom. 9 and 10 it is Works vs Faith for context. As for Rom. 7 and Gal 2 this is very simple. The focus is post-Calvary. "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived" He was alive when he was innocent. This is a great verse for proving when babies die they go to heaven. When the law comes then you are held accountable for your sin. Great verse! John you said- "Yep, dispensationalism is up the creek without a paddle, and the falls looming on the horizon." God help us if this is the case. I know there are many various forms of dispentionalism, but for the most part it is Biblical. You and Observer are both Dispensationalist. You believe in the Old and New Testaments.
Well John and Observer- I have been greatly sharpen. Thank God salvation is "no more of works." Rom. 11:6 "And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Thank God the Holy Spirit permanently indwells the believer now and does not leave like he could and did in the Old Testament. And thank God that eternal salvation is by faith alone. Observer I hope you visited the link I posted. Peace
Observer- Heb. 11:24-26 is simply pointing out that like Christ, Moses suffered reproached for being a righteous man. It for sure does not hint at Moses suffering for our Gospel or his plan of spiritual salvation. See Ps. 69:9 and John 2:17 for another type of this example. He did not have to know of Christ to suffer like him. I don't know his specific reward. It sure was not spiritual salvation. As for your link from Pink I will be studying it. I respect Pink and I know he was a student of the Scriptures. As for you I would hope you would visit this link and study it well. http://preservedwords.com/ot-salvation-pv.htm
JohnUK- Let me ask the question another way. Would you pray in your prayers "Lord take not thy holy spirit from me?" As for your response I believe it is just in my opinion stretched out and incorrect.
John i read your post. seeing i have an iphone i am not able to respond to every single question. i have raised many valid points and questions. most of the time they are ignored. i will ask this question again. " Are any of you going to sing "take not thy Holy Spirit away from me?"the answer is no. But in the Old Testament it was a valid prayer. Today the Holy Spirit can't leave us. We are sealed. I realize this causes many to stumble especially Augustinians.