John UK wrote:
Which is precisely my whole point. Faith in Christ expressed is followed by Christ indwelling

It is Christ who INDWELLS - not the Holy Spirit.

Where is the Holy Spirit then - on holiday???

Tell me John. Since you clearly do not accept the Holy Spirit and His function and role INDWELLING in the elect, are you a Jehovah's Witness and don't accept the Trinity and the 3rd person of the Trinity?

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN YOU. Rom 8:11

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the SPIRIT OF GOD THAT DWELLETH IN YOU? 1Cor 3:16

"That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the HOLY GHOST WHICH DWELLETH IN US. 2Tim 1:14

"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The SPIRIT THAT DWELLETH IN US lusteth to envy. James 4:5

Mike wrote:
I continue desiring to know why you think the Holy Spirit must indwell in order to do a work in a person

As Jesus replies to your question...
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

Note the last line - "THE HOLY GHOST WAS NOT YET GIVEN - [WHY?] = BECAUSE THAT JESUS WAS NOT YET GLORIFIED.

Thus this Pentecost changed the method and role of the Holy Spirit and only AFTER Jesus had been glorified.

Lurker wrote:
The problem is that you have separated Christ from the Word of God aka the gospel Paul preached.

This is what I meant by a 4th dimension, viz:
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

And you have added

God the sermon/preaching + hearing.

To the actual work of the Godhead.

As I have said to John the natural man is under the dominion of sin - the enemy of God, dead, (requires quickening) unable to spiritually discern, (spiritually blind + deaf) and blinded by Satan.

You have got man holding the linch pin to salvation by using human faculties of faith and repentance - which really are graces of redemption only from God.

Lurker wrote:
1) I quoted clear and concise scripture.

2) There is no place for God's whole counsel of truth in your systematic theology or your confessions of faith

2) What you mean by that is, "We don't read the truth and present it within your doctrine and theology."

The TRUTH never changes. When someone such as John Calvin or the Westminster divines were guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit centuries ago, - They came to the same theological expositions as the Reformed Church does today. And thats the Truth.

Your problem with Rom 10:17 (Not v7 as you have posted) - Is that you have separated faith and repentance from the work of God's Spirit.

Please tell me if you consider faith/repentance as a human faculty/ability?

___________

John UK

There is no two part work of the Spirit.
What the Holy Spirit does is indwell the elect of God.
Those who "HEARD" Peter "HEARD" by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Otherwise...
As GOD records and teaches;
They are;
DEAD IN SINS
AT ENMITY WITH GOD
WITHOUT SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT
BLINDED BY SATAN

John UK wrote:
if you do not believe that justification is by faith

Thats why I keep asking you for the name of your religion by works?

--------

Lurker wrote:
Hearing comes by the Word of God (the gospel preached)

But who is working the strings?

You are declaring that mortal power of sermonising and mortal power of audio reception of TRUTH therein emanates from human source, without divine intervention.

Is this your 4th dimension (in lieu of Trinity) working exclusively and independent of the Holy Spirit?

4th dimension - or salvation by works - in other words the sinner dead in sin, at enmity with God and unable to spiritually discern - SOMEHOW(?) CAN INITIATE THE PROCESS OF SALVATION.

John UK wrote:
when a man is justified he is saved, and that the Spirit himself comes to dwell within that person when he is saved

Who needs the Crucified Christ and the
Holy Spirit???
__________________________

Mike wrote:
An indwelt person is saved. Agree or not?

_______________

This is getting further and further away from Sovereign God and more and more towards "man save thyself" - (God's busy or whatever).

I'd still like to know what this new religion is called. Pelagian?

Lurker wrote:
faith cometh by hearing a HS indwelt preacher of the Gospel or by reading the gospel (John 20:31) which is preferable these days since most preachers don't even know what the gospel is.

Well Lurker "faith cometh by hearing" - But don't forget the natural man needs a hearing aid to hear the spiritual truth. That hearing aid is of course the indwelling Holy Spirit.

1Cor 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Cor 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

Well under my pseudonyms of "2 works," and "quicker by Spirit" I tried to get you guys to see the light. I guess you want Salvation by works or the 4th dimension???

I intend to remain with the Sovereign God and a Holy Spirit who is not limited by the theories of Man.

May the Lord bring you into the whole counsel.

ps the WCF is entirely Biblical.

John UK wrote:
you don't believe in the free offer of the gospel, and you will not accept God's word where it says that HE "now commandeth all men everywhere to repent."

Wrong where it teaches
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

Also
"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"

Also
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

And wrong of course
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works"

In your bible God has to wait for man to overcome sin and repent all by himself through the human faculty of faith.

I congratulate you John. You are the most devout hyper-Wesleyan around here.

____________

As for baptism in the Spirit as a second event this is Pentecostal baloney! There is only ONE baptism as the Bible states and that is babies and adults being brought into the Covenant of which the sign is sprinkled water.

Acts 1:5 merely compares Jesus with John - a phrase which John had used. Jesus Baptism of the Spirit is figurative language here for regeneration a much more powerful event from Christ, as opposed to human John.

Lurker wrote:
dwelling

The incredible public spiritual event of God's power in Acts 2 announced the Holy Spirit's NEW role in/for the church and future. There is no need to dwell WITH anymore.
Only two "births" are referred to by Jesus. 1. Born of the flesh. 2. Born of the Spirit. (Jn 3:6)
There is no intermediate stage, for faith/repentance to "appear". Also The Holy Spirit is the person in the Trinity who works grace in man. Therefore the idea that faith/repent emerge from a fourth dimension to the exclusion of the regenerating Spirit of God is not Biblical. There is no Biblical reason to exclude the Spirit. He enables faith and repentance in the new birth, BORN of the Spirit, regeneration. All in one!!

Lurker wrote:
dwelling

The question then is "How does the Holy Spirit work in man? What does indwelling mean?"
To dwell WITH is relatively easy, it seems to imply that the Spirit is stood next to you and is influencing you in a spiritual way by divine power.
To INDWELL implies that HE is actually operating inside the person again in a spiritual way. If dwell WITH was adequate why did the Lord change it? We can observe that dwell WITH was limited to certain individuals
Whereas INDWELL is about the church worldwide. Therefore the extent of the Spirit's influence has clearly been widened to include the entire church. But also brings into focus that God's work of grace and redemption on earth is being uniquely and effectually accomplished by His Spirit. Why separate faith and repentance from regeneration? Regeneration - Born of the Spirit - surely does it all. Jesus chose to "breathe" the Spirit into His disciples AFTER His glorification. "Dwell with" became the OLD WAY.

Lurker wrote:
dwelling

The answer I believe, is not in the actual whereabouts of the Holy Spirit but in the promise of Christ in v16,17.
The disciples were "aware" of the Holy Spirit. What HIS task was at this time was to help the Apostles and disciples to carry out the will of God whilst Jesus was with them.

The disciples needed the Spirit to provide them with divine help to receive the wisdom of God, receive the incarnation and to be aware of Christ and the Spirit. HE also gave them the grace of divine knowledge to preach the truth.

The fact that the Spirit did not need to be indwelling to do this work is simply confirmation of the power of God over His creatures.

But we have this promise throughout Scriptures that God's people (elect) will be enabled by the power of the Spirit. 1Chron 28:12, 1Sam 10:6,7, Psa 51:11, 139:7. And many more. The Spirit working with, dwelling with God's people is not new.

The promise however is new. Indwelling is new.

John UK wrote:
Acts 2:38

But thats not the 'Whole Counsel' of God - not even some of it. This is the same old RCC fallacy of salvation by works.

Peter here preaching is full of the Spirit. Any who respond in a spiritual way are indwelled by the Holy Spirit already, thus convicted of sin, thus with the gift of Faith can respond in repentance. The Holy Spirit wrought these Gifts of God in their hearts.

Peter is not suggesting that by human faculty sinners can 'persuade' the Lord to give them the Holy Spirit as an advance on their 'earned' wages of good works.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit alone both in Peter and in those who believed.

Lurker wrote:
In this text, both elements of God's work of the new birth are revealed but notice that regeneration is spoken of as "washing" with the indwelling of the HS following

What is this fourth dimension of the Godhead we wonder, which works INDEPENDENTLY of the Holy Spirit?
Lurkerism and JohnUKism introduce this fourth element of power to the exclusion of the Holy Spirit, that they can estasblish the Jacob Arminius party philosophy. Thus enabling the sinner to use human faculties as faith and repentance. (With a vague connection to the divine)

Both the OT and the NT teach that God's power amongst His creation and men is the "Spirit of God."
JohnUK would also separate the Holy Spirit at Acts 2:38. But ask yourself was it the human faculties of Peter which was preaching that day? Was it the human faculties of faith and repentance in the natural sinner who provided the conviction of sin to repent and believe?

John UK wrote:
were empowered for service, enabled to write scripture, and a host of other spiritual activities, without a work of the Spirit in their hearts and minds?

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, and shall be in you."

NB "dwelleth with you" (meno) is primary verb; to stay, in given place, state, expectancy.

NB "shall be in you" (esomai) is future tense of will be, shall/should be....etc.

David1960 wrote:
In John chapter 20:22 Jesus breathes on the disciples and says receive the Holy Spirit.Then in Acts chapter 1 verses 4-8 He tells them to wait for the Holy Spirit

In Acts 2 We see a miraculous public show of spiritual power from God, an incredible and unique event. The Holy Spirit makes an entry into the world in divine power, the power of God and thereby heralds and announces His arrival to the task of REGENERATION (indwell) - IN THE *CHURCH* - as opposed to just the disciples. Thus what in effect has happened is the fulfillment of Christ's promise (post glorification).
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was NOT YET GIVEN; because that Jesus was NOT YET glorified.)
NB:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter WILL NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John UK wrote:
(1) Do you seriously expect me to believe that Jesus was referring to his own

(2) those who responded were not yet quickened

(3) the new birth came first, before repentance and faith

(2) You have still NOT responded to the verses I posted. Whats up scared it will shoot down your theories?

(3) Do you believe this part of the Bible John? = "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Cor 2:14.

John 6:44 *NO MAN CAN* come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 16:13 Howbeit WHEN HE, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:"

Notice the FUTURE TENSE of Jesus words in this verse. Viz *When He" the Spirit - is come. That means it is a promise of a future event.
Christ had to be crucified before the Spirit came.

NB The tense in John 15:26.
And in 14:17 "dwelleth *WITH* YOU" - Then future tense = "shall be in you"

John UK wrote:
"How can an unregenerate people call Jesus 'Lord', pray to God, and appoint another apostle in place of Judas Iscariot?

I noticed that you ignored these verses I posted below;
JESUS SAID;
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: FOR IF I GO NOT AWAY, THE COMFORTER WILL NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"

Remember John & Co the Biblical term is "Born again Christian" - NOT "Baptised again Christian."

John 3:6 BORN OF THE SPIRIT.

The Holy Spirit which Christ promised came in power Acts 2 1-4 AFTER Christ had returned to heaven - NOT BEFORE.