Treading water are you? Regurgitating what's already been answered? Just keep referring back to my last post.
The basis of your arguement so far has been:
The GC was only for the desciples because - Only they were there
-But it's also an example for us, ...
-But then again it can't be for us, cause we'd have to wait & start in Jerusalem. (I kid you not).
Paul's included in the GC Paul's not
Under Jesus leadership, the desciples WB'd. -But Jesus didn't say anything. So He spoke agaist it!
The Desciples did both, water & Spirit baptism. -Because the desciples did SPIRIT baptism, it's proof that it was under Gods authority. The desciples did WB. Just because they did, is not proof in favor of it.
There's no instruction for either water or Spirit - there no instruction for water
In ACTS 10/11 Peter water baptises, then harbours a secret regret which only J4 can decipher using Joseph Smith magic glasses.
J4 Don't you love it when your deception is unmasked? We haven't got to the best yet. Basically, anytime you have J4 cornered, he switches sides. He blows out of both sides of the arguement on every issue.
What J4 does is, after something has been dealt with clearly, J4 will repost it as if it has never been heard before. A J4 Special.
John for JESUS wrote: 1 Apostles were baptizing proselytes. maybe you can answer why only Gentiles were baptized?
2 Yet somehow Peter lays hands By what authority did he do that?
3 We both know from scripture that Jesus didn't teach a command to baptize in water
4 So when He tells His disciples to go and baptize, how were they supposed to do that? Not with water!
5)There are examples of them doing it with the Holy Spirit, so why won't you accept it?
1 This is YOUR hairbrain theory to explain your wacky theology. It's NOT biblical.
2 The existence of Spirit baptism is not at issue nor is it a proof against water. We were on ACTS 10/11 where Peter baptises with water. You left that to quote Spirit baptism. They did both under the one authority
You've chosen to accept one and dismiss the other. For that, you alone claim that authority. . The apostles laid hands under Gods authority. The junk YOU attach is NOT part of that authority. Asking for a yes here does not give you a free pass to piggyback your junk.
Points 3,4,5 Not that ANY of your posts have a point. The apostles water baptised. Why don't you accept that?
What was it about baptism in the GC that was only for the apostles. Did Paul have same authority & pwr
John/UK ACTS 19 is not conclusive on WATER. That Paul laid hands, it tells us.
We don't discount water baptism, nor the laying on of hands by the apostles. The resident evil here tries to steer the arguement to be one agaist the other. That way he gives the appearance of having equal biblical defence just by presenting the existence of the other. You present water. He presents Spirit. Did the apostles baptise by laying hand? See, you were arguing agaist Spirit baptism all along. Now he can add His spin.
It's revolting for someone so twisted to quote scripture.
Where there are clear conclusive proof of water baptism by the apostles, J4 dismisses the apostles as dumb & he is right.
In ACTS 10 &11 God via a vision sends Peter to preach at a Gentiles house. Peter preaches, they recieve the Holy Spirit. Peter water baptises.
What baptism is Peter telling us the GC means? Water. Did Peter think there was command to lay hands? NO! But Dodo says God repeatedly breaks His own command of laying hands by circumventing around himself
ACTS 11:16 is God authenticating the message going out to the Gentiles.
Against such an obvious simple reading of the nerrative, this time J4 has Peter put out a 'J4 hidden cryptic message'. How does J4 know? He says he thinks. Scary!
John for JESUS wrote: 5)No, you can look it up. No Gentiles were baptized in water after Acts 11. 6) I was think more along the lines of, "Then I remembered..."
"Then I remembered..." Peter remembers Jesus' promise of the Holy Spirit
You want him to remember that he was not to baptise with water.
That's why when you offered in the past to quote scripture, I didn't bother. Because you wouldn't have understood what the bible was saying anyways.
' Preaching is not baptising'
Has it occured to you that the baptism that happens here is not through laying of hands but through preaching? Neither did it occur to Peter that YOUR Great Commission command was for the apostles to baptise with the Holy Spirit.
John for JESUS wrote: 1) I only recall questioning whether it could be considered
But ..it is not a direct act, as you say.
"only recall questioning whether it could be considered?"
how long have I asked you a direct question? So FINALLY, laying of hands is the ONLY direct act to the direct command to baptize in the GC! SEESH!!!
Your Points 1,2,3 could have been cleared a long time ago. Slither/wafle/wafle
Your Point 4 Don't let me hand you yours in a platter agian, if you wanna wafle on that, then just do it.
Your #5 You're kidding! Your kooky theology stands/falls on YOUR ANALYSIS of "tenses/grammer etc" of of a translated bible. You can't see that v17 starts with "SO IF"? Here, PETER's TELLING YOU what the preceding statement meant to him.
And your twisted way is over and above Peters? Give it up!
Here's ACTS 11:16-17 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‚ÄėJohn baptized with[a] water, but you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.‚Äô 17 SO IF God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God‚Äôs way?‚ÄĚ
Your responses are always a garbled mess. But we're stuck between answereing or going on. We'll check out your Corinthians messup.
You cant say HOW your baptism was carried out. Hands/preach? You fudge it.
Next, according to you, you have the desciples carrying on something they're not supposed to.
9/27/13 1:25pm Water baptism is a holdover from Judiasm
According to you, WB was mikhvah. What on earth were the desciples doing taking Christians, initiating them into some Judaistic ritual. At one time they were doing it right under Jesus's nose. According to you Jesus had to ditch them. (Though you were set straight here too and your theory took a beating. You had to create a tension here between Jesus & appostles if they are to disagree? Oh just waffle on J4)
Anyway, NONE of them back there had the understanding and insight you have.
But you're too much of a weasel to come out and say it. You just "allow" them. They are "not wrong". (Except for when you slip up)
What about Paul. Did he WB'ise? Then he didn't get it either.
Or did he speak of Spirit baptism only. You do use 1Cor1: as proof that Paul could only have meant Spirit baptism or he'd be disobeying the GC. Out of space here so we'll check you theory in another post & see if it holds.
You like slow moving debates because your contradictions are spread out
9/27/13 1:25pm God's word is clear though that true baptism saves
J4 loves these debates. That's why he steers us here instead of looking at how he does operates.
He applies different standards at different times to get a win.
To make his whacky idea work, J4 flip/flops his way through. There isn't any place he hasn't back flipped his way through.
Here's double standard J4 telling us that no 'how to' verses for either baptism is 'strong proof' against WB. The apostles can't be followed. But 'there are verses which show how the Apostles baptized in the Holy Spirit' which support his view.
10/28/13 3:27 pg15 The whole idea of Jesus supposedly telling them to perform a water ritual is a whole different topic. I don't believe He did Pg21 There is also no mention of a definite mode, age requirement, or purpose for water baptism in the N.T.
8/26/13 6:13PM PG 21 there isn't a place in scripture that says to be baptized in water you are to get into a river and be dunked in water while standing on one foot for the purpose of making a public confession of faith
10/5/13 4:25am pg17 Yeah, let's base our doctrine off of everything the Apostles ever did! ..I'm sure Jesus knew what they were doing, but it doesn't mean He taught them too
Points 7&8 is about how you think the baptism of the Holy Spirit was. to be performed. According to you it was like this, no like this, no maybe..
We all believe that there is both, water and Holy Spirit baptism for Christians. You believe one & not the other. So where you quote scripture on baptism of the Holy Spirit, you want us to be like you, argue against the existence of the other - against your proof texts. We're not like you.
Holy Spirit bapt'm is God doing and man receiving & always spoke of in those terms. Scroll back down to YOUR post & look. He(God) baptised. (Men) WERE baptised
WB is always spoken of in terms of man baptised.
Mat2:2-12 Jesus tells a paralytic your sins are forgiven. Cheap talk anyone can say that. But a religious leader or rabi, that's blasphemy. Only God can! Scribes go balistic. So Jesus asks, what's easier for Him to claim, to forgive or to say walk? If He can speak life to a dead, is there any doubt to His authority?
There were many spokesmen for many gods. The apostles, like the prophets, were sent with authority to speak for The God eg laying of hands and other miracles.
Man was called preach & baptise and it hasn't ceased. Man never could Bptise with Holy Spirit that cant any more
UPS Debates get heated over differences. But I cant tolerate someone who's shifty & dishonest. This guy can reach over for your wallet and deny taking it while he holds it to your face.
Woo hoo J4, in all this, your biggest gotcha moment is the word 'pout'? It wasn't in my original point because I knew you'd pout.
Here's your Jesus pouting & leaving town- 'When He hears what his disciples are doing He departs to Samaria'
I didn't engage you for you to give your garbled incoherent interpretations. You've been doing that for years. I am exposing your two faced backflip responses. Then we let you loose
Your gloating over some 'strong proof' is YOUR ALLEGED lack of verses about 'how to' WB in the bible. Your wining submission is YOUR ADMISSION that there are no verses to show how to baptise with the Holy Spirit. Are you that daft?
The apostles are our example. Except when they WB. Then they're in error.
Proof #'s 7&8 will be about J4's 'how to' baptise with the Holy Spirit. It's hands. No, it's preach. No, hands. God does it. Preach, that's literally the act of baptising. But sometimes they don't know that it is happening. It's not done anymore. It was only for the disciples......
I've got 7&8 left of the challenge. You wanted me to prove that you said what you admit you've said? The challenge at that point was to put a bravado front. You haven't denied any of the points. You've simply explained/rationalised. I don't care if you wana change. None of your points have been consistent anyways. You've waffled & cheated because it kept falling apart.
What' are you complaining about in your last post?
DID YOU SAY THAT there's no verse showing how to baptise with the Holy Spirit.
Every Cristian believes in the baptism of the Holy Spirit. So quoting verses for that is not proof that there's no water baptism.
You were asked the question because you had gone on about there being nothing given about water bapt'm as proof against it.
You attacked WB because there's no verse showing how to do it. THERE IS NO VERSE SHOWING HOW TO BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. So much for all the hot air over that point.
So how do yo do say we know what to do? Follow the disciples. Ah but they are in error over WB! Don't follow! Ok, follow the bible cause it's inspired. So now the strength your wacky theology is based on the strength of impeccable waffled fuzzy interpretation. All of Christiandom is at mercy of YOUR mistique wisdom.
J4 we'll get to your defence later. There are two issues, your wacky views, your dishonest ways. I'll address the challenge for proof, then back to your dishonesty.
We'll get to that John/uk
Back to J4's challenge for proof
Point #6 J4 admits they weren't told how
Proof 10/26/13 12:11 page16
UPS ASKED What verse do you see the Lord teaching his disciples that they would baptize people with the Holy Spirit?
J4 responded There are none. Just as there are none of Him teaching them to baptize in water either.
I can't tell you how much of a big deal J4 made over this point against water baptism, yet here he is admitting -
For point 4 (Jn3:22/23)
J4's theology had, when Jesus found out the disciples were baptising, He pouted and left town. But J4 was corrected, so J4 had an epiphany & left town.
10/4/13 9:14pm page17 What did Jesus have to say about baptism in those verses? That's right! Nothing. For another thing, it clearly says Jesus baptized not, but His disciples
10/5/13 4:25am page17 There is never a case in scripture where Jesus either baptized people in water directly or commanded for it to be done. When He hears what his disciples are doing He departs to Samaria
J4 My issue was not to "debate" our interpretations on baptism. We will, in time! Your interpretations are wacky and will come out as we go along anyways. But for now, i am not primarily debating your view. You can even change your view.
My issue with you is that you are dishonest. You will decieve and twist when you need to, to get your kooky beliefs accross.
You asked for proof. For what? To imply that you hadn't said it? Then go on to prove each one biblical?
Here it is- There's a difference between "recall" & "realize". One is memory/rememfrance & other is to be aware that it took place.
To work your baptism of Holy Spirit into 1Cor1:16, you had to state that Paul did not always REALIZE he was baptizing.
No matter. You said something, take your pick!
CV wrote -
9) Mat28 wasn't for all Christians anyways. Not even for Paul. 10) 'Though Paul did baptise. 11) Sometimes he didn't even know he was doing it.
J4 challenges me to show where he said it, (& then defends it also!) -
10) Paul did baptize. You do understand that, right? 11) Paul didn't recall if he had baptized anyone else.
1ST proof 8/28/13 5:51AM page20 2) I don't believe it strange of Paul to say because he may not have known if someone was baptized without him realizing it.
LIdough wrote: Mohler said this just the other day that the churches lack of doctrine in these two areas alone has enabled other sins such as same sex marriage. Later this year the SBC is hosting a marriage conference to finally nail down their divorce and remarriage doctrines.
After we re-arrange the chairs on the Titanic, we shouldn't allow queers and gays on the promenade deck. Only the Evanjellyfishes should be allowd to waltz around RE-defining marriage.
How dare the queers? OH the nerv! Only Christians should be allowed to change the bible
(SteveR doe's stand up for the Roman Catholics. And unfortunatelly, the Roman Catholism as well. Sometimes we swing too wildly at both.)
UPS wrote: "You still have to give him credit for being civil in his discussion of the matter"
If it was just a matter of a different view, you would have had a point. Every view under the sun has made it's rouns before.
My beef is the dishonest way this scammer works.
Look at this, he's called for date/time to give the appearance that he's caught me out - called for proof! Why call for it if he knows what I posted is true? Because he want's to look good here and knows that later it will be forgotten!
We're not arguing bible interpretations, he's good at that game. We're laying out what he said. His posts are on record. Not much wriggle room here.
He called me to prove. Then he went on to explain rather then onject to what I said. In all that, the best escape hole he found was that he was "corrected". Actually, he was stumped and left town for a while.
Now UPS, I'll provide the proof.
He hasn't objected to what i have said. He can't. He will give more tripe to smooth it over.
John for JESUS wrote: 1) Okay, let's see the date and time.
John for JESUS wrote: John's baptism in water is in the past (John "baptized" in the past tense)
I want to show what a crackpot you are. I will get to baptism later. But first, I want to show the dishonest way you arrive at your theology. I will be referencing your very own posts, but because of space, I'll leave out the date/time unless you ask
Before we leave baptism - This crackpot believes that there's no water baptism - 'John baptIZED' is in the past tense. Not that just us Christians got it wrong, but the apostles too. In fact, when Jesus was with the apostles & found out that they were baptising back then, He ditched them & left town.
J4 says in Mat28:16, Jesus said to baptise with the Holy Spirit, not water. J4 admits they weren't told how. They laid hands but they stopped, also thru preaching. But nobody baptises now. God does it now. Mat28 wasn't for all Christians anyways. Not even for Paul. 'Though Paul did baptise. Sometimes he didn't even know he was doing it.
J4 your theology has to takes some pretty stupid hops at critical junctures to make it work. But you're good at lying and smoothing it over. This is what we will look at