Michael Hranek wrote: If Christians, especially pastors saw the Truth of this we would all be 'sitting in sackcloth and asses' repenting of the sin of our indifference
Right Michael. If only the Christians read and studied the Westminster Confession of Faith they would learn the truth and the true theology of God.
WCF 25/6. There is no other Head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ:a nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the Church against Christ, and all that is called God.b a. Eph 1:22; Col 1:18 â€¢b Mat23:8-10; 2Thes 2:3-4,8-9; Rev 13:6.
BUT Michael the Elect will be saved:: 3/3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels [a are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death. [b a. Mat25:41; 1Tim 5:21 â€¢b. Prov 16:4; Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6.
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.a a.John 13:18; 2Tim 2:19.
John UK wrote: I guess Calvin is your god, your master, and the wcf your book of instructions.
Same old John!! As I have pointed out before if you folks cannot read the Bible in these confessions and in Calvinist doctrine - Then you cannot read the Bible. Period!!
Here is a present for you straight from Scripture VIA the Westminster Confession.
WCF 3/2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,a yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.b a. 1Sam 23:11-12; Mat 11:21,23; Acts 15:18. â€¢b. Rom 9:11,13,16,18
WCF 9/3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;a so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,b and dead in sin,c is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.d a. John 15:5; Rom 5:6;8:7. â€¢b. Rom 3:10, 12. â€¢c. Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13. â€¢d. John 6:44, 65; 1Cor 2:14; Eph 2:2-5; Titus 3:3-5.
28/3. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring or sprinkling water upon the person.a a. Mark 7:4; Acts 2:41;16:33; Heb 9:10,19-22.
The SBC, the Baptists of America having trouble making decision on Biblical Calvinism suggests an Arminian influence creeping in. And as we know a little leaven tends to leaven the whole lump.
If we take the Biblical Doctrines of Grace (TULIP) and specifically Limited Atonement. Then ... Limited Atonement is Unequivocal Certain Self Evident Infallible Historical Fact Inevitable Essential.
Whereas the alternative Arminian Atonement is Universal Uncertain Dubious Idolatrous Insulting of Christ Unstable Conditional upon the sinner (therefore sin) Indeterminate Random Casting doubt on the blood of Christ.
Arminians teach that salvation can be lost. This must be the way in which Arminians loose their salvation::- Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection."
Michael Hranek wrote: being somekind of Arminian Freewiller. Making it an either or proposition when Biblical Christianity is not at all a matter of Calvinism vs Arminianism but of whether one has the Son or not.... So let me ask what in the world has happened to genuine Biblical Christianity
Michael "genuine Christianity" (by the Book) Is Calvinism!!
Salvation is either by God alone = Calvinist theology. OR By God plus Man's help = Arminian! (And RCC, JW and all the other tom dick and harry invented false religions)
So take your pick Michael, Calvinism by the Bible - or Arminianism which relegates the Bible and doctrine to supplement status consulted only if absolutely necessary.
Mike wrote: Pretending that a man agreeing with God of his own hopeless sinful nature is somehow God needing man's help, is no more than self-serving. The accusation that this amounts to sinners overcoming sin "by their own volition" is your fiction. Repeating fiction often leaves it fiction still.
The Reformers Puritans And the synod of Dordt ALL fought against the heresy of Arminius. They all recognised the Arminians view of sin as being something they didn't need God's help with. Also the Arminian hold faith as counted towards righteousness because it is in itself actual personal righteousness. But the Bible points to none are righteous. The Total Depravity of man precludes this error. BTW The Arminian theory that justifying faith is in the last analysis not only mans act but also his work (with a wee tweak of prevenient grace) is the road to Rome plodded by the Arminian. Where you get this "divine" attribute by the sinner to "agree with God" about sin and his hopelessness, when man cannot even discern spiritually is beyond Bible doctrine. You give to man what is not in him to know or use without divine help.
Michael Hranek wrote: I have good reason to, no matter how religious some make their version of Calvinism out to be
The real problem you are conveying in your posts is that Biblical Calvinism is not getting through to you and others on the board. Therefore I am worried that your theology is clouding your ability to read what's there and clear in the Bible. T = Refers to the sin dominion which man finds himself in and from which he needs saving from by Christ. U = God looks for NIL merits or abilities or decisions in man to elect him. God elects from before the world began. God does not base election on any foreseen response of obedience such as faith or repentance whatever. L = Christ's redeeming work on the Cross ALONE was intended BY GOD to save His elect. Thus does GOD alone Limit Christ's Atoning work. I = The inner work (Calling) of the Holy Spirit brings the elect to salvation. This call cannot be rejected by the sinner. Therefore it is efficacious! P = The elect who are Chosen by GOD, redeemed by Christ and provided with faith the gift of GOD are eternally saved. They are kept thus by the power of GOD alone.
Now why don't you believe this Bible TULIP? Is it TULIP or BIBLE you cannot receive?
Michael Hranek wrote: You forgot (was this convient or intentional) the unsaved "Calvinist"
I have seen your hate of the Biblical Calvinist usually because of their support for a Sovereign God and Salvation by God alone.
The Five Points were brought out at the Synod of Dordt to rebuke the heretical Arminian Remonstrance which to Biblical Christians are obviously unbiblical heresies.
Many in churches today support the Arminian free will sinners who believe they can save themselves - or cooperate with a god who needs their help ideologies. It is interesting to note that this Arminian concept is also held by the Roman Catholics and the Jehovah's Witnesses. That of itself demonstrates how heretical and unbiblical these religious ideologies are.
Promoting the sinner to the same level as God and pretending that sinners can overcome sin by their own volition is complete fiction as the real Christian knows. But this is where we find the religious convictions of the Arminian type.
Calvinism holds and upholds the Biblical position in the Doctrines of Grace. The Reformers, Puritans and other historic Bible carrying Christians have taught and held this truth. I am sorry that there are some who cannot receive this Biblical truth.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: What a waste, because no human effort is required.
Ups. There are two types of person who cannot serve God's purposes. First the unsaved reprobate. Second the unsaved reprobate church attender who thinks he is saved eg Roman Catholics and Arminians.
The "permanently" unsaved are of course non-elect.
The non-elect might attend church but his human faculty "faith" will achieve the sum total of nothing as far as salvation is concerned.
These reprobates are in the circumstance described as ..... "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Cor 2:14. "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:7,8.
Now Ups "human effort" as you put it - 1) Will these unsaved reprobates achieve anything independently of God, on the road to salvation? 2) Will the true elected Christian "achieve" anything on the road to salvation? - AND will this be entirely independent of the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Which works based salvation theory do you propose - Will work?
Michael Hranek wrote: Do you have any idea what you are talking about? So how are the elect saved? Does salvtion just drop on them unwanted ... ?
"How are the Elect saved?" Your question almost seems like a nonsense? As if you are doubting God's ability to save 'IN' CHRIST! I quoted two verses from John chapter six which demonstrate that GOD does the DRAWING to Christ. and Christ promises to raise the drawn person - the elect - up at the last day! Michael can't you see God's perfect act of election right there? - ZERO human effort is required!! None!! Zilch!! God does the whole act of election and Christ died specifically for the elect and the Holy Spirit specifically dwells in only the elect - who are regenerated by the Spirit. "Jn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." _____________
GSTexas wrote: I never said I dont believe in the doctrine of grace only that nowhere in scripture is such a belief required for salvation
That seems contradictory GS. You believe in the Doctrines of Grace. Great!! But the Doctrines of Grace are Bible doctrines. For you then to admit that you don't see belief in the Bible as the means to salvation is a contradiction.
Michael Hranek wrote: AND JUST A BRIEF WORD HERE Some versions of Calvinism actually discourage if not outright hinder/condemn anyone from seeking the Lord that He might save them from their sins (are you in that camp???)
God's Elect will be saved Michael. Christ Jesus states..... John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Whereas you applied the Arminian style human/sinner seeking the Lord - Jesus teaches a different method altogether.
Michael you aren't falling into the old popish trap are you? I remember you said you were brought up in the idolatrous RCC.
The sinner "seeking" without the indwelling Holy Spirit is just going to find free will religious babble - NOT the salvation of God.
Election - predestination - calling - come from the foreknowledge of God - NOT the blind sinners inability to even discern spiritual knowledge.