SteveR put out one post to chellenge the sincerity of the poster. Nothing wrong with that if after a couple of exchanges, you intend to ferret out the truth then proceed to answer. In this forumn, with many posters posting, it was at this juncture that others stepped in leaving SteveR at the first exchange, and looking bad.
God will raise up messangers for "hopeless" and he will still hear the message. But you can see the dangers of pentacostalisms dependance of "strong enough faith" and chasing and binding devils, to speaking in toungues to "show you have the spirit". This reliance on strong enough faith and doing enough to hold on to you salvation.
The times that I felt great before God becase of my self-righteous efforts to the times I hated God and hid from Him because I wasn't right, the one thing that always gave me hope was of who He is. I knew too much of Him. Knew that neither of those two states added anything to the love He loved me with. I didn't come to him on the wings of my Arminian saving faith. I arrived empty. He rescued me. The same love that first rescued me when I hadn't even know Him was still there even when I was hiding from Him. He will not walk out on you! Nothing can seperate us. He is the hope for the hopeless. Restorer of the dejected.
The "world" here is the people, not the physical universe.
"According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the 'world'" Ep1:4
For Armins, this world here must EXCLUDE people because if "before the FOUNDATION of the world" meant ALL of creation (which it does), then Gods done with choosing before man had a go at it!
EP1:4 establishes Christ as the head and representative of the 'elect' which the Father had given Him before creation, therefore He had the authority and the right to pay for the elect. God didn't look for just ANYONE that could live perfectly, then bank the 'rightiousness' and dole it out like indulgence. We have the concept of federal headship because of our fall resulting from Adams sin.
Armins turn 'elect' on it's head. Man chooses God, then God chooses same back and calls it election. which is no election at all. Armins election is meaningless, really! Man chooses God and God tries to reclaim some role in this by comming up with some empty meaningless term. Man chooses God. So what! God didn't do anything and the term serves no purpose
Michael Hranek wrote: In Jesus' day it was NOT the religious who got it, the baptism of John the Baptist, but the publicans and prostitutes. Is it any different today???
Nobody got it Michael. With the most clearest presentation of the Gospel by the best presenter ever, EVERYONE left town. In fact, Jn6:67, Jesus turned to his disciples and if they were walking out as well.
A good presentation of the Gospel wo't cut it because the carnal mind is enmity (hate) against God. Unless God draws, nobody comes.
This thing about the prostitutes and publicans responding is to point out to the self-righteous Jewish who considered them unclean and - 'For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness' -Romans10:3.
Michael Hranek wrote: CV I was speaking of men who presume to have everything figured out
Glad you clarified it.
Hope this discussion continues. This is NOT trivial.
BTW Michael What you describe of that pastor is not Calvinistic thought. It's his thought. Just like Christians get blamed for all kinds of kooks that ever make any so called Christian decleration while on some kind of jihad. Please bare in mind that you often dismiss Calvinism on the basis of the lunatic fringe. Examine the true doctrine, and then offer a challenge.
Michael Hranek wrote: If we are not careful we might be so caught up in "an everything figured out system of theology" that we forget the Triune God is a living being
Michael I am one of those who believe that God has everything figured out, even a sparrow falling to the ground, as opposed to this Living Being of a God that can be influenced and changes as he learns.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last - Rev22:13
For I am the LORD, I change not -Malachi3:6
Perhaps by having a discussion, we can draw out the truth of Gods word.
It makes more sense to pray to your God then to mine. But essentially, prayer is not to change God but to conform us to the image of Christ. It is so that we can turn to Him, who already knows it all, to trust and grow in a closer intimate relationship with Him. Prayer is for praise and worship of Him, and to grow in a childlike dependence and faith on Him for our very being.
We do not change God. Prayer Changes us. He's got it ALL figured out
People keep glossing over this free will issue. But you can see that if you change one thing of Gods word, there are serious changes far and wide.
Christopher000 'why pray for anyone at all if God has already foreordained those He wants'
Once you understand what Calvanism is, you'll see the irrelevance of this question. But while you may ask out of a genuine desire to understand, there are many who use this to mock Calvanism. "How can a Calvinist evangelise if God has predetermined who gets saved?" This is someone who wants to remain ignorant and has no desire to seek the truth. Much like a Muslim who accuses us of having three gods, or "how can god have a son?", (Mohammed belived Marry was the third member of the trinity.)
I hope we can exame Calvinism, here. It represents biblical Chritianity.
I am not a follower of Calvin. I am thakfull to God for people like pastor Calvin. But we must hold all man against biblical standards and call them on it when they deviate. No man is infallable and Calvin made mistakes.
Calvin did not come up with the 5-points of Calvinism, despite the ignorant that attack him for it. The 5-p's were a summary response to the attack on the Gospel by the followers of Arminian.
At core is the issue of whether God regenerates the sinner whom God has chosen vs man responding to God out of his "free will", free from Gods direct power and influence.
Ewdon wrote: As Jesus Himself teaches, Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
Man could not have had a more clearer presentation of the Gospel, with all the cost counting, then when Jesus presented it. But the good man out of his reconstructed free will received not the things of God, instead he hung God on the cross.
"12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."
This is not from some systematic theology book!
Mike from New York Your convoluted logic only gets better with every post.
John for JESUS wrote: We learn that knowledge from the preaching of the word.
John for JESUS wrote: Faith is an act of the unregenerate sinner apart from apart from any divine work except for Him sending those who preach His word.
John for JESUS wrote: unregenerate sinners are able to believe and have the capacity to do so.
I'm assuming you're searching for the truth and not just quibbling. I believe that every I outa of Gods word is important.
Apart from any Devine work, one unregenerate anted up .01% and the other didn't. The difference is meritorious. That's ok, but just call it that and not grace.
There aren't three category of people in Romans - those who love God, hate God, and those that don't hate God cause they don't even know about God. 'Depart from me for I never knew you' doe's not mean that God was clueless about their existence. Knowing is in terms of having or not having a relationship. Ignorance is not innocence. Everyone is without excuse. Everyone knows but some suppress the truth.
John for JESUS wrote: I believe work is something someone does to earn a wage. Faith is not like that because we can't give God anything in order to earn eternal life.
The faith you speak of IS works. Consider: Two persons are extended the same grace. God does the same amount of work on both. What's the difference between one being saved and the other not? God put out the offer to both, but one man merited Gods favor by what he did. God did 99.99% and one man did the 0.01%. It came down to the MANS work, not Gods, that differentiated the two.
In you mind it's' "well God did 99.9999999% right? And that's where the "grace" part is." The question is, was there ANY part where man merited the favor?
Michael Hranek wrote: CV the assurance of Salvation ..completely and entirely forgiven, justified, regenerated by the Spirit of God, and now belongs to Jesus forever, never to be lost by Him is the most liberating realities a child of God can have,
If that is not the most liberating place to be, then I don't know what is. It is absolutely freeing to know that it was His grace and nothing in our hands that we brought. And we are humbled and in awe that there is no one stepping forward to bring a charge against Christ's righteousness, for that is what is reckoned to us. No one can lose their salvation by being clothed in His righteousness.
Anyone who claims salvation and lives for the devil does not change who God is and the love with which He came to us calling. A saint is not someone who is presumptious about grace and looks for loopholes. A saint is someone who cannot get over the fact at who it is that has loved him . A saint is someone who is in reverence and awe, joyfull and ecstatic, because the God at who's presence the universe trembles and the angel cover themselves, has claimed you and is sovereign over everything about you. There's nothing more freeing
This God I know. Praying for u & your's. All His blessings
John for JESUS wrote: The Bible says faith is not a work.
The faith the bible speaks of is a gift. The faith of "Tom" is him exercising his free will apart from the power and the influence of the Holy Spirit. You all switch back and forth mixing up the two to make your arguments appear to conform biblically.
Mike wrote: What is the thing that the bubble boy does but claims another?
Tom and Harry are extended the same grace. God does the same amount of work on both. Tom merits Gods favor because of what he did. Toms work is necessary to add to the work of salvation. Passing Tom's work as "grace alone" when it is meritorious, the grace alone that couldn't save Harry.
Michael Hranek wrote: Lord Jesus Christ will keep forever and save to the uttermost those who believe on Him.
If you mean what you say, fine. But if you only use bible verses and biblical lingo but hold to "free will", then just say so. If Jesus keeps you, then you believe you cannot lose your salvation, correct?
Troll spotter wrote: If the issue is free will, then whether the gospel is revealed to some and not to others the question proves nothing.
If the gospel is not revealed to some, then how are they to decide upon it? You will need to explain this further. At this point this is all I see it as.
Troll spotter wrote: If the issue is free will, then whether the gospel is revealed to some and not to others the question proves nothing. It would only matter if someone was arguing against election. As far as I am aware that has not been the issue in this thread and so the question asked is irrelevant at best.
SteveR wrote: You claim 35 years of salvation and you never heard this? You dont pass the small test for a Christian sorry.... "Again as asked to JFJ I understand Reformed Theology is both counter intuitive and counter cultural, so I understand your desire for a different TULIP. So let me ask some questions about your new TULIP and the most famous passage of todays culture John 3:16 You also quoted Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? I ask you, Was God unable to save those peoples he loved (Jn 3:16)that didnt have contact with missionaries? Like the Natives of North and South America prior to Western exploration"
Your questions legit.
If man responds on his own to the gospel after hearing, then those tribes that never heard the message perished.
If man's response is a deciding factor, then God was unjust in withholding something they needed to be saved. Michael, if your premise is correct, then either way, God by inaction "unelected" some.
John for JESUS wrote: God doesn't need our help to save us! God's work of salvation has already been completed by Jesus Christ.
You say this
But you mean this
CV wrote: The point is that you believe that it takes an act of your will to move Gods work on salvation accross the finish line - without which God is helpless. And you have to believe that it is your will, not God, that has to MAINTAIN that standing on salvation.
You guys always talk in terms of "grace alone" and "without works",etc etc.
The only thing that distinguishes the saved from the unsaved is that you excercised faith and your neighbor didn't. You merited salvation by your "faith". You earned it and keep it by holding on. It's NOT "grace alone", because both you and the "damned" are offered the same "grace alone".
Michael Hranek wrote: CV Wow! Don't like either one??? I guess I really, really, really missed it then in recommending C.H. Spurgeon's sermon "The Blood" here on SermonAudio as (quote) WELL WORTH LISTENING TO (end of quote) Perhaps you ought to listen to "The Blood" by C.H. Spurgeon yourself so that you will really really know what I don't like. ROTFL btw for others reading my post CV might be an example of the "modern day Calvinist types" that IMHO would be different from someone like C.H. Spurgeon. also just got online a little while ago and want to read up on a better tulip someone has posted, at a brief glance even though it looks like it needs refining I kind of liked and appreciated it anyway.
The point is that you believe that it takes an act of your will to move Gods work on salvation accross the finish line - without which God is helpless. And you have to believe that it is your will, not God, that has to MAINTAIN that standing on salvation.
That's the "better" tulip you want to give us.
Michael, this is another gospel. It is a shame that like SBC, Christians in general make allowances to "stand together" with this gospel that elevates man and demotes God. It's not an attack on you but on this gospel that is an outright heresy.
Michael Hranek, you make comparisons between "Spurgons Calvinism" and "modern day Calvinism", the truth is you don't like either one. So I don't know what if any that point makes. Your doctrine is "free will", much like J4J's. At least J4J clearly articulates his position, even if it is nonsensicle most of the time.
Micheal, can a free willer say that anyone is secure in their salvation? Because if God did NOT override your will to get you there, doe's He override your will and "force" you to stay on? No free willer can believe in the security of the saints!!
Michael Hranek wrote: You really ought to weep that some make (quote) their version of Calvinism into somekind of idol, BTW I very much do believe in Salvation by works, that would be the finished work of Christ, don't you???
No! Christ work is not finished. You finish it by your work -- of "FAITH". The ultimate form of idolatry is "SELF" wanting to be god, and it's genesis is in the garden