If John is "for real" here and not just trolling to stir the pot, this subject is a difficult one for the person who believes they must act on their own part. I was there, and these were not foreign concepts to me but I had been taught they were wrong. The burden on my soul to save myself was staggering! When God woke me to His truth... Well, nothing so crushing and humbling and joyous and liberating had ever entered my mind. And now I look at this with awe - my God acts ALONE. He needs no one and nothing. He never wrings His hands waiting for something to happen or hoping we make a good choice. He is never taken by surprise. It is ALL in His control because He has ordered it, caused it, made it, exacted it, willed it, blessed it to be so. It has been done and He has determined who will go to be with Him and who will burn in the lake of fire - the choice is from a sovereign God and what a relief for His people! The verse where Christ says to take up His yolk (Matt 11:29) has a whole different meaning for His elect verses the vain pursuit of those who do not believe in a God big enough to be in control. Adriel and Kev have posted some of the most beautiful words to a sinners ears. God doesn't have to love anyone but He does love His children with a jealous love. Remem
Are the prayers of the righteous effective because they petition God to change His mind; or is it rather that the righteous person, through the loving command to pray, experiences the moving of the Holy Spirit in their hearts to conform their will to God's?
Mike, great point that I wish/hope would be heeded. Years ago a group of engineers modified a wheat plant with fish scales to stop a certain strain of rust that was devastating African wheat fields. Suddenly people who had no family history of wheat allergies couldn't eat the wheat. Then a pattern of fish/shell fish allergies in these people began to emerge. Wasn't the corn, exactly. And Chris rightly pointed to Dolly. Love your last sentence.
Thanks Pilgrim, but the best comments were the scriptures that Frank posted. We're expecting baby 7 in late summer and it's something to be a part of this "mystery"!
In my humble opinion, there should be an enormous difference in the Christian head and heart between protecting and promoting. The fear of God is the wisdom we should be drawing from and in this we are to protect the innocent, those who cannot protect themselves (widows, children, physically limited, weaker members, etc). However, a group suffering the natural consequences from their sinful behavior does not deserve our protection lest they confuse it with promotion or acceptance. That doesn't mean we treat anyone abusivley, cruelly or unjustly, but we need to keep in mind *W(w)ho's* definition of "just" we use - theirs or God's. To the LGBT community, we are unjust and cruel for not allowing a man to use the women's restroom because he identifies as a woman. Their minds are perverse and their reasoning only follows. Allow the Holy Spirit to exact judgment that might be used to convict them of their sin as God draws them. Or maybe He is just letting their sin sweep them away. Tread carefully.
Beautiful passages that should humble us before a God who rightly claims control and creatorship over all things. What craziness in this world when the pot supposes it can one-up The Potter. I echo your sentiment: Oh come quickly Lord Jesus, come quickly!
And what an insult to the babies God made that are not "perfect" in their eyes! There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. (Prov 14:12; 16:25) There can be no good fruit from man intervening in this process. Let God do the knitting.
Hopped back on (may I reserve the right as a woman to do that? Lol) to say, Adriel, I have appreciated your last few comments, especially the pleasure of wine. I drink for both health and pleasure. I smiled when I read your comment about intoxication verses drunkenness and while I may not agree totally, since we are to be in control of our minds, I can't help but look at Noah who was held up as such a man of greatness. Drank himself into a stupor and passed out. Yet the admonishment was not his intoxication (for I do not believe he was a drunkard) but was on his son for HIS shameful conduct. Thank you for your honesty in looking at this - giving me some "food for thought", no pun intended!
Always ends the same way with anti-alcohol believers: it *is* a matter of spirituality in their books. And while they generally deny tying drinking to condemnation, their words eventually prove them out. S c is now asking Christians to justify their eating and drinking habits to them and BMcC feels the life lived in the Spirit cannot abide the effects of wine. How sad. Be honest. Be critical. You choose to not drink - there is no great holiness in this. I choose to drink. It does not make me holier. But, be honest. This is about more than eating and drinking, it always is to your kind.
May Christ work to break down our barriers between each other and Himself and continue to sanctify us while we joyfully open our hearts full and wide to the leading of the Holy Spirit, casting aside the doctrines of men and leaning not on our own understanding, but in all our ways acknowledging Him. Time for me to hop off this merry-go-round.
Frank, your comment made me laugh! I was just thinking "Didn't I once upon a time long ago say these discussions annoyed me??" and here I am far too many comments later. What's the saying? Patience: seldom see in women and less often in men? Hahaha. I think most of us tire quickly with these discussions because they always become a bad merry-go-round ride...
Pen, Nope! Just move along now... Nothing to see here...
US, Kev and Conner - these are the pinnacle arguments of Seventh-Day Adventist temperance beliefs; although I am sure others hold to belief. BMcC and sc have used the exact verbiage, texts and arguments I have heard for nearly 40 years. This cult endevors to bind the soul to what they eat and drink and what day they worship. My heart goes out to BMcC and s c because, should they be towing this SDA line (and I really don't know if they are, they just argue about this as an SDA would) they cannot budge from their temperance view because it would mean the downgrade or loss of their salvation. If they rightly divided the Scriptures in proper context and could be honest in looking at what it says, this would all be a non-issue. I couldn't care less what a true Christian eats or drinks as they'd between God and them. But binding this issue to salvation is a problem. (We have heard repeatedly from this thread that any consumption of alcohol is drunkenness and drunkards won't enter Heaven. This is the SDA stance.)
s c, your arguments really make no sense, and I am terribly sorry you do not see it. I am thankful, however, that you have a passion for doing what you think is right by Christ and as I said before, may God continue to teach us both. Just keep in mind Prov 19:2 "Even zeal is not good without knowledge".
Colossians 2:8-10, 20-23 (8) Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ. (9) For the entire fullness of Gods nature dwells bodily in Christ, (10) and you have been filled by Him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
(20) If you died with the Messiah to the elemental forces of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations: (21) Don't handle, don't taste, don't touch? (22) All these regulations refer to what is destroyed by being used up; they are commands and doctrines of men. (23) Although these have a reputation of wisdom by promoting ascetic practices, humility, and severe treatment of the body, they are not of any value in curbing self-indulgence.
Dialoging with only those whose choose to abstain but acknowledge moderation is not a sin, I respect your view greatly and you yourselves (Frank and UPS specifically). I have difficulty understanding why a Christian chooses to abstain from something Christ provided (water to wine), used and served (Passover comes to mind) and commended in a host of analogies (as in "I am the vine, and you are the branches" spoken of during the last supper). It seems to be provided for our enjoyment and health, our happiness and joy and more importantly, as a symbol of the ultimate sacrifice made on behalf of His wretched sinners. If we are commanded to take the Lord's Supper, what thought process allows one to change it to grape juice? I still maintain both should be served for those who hold a conscience toward abstaining from drinking, for the kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking, nor should such an issue cause division; but what allows one to change the sacraments laid out by Christ's hand? Really, just a question with zero ulterior motive. I do not and will not reply to the poster under the name SteveR; as a matter of fact, I skip anything with his name, just fyi.
s c, no worries, I will never ask you to drink with me. And when Christ returns, everything will be made clear and these non-salvation issues will finally be understood, if we even care at that point. I pray the Holy Spirit will continue to work in both of our lives, revealing His truth in His time and His way. God bless.
s c, "mixed wine" does not mean dilution, it means it was mixed with spices to enhance the flavor for diverse palet's. See Prov 9:1-5. Here, Wisdom has mixed her wine and offers it for all to drink. It is not diluted, it is spiced.
Prov 23:31, your interpretation for this text was to not even look at fermented drink. This is so taken out of context... If you back up to 29 and read through verse 35, this is obviously speaking of a drunkard. The glass is not red because of the wine, but because of bloodshot eyes of the drunk.
You should most certainly not consume any alcohol if you feel you shouldn't; and far be it from me to suggest we must drink. But you are lying to yourself here and being very dishonest in your interpretations.
UP, thank you. What a kind, honest statement. How good and pleasant it is when the body of Christ can get along! My dear husband felt the same way, but was so offended that someone would take the Lord's Supper so trivially and lightly. While wine is served at communion, grape juice is, too, for those who's conscience would say otherwise. Let the Holy Spirit do the convincing; we tend to muddle this up too much with opinions instead of facts. A peaceful night to all.
Pslm 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
God bless you gentlemen! We had an incident a few months previous in church during communion. The tray passed our way and lo and behold there was a row of WATER AND SALTINES. My husband who is generally quiet and deals with things the same way stood and rebuked the elders and pastor right there. A husband and wife said they were fasting and couldn't eat the bread and grape juice. So my dear husband lovingly launched into the finer points of the Lord's Supper. An elder commented that there are those who see the true evils of wine and would leave any church that served wine. When asked what would stop us from serving Coke and pizza bites at the next communion if we didn't have to follow Christ's example there was an lot of awkward silence. In the following weeks the pastor and elders did a study on the use of wine. We now serve wine during communion and look forward to the day when we will drink it with Christ in paradise!
This really gets old and is exactly why I had stopped commenting on SA. We take our life experiences, fit them into biblical law, and chuck the rest of the Bible out the window. Then wave our righteousness flag about how good we are now thanks to God and how pleased God is with us. Drunkenness is a sin, not drinking; gluttony is a sin, not eating; fornication, adultery and sexual immorality are sins, not relations in a marriage. Stop transmuting sin onto objects.
I grew up in the SDA church and have heard EVERY single argumemt against drinking alcohol in any form. They will not hold up against the Bible's lawful use of wine. If you are convinced it's a sin, be convinced unto God. In the end will come those who tell you what to eat and drink and sear the conscience of many weaker brothers and sisters in Christ when they are not sinning at all. The church has a long, healthy history of drinking alcohol. (By the way, look at the prohibition movement - it was started by women.) The problem is SIN, not alcohol.
Jim, people often confuse education with public schooling. I don't fault people for this because most of us have been indoctrinated to buy that load of hooey. But by biblical standards, education is discipleship, life skills, living. How many unemployeed men and women hold college degrees? Most of them. How will the "under privileged" be educated? That's not a difficult question. Give them life skills, and let them rise to a level they can live with instead of wasting 13 years in sub par schooling for... what, exactly? Government schools are not and were not established for this purpose and we have suffered for it ever since. The fruit on that tree is rottenly ripe and, sadly, plentiful. But it's just a stinking lot of entitlement, uncivilized, unsocialized, rude, disrespectful, ignorant adult-children that are a burden to society instead of a blessing. When you deviate from God's standards this is what you're left with.