God will raise up messangers for "hopeless" and he will still hear the message. But you can see the dangers of pentacostalisms dependance of "strong enough faith" and chasing and binding devils, to speaking in toungues to "show you have the spirit". This reliance on strong enough faith and doing enough to hold on to you salvation.

John for JESUS wrote:
(John 3:16)

"According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the 'world'" Ep1:4

For Armins, this world here must EXCLUDE people because if "before the FOUNDATION of the world" meant ALL of creation (which it does), then Gods done with choosing before man had a go at it!

EP1:4 establishes Christ as the head and representative of the 'elect' which the Father had given Him before creation, therefore He had the authority and the right to pay for the elect. God didn't look for just ANYONE that could live perfectly, then bank the 'rightiousness' and dole it out like indulgence. We have the concept of federal headship because of our fall resulting from Adams sin.

Michael Hranek wrote:
In Jesus' day it was NOT the religious who got it, the baptism of John the Baptist, but the publicans and prostitutes. Is it any different today???

A good presentation of the Gospel wo't cut it because the carnal mind is enmity (hate) against God. Unless God draws, nobody comes.

Michael Hranek wrote:
CV
I was speaking of men who presume to have everything figured out

Hope this discussion continues. This is NOT trivial.

Michael Hranek wrote:
If we are not careful we might be so caught up in "an everything figured out system of theology" that we forget the Triune God is a living being

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last - Rev22:13

For I am the LORD, I change not -Malachi3:6

Perhaps by having a discussion, we can draw out the truth of Gods word.

It makes more sense to pray to your God then to mine. But essentially, prayer is not to change God but to conform us to the image of Christ. It is so that we can turn to Him, who already knows it all, to trust and grow in a closer intimate relationship with Him. Prayer is for praise and worship of Him, and to grow in a childlike dependence and faith on Him for our very being.

We do not change God. Prayer Changes us. He's got it ALL figured out

Once you understand what Calvanism is, you'll see the irrelevance of this question. But while you may ask out of a genuine desire to understand, there are many who use this to mock Calvanism. "How can a Calvinist evangelise if God has predetermined who gets saved?" This is someone who wants to remain ignorant and has no desire to seek the truth. Much like a Muslim who accuses us of having three gods, or "how can god have a son?", (Mohammed belived Marry was the third member of the trinity.)

I hope we can exame Calvinism, here. It represents biblical Chritianity.

I am not a follower of Calvin. I am thakfull to God for people like pastor Calvin. But we must hold all man against biblical standards and call them on it when they deviate. No man is infallable and Calvin made mistakes.

Calvin did not come up with the 5-points of Calvinism, despite the ignorant that attack him for it. The 5-p's were a summary response to the attack on the Gospel by the followers of Arminian.

At core is the issue of whether God regenerates the sinner whom God has chosen vs man responding to God out of his "free will", free from Gods direct power and influence.

Ewdon wrote:
As Jesus Himself teaches,
Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:

"12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

This is not from some systematic theology book!

God indeed is gracious, and you can support that from scripture. But Gods work stops short of salvation. From start to finish, it takes two sides to complete the work.

John for JESUS wrote:
We learn that knowledge from the preaching of the word.

John for JESUS wrote:
Faith is an act of the unregenerate sinner apart from apart from any divine work except for Him sending those who preach His word.

John for JESUS wrote:
unregenerate sinners are able to believe and have the capacity to do so.

Apart from any Devine work, one unregenerate anted up .01% and the other didn't. The difference is meritorious. That's ok, but just call it that and not grace.

Mike

John for JESUS wrote:
CV...
So the one was rewarded for his/her obedience.

If salvation is a reward in return for obedience, then let it be so. But ANY amount of merit nulifies grace! Only one man earned that right!!

John for JESUS wrote:
I believe work is something someone does to earn a wage. Faith is not like that because we can't give God anything in order to earn eternal life.

Michael Hranek wrote:
CV
the assurance of Salvation ..completely and entirely forgiven, justified, regenerated by the Spirit of God, and now belongs to Jesus forever, never to be lost by Him
is the most liberating realities a child of God can have,

Learning

Anyone who claims salvation and lives for the devil does not change who God is and the love with which He came to us calling. A saint is not someone who is presumptious about grace and looks for loopholes. A saint is someone who cannot get over the fact at who it is that has loved him . A saint is someone who is in reverence and awe, joyfull and ecstatic, because the God at who's presence the universe trembles and the angel cover themselves, has claimed you and is sovereign over everything about you.
There's nothing more freeing

John for JESUS wrote:
The Bible says faith is not a work.

Mike wrote:
What is the thing that the bubble boy does but claims another?

Michael Hranek wrote:
Lord Jesus Christ will keep forever and save to the uttermost those who believe on Him.

John for JESUS wrote:
2) Correct, faith does not merit salvation. God saves the faithful as an act of His grace.

Michael Hranek wrote:
some you have labeled as Arminian because they do indeed have faith in Christ alone for Salvation, very much apart from any works they have done

It's irrespective of whether you admit works here or not. The difference is so blatantly obvious for all to see.

Christ's work is insufficient in and of itself to move salvation across the 'finish' line, you 'finish' the work.

There's a story of a teacher questioning a student if he was chewing gum in class, the student shook his head indicating 'no' as he was popping a big bubble in his mouth.

Like the bubble boy, Armins do one thing but claim another. Armin salvation is based on merit, as opposed to grace. It's irrespective whether they admit the obvious.

Can you loose your salvation?

Troll spotter wrote:
If the issue is free will, then whether the gospel is revealed to some and not to others the question proves nothing.

Troll spotter wrote:
If the issue is free will, then whether the gospel is revealed to some and not to others the question proves nothing. It would only matter if someone was arguing against election. As far as I am aware that has not been the issue in this thread and so the question asked is irrelevant at best.

SteveR wrote:
You claim 35 years of salvation and you never heard this? You dont pass the small test for a Christian sorry....
"Again as asked to JFJ
I understand Reformed Theology is both counter intuitive and counter cultural, so I understand your desire for a different TULIP. So let me ask some questions about your new TULIP and the most famous passage of todays culture
John 3:16
You also quoted
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
I ask you, Was God unable to save those peoples he loved (Jn 3:16)that didnt have contact with missionaries? Like the Natives of North and South America prior to Western exploration"

If man responds on his own to the gospel after hearing, then those tribes that never heard the message perished.

Michael Hranek wrote:
CV
Ah, did you listen to C.H. Spurgeon's sermon "The Blood"???

Micheal
Spurgon was a Calvinist. You're OPPOSED to it. Yet you were able to hear it from your perspective.

John for JESUS wrote:
God doesn't need our help to save us! God's work of salvation has already been completed by Jesus Christ.

But you mean this

CV wrote:
The point is that you believe that it takes an act of your will to move Gods work on salvation accross the finish line - without which God is helpless. And you have to believe that it is your will, not God, that has to MAINTAIN that standing on salvation.

Michael Hranek wrote:
CV
Wow! Don't like either one??? I guess I really, really, really missed it then in recommending C.H. Spurgeon's sermon "The Blood" here on SermonAudio as (quote) WELL WORTH LISTENING TO (end of quote)
Perhaps you ought to listen to "The Blood" by C.H. Spurgeon yourself so that you will really really know what I don't like. ROTFL
btw for others reading my post CV might be an example of the "modern day Calvinist types" that IMHO would be different from someone like C.H. Spurgeon.
also just got online a little while ago and want to read up on a better tulip someone has posted, at a brief glance even though it looks like it needs refining I kind of liked and appreciated it anyway.

That's the "better" tulip you want to give us.

Micheal, can a free willer say that anyone is secure in their salvation? Because if God did NOT override your will to get you there, doe's He override your will and "force" you to stay on?
No free willer can believe in the security of the saints!!

Michael Hranek wrote:
You really ought to weep that some make (quote) their version of Calvinism into somekind of idol,
BTW I very much do believe in Salvation by works, that would be the finished work of Christ, don't you???