Bruce Lantto wrote: John in Wales,YES,YES,YES,YES. CHRIST is in me, and i have that blessed HOPE which is CHRIST JESUS. To the others who responded. i am confused are you trying to take away the Salvation that is of the LORD Jonah 2:9.i have the blessed assurance that JESUS knows my name.John 10:27-30, i do follow HIM.What more can be said,i follow CHRIST and CHRIST leads me. i ask one thing of any who answer this post with Romans 8:38-39 as my final answer. i am SAVED AND SEALED BY THE HOLY GHOST Ephesians 1:13 and Ephesians 4:30. Wherefore HE IS ABLE to save THEM to the uttermost that come to GOD by HIM and i believe GOD 1 Thess 5:24, Hebrews 10:23. IN CHRIST bruce lantto
Bruce, I rejoice in your testimony. Glad to hear of God's work in your life.
Please ignore some of the postings today with my moniker. Someone STOLE my moniker and posted as me. You wouldn't think that would happen on a Christian website, now would you? Who can you trust, if you can't trust "professing" christians?
Garry Curley wrote: Every man is not my brother in the flesh?
Was your father Adam in the Garden, or did you evolve from ape or the primordial mass?
Every son of the flesh was in Adam. The son of your father is your brother.
And, if you are really interested in what Scripture says about "law and mercy" do a search of your own. I am well aware of your friend *HYH*'s tactic, and you are using the same. Yours is just a game, with no serious intent to find truth. If you really wanted truth, you would search it out, and not ask an unknown person in another country to give you the answer.
You are disingenuous in asking the question. So, there is no reason for me to indulge your question with a response. But, I might suggest that you look at the intent of the law when you do your search. Jesus railed against the Pharisees for "straining at a gnat, and swallowing a camel." I would keep that in mind while I busied myself in a search for the principles delineated in Scripture.
Mike wrote: Not to worry, Candle Lit, God protects his own, and they can't lose their salvation, right?
That's right, Mike, but they CAN be led into heresy by false teachers, and those who are not yet saved can be confused with the teaching of the charlatans! The Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses indoctrinated my sister with their false teaching.
Over and over, we are told to "be not deceived by false teachers" and to beware of false brethren, who god is their belly. Jude says, "These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever."
Well, these of whom Jude speaks are alive and kicking on the SA boards. !!!
Garry Curley wrote: Truth is what marks a true Christian.Love is the fruit of that truth. A muslim man is not my brother.A Christian is my brother.The Gospel truth is what the muslim needs too hear as the gay man.Scripture is truth. Garry Curley.
Truth without mercy is the Law. Is that what you want? Because apart from Jesus Christ, you will be judge according to the Law.
You've heard of the "good Samaritan?" Jesus told the parable of a man who had been beaten and robbed and was lying in the road, nearly dead. While, the Pharisee, the religious leader, passed by the man, and did not help, nor did his countryman, it was the stranger, the one who had no reason to help, other than a heart of compassion that constrained him to rescue the man. You sound like the Pharisee. There is a stern warning from the Lord, "Woe unto you scribes and hypocrits, white-washed sepulchres, full of dead men's bones."
Take heed! Every man is your brother in the flesh. Born again believers are brothers of a divine nature and are inheritors of a spiritual kingdom along with Jesus Christ. You do not sound like you are yet a born again believer.
REPENT and BELIEVE on the LORD Jesus Christ, and be saved
Barry from KY wrote: "The under-35 generation thinks church is a judgmental, hypocritical, insular place," says Jamie Dunham, That's because we've mad it a judgmental, hypocritical inuslar place!!! Instead of the warm loving sanctuary it should be!
Well, there are a lot of different churches out there. The last one that I visited had fresh-faced lads in button-down oxfords and khakis, acting as parking attendants and greeters. Once inside, soft leather sofas were filled with polo shirt/khaki crowd sipping coffee and eating pastries while leisurely chatting.
Oh, and there were really cool monitors everywhere so there was no need to leave the comfy sofas to go into the sanctuary.
But once inside the sanctuary, there is cushioned theatre seating, and a really cool sound system, and low lighting, and there is a parade of people who compliment other people whom they bring before the hundreds of adoring fans in the audience, who then stand and applaud the well-deserved person being honored, for nothing more than just being a person in a position of say a "mother" or "father" - nothing more.
Then, there is a short message that makes everyone happy. Then, people hug, and smile, and say "goodbye."
HYH wrote: You specifically said that such sins were nothing to do with the law, which is the point that I was contradicting.
That is NOT meaning behind what I said. You took that out of context. Perhaps the reason that you miss the meaning is because English is NOT your first language.
HYH wrote: So glad I don't live in your world. You are a pretty dim candle, lit or not.
That derogatory comment reveals a jealous heart, insecure and immature.
English is my first language, and I am American. I know that when English is someone's second language, nuances, idioms, and even humour, do not translate easily, if at all. Text alone does not convey perfect meaning, and it must be particularly difficult for foreigners.
Perhaps that was our problem. You just never understood the meaning behind the words.
I have good friends from other countries, and although they are brilliant, they often have this problem with English. OTOH, their writing skills are impeccable, which may be your pursuit on these boards.
HYH wrote: You specifically said that such sins were nothing to do with the law, which is the point that I was contradicting. So you are wiser than those who framed the confessions of faith, and Mr Spurgeon and every other Reformed thinker who has believed in Infant Salvation? Or do you suppose that they all had to jettison "original sin" to accommodate their viewpoint? So glad I don't live in your world. You are a pretty dim candle, lit or not.
I was going to respond in kind, but, you know what? I can't. I would feel realllly bad, to know that I would respond as an unbeliever would.
My suggestion to you: read John/UK's posts. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Read his testimony. Do you have a similar one, where God has brought you from a heart of pride and rebellion to one of submission and love for God's Word and for His people. If you do not love your brother whom you have seen, how can you love God whom you have not seen? Do you love God? Do you love His Word? Do you love His people? If not, you are not saved. Read DJC49's post for good doctrinal teaching. Read the Gospels over and over until you know the person of Jesus Christ as YOUR Saviour. You need the work of the Saviour to change your proud heart.
Guinness wrote: Bruce, I must respectfully ask, in the light of your testimony of this past year, how can you say you were saved on May 11th 1987?
No disrespect to Bruce, but I've heard a version of this so many times. It seems to be especially prevalent in the Baptist denomination. That may be because when you are 12 years old, you reach the "age of accountability." That is the age that you become accountable for your sins and your eternal destiny. Until that age, if one dies, they are considered "saved." Although every Baptist church may not hold to this view, those in the South, do.
So, at 12 yrs. old, you are encouraged to walk the aisle and kneel down and prayer earnestly for salvation. Then, everyone rejoices that you are now "saved." The final step is baptism by immersion. That's it! You are saved!
After that, if you indulge in sin - you are called a "backslider." You are still "saved" based on church teaching, "once saved, always saved."
The date of walking the aisle and baptism by immersion is firmly held as testimony of salvation, regardless of the way one lives or how one dies.
The goal of salvation seems to be to escape hell, rather than to glorify God by living a godly life. That is the problem!
HYH wrote: Your "understand what sin is" statement could be turned upon you, because you are confusing a sin nature with actual sins. And BTW sins of omission and commission still relate to the law and are indeed a breach of the law!
Oh, *Riding your high horse*, before sun sets, I just had to comment on your BTW statement.
You re-state what I had pointed out to Mike/NY as SINS of omission and commission, as though you are having an epiphany!!!!
You also did this in a previous post.
You leave me scratching my head. I have had better communication through gesturing with those speaking a different language.
HYH wrote: I am attempting to answer your question by forcing you to work through the issue rather then give stock answers, which any lazy person can give. Are you up to the challenge? If so, start by giving one single verse that clearly teaches that God will send to hell someone who is born with a sin nature but never had the opportunity to commit actual sin because they died in infancy.
Thank you, but I decline the challenge.
It is a "gotcha" and "gloat" question.
This is one of those issues that one can go round and round and never have a meeting of the minds. And, what profit is there in it?
You want the letter of the law to justify everything. That's what the Pharisees did.
I know the Author of Scripture, personally. I'm family! He'll teach me what He wants me to know.
Your horse is a little to high for me. I'll ride with cowhands!
Mike wrote: So you are disagreeing with what Scripture plainly teaches, when James says that we sin because we are drawn away by our own lusts, which result in sin, which leads to death. I suppose there is some comfort in blaming Adam
There are sins of omission and sins of commission. You are not taking that into consideration. You are thinking of sin only as breaking the law, i.e., murder, theft, adultery, immorality, gossip, drunkenness, etc.
A "specific" sin isn't the issue. It is from the heart, that "sin" originates. The battle for sin is in the mind. With the mind/heart, desire/intent/sin is birthed. It is our "heart" that is desperately wicked. We need to be made "new" in Christ Jesus. We need a new "spirit" - a "spirit" that submits to the law of God. We need for our hearts of stone to be newly created hearts of flesh! We are either ALIVE to the things of God, or DEAD to them. When we are alive to God, we are sensitive to sin, still tugging at our flesh. God said to Cain, "Sin desires you, but you must conquer it." Only in Christ!
DJ's post to you of 1:26 pm, very succinctly answers your question as to original sin. If you do not accept that, there is nothing that I can add to it that would enlighten you.
Mike said, "Sins, being acts of the flesh or thought, come from our own lusts, not Adam's. Until one sins, one has not sinned."
We know that David says in the Psalms, "In sin, did my mother conceive me."
You are disagreeing with what Scripture plainly teaches, that we are born "sinners."
What you are saying is that we BECOME sinners at some point in time.
This kind of errant belief is why we have people who THINK they are RIGHTEOUS because they have never done anything, at least observable, that can be pointed to. This is what the Pharisees believed. Listen to Paul when he sarcastically speaks of his testimony as a Pharisee. He was above reproach. He kept the law. NOTHING could discredit him.
YET, when he met Jesus Christ, he later declared, "O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death (sin)." Answer: Jesus Christ
Mike, we are born "sinners." That is our heritage as a son of Adam. Every THOUGHT & INTENT of the heart is wicked. That was the message Jesus gave to the Pharisees, and they HATED Him for it. They wanted to be RIGHTEOUS by keeping the law, much of which was their own additions to the law that God had given to Moses.
Sin is NOT WHAT we do. It defines us while in our mother's wombs. We need a Saviour
Hold your horses wrote: If Hitler had come to believe in Christ then he would have been saved, and would have proved his election!
But, provide your scriptural answer and if you succeed, I shall concede the argument to you.
Hold your horses,
I do not have the endless patience of John/UK for circuitous debate.
You have NOT answered my questions, which makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion.
This much I will say:
We know that Hitler was not born of the Spirit of God. He killed millions, and took his own life.
Given the Providence of God, had he died in infancy, would he be in heaven or hell?
If you say, he would be in heaven, then you are saying that original sin does not send one to hell. That let's me know WHERE you stand.
AS long as you think sin is something you DO, you MISS the fact that sin is in the very nature of man. Before a change wrought by the HS, you could press on the heart, and it would ooze sin (think gross), so to speak.
You need to understand what "sin" is, before you can understand the need for a Saviour.
If babies do not need a Saviour, then you are saying that there is more than one way to get to heaven.
P.S. I'm not interested in WINNING an argument. Only TRUTH!
John UK wrote: Hello Gardener I'm rather glad you explained it all so well, showing how God makes use of the human faculties in the conversion process, especially the whole business of spiritual enlightenment. Good on yer bro!
Your ENDLESS patience that you are EXERCISING in this forum is a witness to us all!!!!
Patience - Listed as one of the fruits of the Spirit in Galations 5:22.
I wonder if those who disagree with you, would say that one does not "exercise" patience, but, rather it is a gift? _________
Re: The Wind in the Willows - it is/was a popular children's book, written by an English author - Kenneth Grahame, published in 1908. Still popular today, though probably not as it once was, given the explosion of other books, games, etc.
Mike wrote: We foolishly say God creates babies for no other purpose than to send them to hell, but this is ok in our bent thinking, for we hide behind words like 'elect,' because "God's ways are higher than ours."
This is one of those subjects that touches a raw nerve with some more than others. It is probably one that cannot be dealt without offending many.
I don't have the answer, and I am okay with that. I'm very comfortable with the limits that my humanity places on me. And, I am exceedingly comforted by the Sovereignty of God.
Your words impugn me with accusations that are not justified - they are not true. Be that as it may, I don't know why you would do that, but, perhaps you have a loss that I don't know about. I'm truly sorry, if that is the case.
Some things are better unheard, better unsaid. Perhaps dealing with this subject is one of them.
P.S. Mike, I have given a little more thought to this, and because of your post, this is not going to be something that I want to discuss in the future. I do not see any good coming from it. Rather, a discussion of this topic may bring unnecessary pain to ppl, and I don't want to be the cause of someone else's pain. So, thank you for awakening me to that!
Hold your horses wrote: I have explicitly affirmed ORIGINAL SIN. So, is it the term that you are unfamiliar with or is it just that you are determined with lies to undermine what you do not want to understand? ____________________________________ Candle Lit You say you trust the Lord in matters you do not understand. Fine. Very commendable. But do your seriously consider that the one who said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God", that this Savior could condemn to hell babes who do not even know the difference between good and evil
Let's just suppose that one of those little babes is Hitler. Instead of growing up to kill MILLIONS, he dies in infancy. Now, he hasn't done ANYTHING wrong, because he's a babe. But, the nature to "KILL" is in him.
Is it your conjecture that the BABE HITLER should forever reside in a KINGDOM of Righteousness?
For the life of me, I cannot see how you can say that you believe in "original sin" and yet, maintain that a baby born in sin can go into heaven with his sin nature still intact. That leaves a sane person scratching his head.
Until you answer my question, there will be no further participation on my part to your ?
John UK wrote: Hi Candle Lit In my own understanding, I believe that all men sinned "in Adam" and became guilty before God. My simple explanation of that statement is that any one of us could have been "Adam" and each one of us would have committed the same sin, such that Adam's condemnation became our own condemnation. The effect of that is that even a newborn infant is as guilty as Adam, and therefore would suffer eternal consequences for just that one sin. Yet if the infant was elect, he would be saved, as always by the grace of God. I know I'm up against CHS, but I cannot help believing what I believe. p.s. I don't think I've ever read 'Wind in the Willows', sounds interesting.
Yes, I believe as you do. It is consistent with Scripture. How could one believe in "original sin" and not believe as you have so clearly stated?
I love Spurgeon. I have spent time reading his writings since '78, but I did not know his position on this. Quite frankly, I had not given much thought to it, until I picked up a book where Jonathan Edwards challenged my thinking on this issue.
It's a hard thing to accept that a baby would not be elect. But, I know the Saviour, and in the end, when issues are hard to understand, I trust HIM. OOS
Hold your horses wrote: Then you are ignorant as to why those that drew up the Confessions of faith went to such great lengths to point out this and one other exception to the general rule that one must have understanding and faith in order to be saved. That is the whole point of these exceptions to say that the normal gospel salvific logic cannot be applied to these cases, because they are extraordinary cases!! Think a little and perhaps your head might not spin.
I will say it again, ORIGINAL SIN IS NOT BEING DENIED nor LIABILITY TO JUDGEMENT because of it. BUT, the Standard of Judgement is the Deeds done in the flesh!!! These babies that die in infancy could not have understood the gospel if you had preached it to them in the clearest and tenderest tones. They could not understand, let alone believe what they could not understand. They are therefore saved in an extraordinary manner.
R U male or female?
Sweetness of speech increases persuasiveness!
You can ride off into the sunset... Head 'em up ..... move 'em out!
Hold your horses wrote: a) I have already conceded that we are all born sinners.
b) Original sin is not the issue to hand.
c)The standard of judgement to be used on the day of Judgement is the issue. If God, who is wholly righteous, tells us that he will judge what we have done in the flesh, then that is the acid test. So my question to you is what have babies (whether new born or those still in the womb) done or not done that would merit condemnation and hell? Will the judge of all the earth not do right by them?
You cannot say that you believe (a), and that (b) is NOT the issue, and, then, go on to conclude (c).
If you believe (a), then, that in and of itself condemns one to hell.
Your inconsistency in your thought processes makes my head spin.
Note: What I do know is that God is ALL GOOD, so I KNOW that His Plan for the salvation of souls is in keeping with His Goodness. I trust HIM for the things I cannot understand this side of eternity. I don't have to be able to EXPLAIN God. I take Him at His Word.