John UK wrote: 1 Timothy 2:1-6 KJV 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. It "appears" that Jesus died for "all men", because God wants all to be saved and know the truth. Eh?
If God wants "all men" to be saved in the sense every single individual ever born, the it would seem in verse 1 we are commanded to make supplications, prayers, intercessions and give thanks for every single individual ever born.
Wish you well with that. Let me know how you get on!
Michael Hranek wrote: Cessationist No! Absolutely not! for the most part the present day Modern Pentecostal Charismatic Churches are frightful in their willfull lack of the genuine Bibilcal Gospel, the Biblical ignorance and REAL heresies and hereitcs they harbor. There are some that are contra the modern day ecumenical emergent seeker sensitive purpose driven movements (the same kind of thing infecting modern evangelicalism) that still preach repentance, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, you must be born again to be saved, baptism by immersion for believers only, the Bible is the Holy authoritative word of God we must believe and live by, and holiness, prayer and soul winning the things that in genuine agape love for one another ought to mark any church that knows Christ and seeks to be faithful to Him and make Him known and well worth attending if you find one, even if they don't "speak with other tongues" one solitary single time in their whole lives, quote the WCF or not and welcomed all the outcasts, exconvicts, misfits, wounded failures and the poor of society to come and hear of Jesus Christ
I hope Michael that no one argues that the need for spiritual power is the want of the hour. BUT that is not what this thread is about.
Michael Hranek wrote: Cessationist You actually asked a question that needs just a mite of rewording: So what happens when the apostles vanish? God is obliged to carry on the witness to confirm the words of an unbelieving, unloving, man-centered church?.. Tongues or not aside - If we are honest modern men and entertainment centered churches dispise any God fearing prophetic ministry (NOT imaginary future telling) call to repentance and obedience to the faith once for all delivered to the sainst. So tickle our ears with:.... Just don't tell us how badly we've sinned and fallen short of the glory of God turning what ought to be houses of prayer in houses of singing and entertainment watering down the Gospel where it is so inoffensive it wouldn't offend a serial killing drug manufacuturing gang boss just don't get us all identified with that Jewsih carpenter guy, Who preached the Bible, and associated with lepers and prostitutes and died on a cross as if we are supposed to repent of our sins and live for Him or something.
Your conclusion? That pentecostal/charismatic churches are doing better in this respect for possessing what they believe are the biblical gifts?!!
Michael Hranek wrote: JPW Amen! and Amen! And all them churches were, in a word, Pentecostal. Even when some of them had need of serious correction that they would have meetings that were decent and in order. But yes, the early churches in the book of Acts were what we would call today 'Pentecostal', certainly genuinely Spirit filled. (or maybe some would say Baptist as well). Quite different than the sickening pretending of modern Charismatic/Word of Faith and sadly many Pentecostal false teachers of today.
If you are right in what you say, can you explain Heb 2.4?
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
God bearing the apostles witness with signs, wonders, miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost?
So what happens when the apostles vanish? God is obliged to carry on the witness to non-existent apostles?
You and jpw sure know more than the Bible does, and that's a shame.
2 Corinthians 12.12 â€˜Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.â€™
What signs, wonders and mighty deeds pointed to Paul being an apostle?
1 Corinthians 14.21-22,
â€˜In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.â€™
As for your comment about Pastor teachers etc. you might like to read Ephesians 4 to see that the gift to the churches are pastors etc.
What makes you think that what you are speaking of is "the word of knowledge" of NT times? Where in the NT do we find this term explained? You have fallen in with Charismatic thinking!
Michael Hranek wrote: Cessationist Again I will respect that as your opinion, and still again stand by my observation 'cessationism' is a convient excuse, one of many, for those who don't want to change...
Making a scape goat of cessationism may be convenient but it is hardly to the point. The fact is that cessationism is the teaching of the Bible and if people will abuse it, as they are wont to abuse any biblical doctrine, then it is not the doctrine that is to blame!
Christianity is a supernatural religion which worships the God of the supernatural who can bring about his will in myriads of ways. Your trying to make out that the cessation of sign gifts is somehow to blame for the woes of Christendom is not only unbiblical but frankly silly.
And, what you overlook is that this is how the Jews were taught to accept a messenger from God. Consider Moses and his question at Exod 4.1, how did the Lord respond? Cf Exod 4.5 etc. Just read Exodus 4 and see how the Lord chose to authenticate his messenger.
Precisely! There are spiritual gifts still in the church (pastor/teacher, evangelist, helps etc). It is only the sign-gifts which have vanished.
Michael Hranek wrote: ....AND whether you like it or not, they abuse cessationism as one of many excuses not to change....
Your equating cessationism with anti-supernaturalism is quite bizarre. There is no cessationist known to me who would say that somehow God has less power or may not break into this world with power.
Cessationism recognises that the sign-gifts were just that. Signs of what? Signs to authenticate God's messengers (viz. the apostles) because they were bringing new revelation.
The article I linked to made the point that even in revivals when by all accounts so many lives were touched by the power of God, there was a great increase in godliness, but not one claim to exercise any of the sign-gifts!! Why if they were meant to be perpetual?
Spiritual power from the Holy Spirit to change lives is in no way linked with the sign gifts, and this at base is your fallacy.
Michael Hranek wrote: ...Again and I know this is likely to be taken wrong by some but IMHO those who are casual and not that serious in seeking God will be quite happy to be 'a cessationist who believes the supernatural has ceased' AND NOT likesly to be one who seeks and sees The Power and Glory of God in their faith. Learning
I appreciate that in your posts you are trying to emphasize an experiential Christian life where the Lord's dealings are felt and tangible. This is certainly a vital matter to insist on in these days of superficiality.
BUT really, your statement above is outlandish.
I could make an equally bad case for experiential Christianity degrading to a feelings based Christian life and then progressing to mysticism!
Please try and keep a perspective, and think particularly on what the sign-gifts were for.
Have you read the article that I linked to? If so, what did you think?
Christopher000 wrote: I'm with you, JPW. I have said a couple if times that I no longer believe that the gifts are active. The fact of the matter is that I keep going back and forth with it because I'm just not sure and neither can be proven (I don't think). I sometimes think that the gifts back then were in use to get Christianity jump started, proving that Jesus really was the Christ but have since ceased. At other times, I wonder if they really are still active but just being grossly abused with people thinking they can use them at will...their will. Abused to the point that Satan has people believing that they are foolishness because there is never any evidence and all is done in such disorder, and often times, hysterical ways. I don't know...I'm always on the fence.
I think Chris, you would do well to read the link that I provided earlier. I think you might change your mind about "neither can be proven"!
Michael Hranek wrote: ...IMHO "cessationism" can prejudice one against the Holy Spirit, His ministry and shrivel up the fruit He would bring forth in a child of God's life
Michael, you're not exactly dispassionate on the issue for someone who claims not to be at the extremes. I do find it interesting that you couch language such that anyone who takes the biblical view that the miraculous gifts have ceased is an extremist. And your last paragraph, forgive me for being blunt, is patent nonsense. You look at all the great tomes down the ages which deal with the work of the Holy Spirit in converting, sanctifying, glorifying etc and you will find that they were all written by cessationists. Happy to recommend titles to you if you want to check out this claim.
Michael Hranek[/AUTHOR ..for anyone willing to give an honest humble consideration about whether or not the gift of tongues has ceased, I would recommend a prayerful listen to Tim Conway's sermon on I'll Be Honest dot com: Has the Gift of Speaking in Tongues Ceased? http://illbehonest.com/has-the-gift-of-speaking-in-tongues-ceased-tim-conway ...
Any if they don't? Presumably they are dishonest?
jpw would do better to consider why the cessationist think biblically that the sign gifts have ceased.
ProForbitNOTtonguesSpeaking... wrote: No, YOU Stop Being Ignorant And Study THE AUTHORIZED ENGLISH (KING JAMES) HOLY BIBLE Before Posting Anymore "FORBID NOT TO SPEAK WITH TONGUES" GARBAGE ! ! ! Speaking WITH Tongues Is Not Only A HOLY BIBLICAL GIFT Which Can STILL BE PRACTISED TODAY Via The HOLY BIBLICAL Order & Protocol As Spelled Out In 1 Corinthians 14; But, One Must Note That Women Are FORGIDDEN To "Speak (With Tongues) In The Church".
What language do you speak when you utter garbage? And what makes you think that this garbage that you utter is heavenly? How does this garbage differ from the garbage spoken by other cults and religions?
In my experience, only people who want to seem special and holy claim that the gift of tongues is still around. Why not the other sign gifts? I will tell you why, because its more difficult to fool other people with them!
YOU SPEAK GARBAGE and have fooled yourself into thinking that this is of the Holy Spirit. How stupid.
Bill Grimes wrote: ....Miracles did not cease with the Apostolic Age but will continue until Jesus returns. This is the implication of what 1 Corinthians 13:8,10 ___
What is being denied is that the "sign" miracles are still valid today. IOW those that authenticated the Apostles as the mouthpieces of God. See for instance 2 Cor. 12:12.
No one denies that God may still perform miracles directly in answer to prayer. See for instance James 5 for healing miracles.
Your take on 1 Co 13:8,10 is not new, but you will have a job proving that this reference is to Christ's coming. Others have argued that the reference is to the completion of the canon of Scripture, which actually makes more sense to me.
Have you ever performed a miracle? If so, do share with us the exact nature of the miracle and how you went about performing it. What were the results? Were they as astonishing as those in the NT?