penny wrote: John UK, well, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that. Like I said about the mechanics of the eye, it is a great mystery to me, and so I don't know that I would win points in anyone's court. But in the end our salvation is of the Lord, and so I have no claim rights on my salvation. God opened my eyes, helpless to see as I was. I do believe man has a will too and does terrible evil as you and Unprofitable Servant have been discussing. Is it alright that there be some mystery and awe to salvation? I'm off for now, so good day.
Penny, I believe there is a great deal of mystery and awe about the salvation of any sinner. It is a most wonderful thing, and not to be lightly spoken of. Some talk as if it were no more than like joining a golf club.
Yes, there is a holy atmosphere whenever one is convicted of their sins by the Almighty God (Spirit). It is none other than a visitation from GOD. Why does he come? He comes to save, to deliver from sin and death and hell. He applies the awesome redemptive blood of the Lamb to our lost estate, washing us clean and giving us Christ's righteousness, gifting us eternal life through his Son.
It is an amazing work of God to turn us around, that we might serve HIM.
Pennned... Sorry, a few post ago I addressed ladybug when I ment it for you.
As far as Ephesians 2:8:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Do you really believe the translation is that wrong and should actually read this way?
For by grace you have faith through being saved, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
It seems to me that in the real God breathed verse, being saved is the topic. His grace is why we have been saved and through faith is the means by which we receive His salvation. Anybody who has been saved, it is a gift of God given to us because of His grace and through our faith.
Michael, I jusy noticed the sermon above..."You shall have no other gods". Will give it a listen later. I'm glad.you identify yourself because I have a feeling there are other pastors who comment on the forum but remain anonymous (which is their perogative, of course).
J4J, As for 1 Timothy 1:16, that verse in no way nullifies regeneration. What was Paul addressing? He was speaking of his conversion- this is his 'testimony'. You have to read the verses prior to and immediately following to get the context. He tells us he was the chief of sinners, but he obtained mercy. Go back to Acts and the road to Damascus to see how God converted Paul. Paul believed immediately AFTER the Lord brought him to Himself and regenerated him. 'They heard, believed, and were sealed' - how were they able to hear? Who opened those deaf ears? Can you believe apart from being born again? What did Jesus tell Nicodemus, who was a religious leader and believed? Why did Christ tell him you have to be born again? Why does God say we are dead in sin until quickened, or made alive, by Him?
I've asked before, but you never answered. What makes your faith genuine? One final question, God says we are unable to receive spiritual truths in our natural state, yet you keep plucking verses out of context and force them to say something they do not and God does not say - that we can believe in our natural state. You refuse to believe the truth because it exposes your faulty theology. How is one 'in Christ'? By being born from above and gifted with faith!
Penned, good post and helps me to really see what's going on here. All I see is how evil they are that do these things and so your posts can be an eye opener in what's going on behind the scenes. Like Phil Harvey used to say, "now you know the rest of the story." Christropher, you should have been a writer because you take us to the heart of the matter and we get an insight into the pain and suffering of it all. The rejoicing comes in knowing they are now with their Saviour. Death, Jesus said, was the last enemy to be destroyed by His own death. You know, we are not facing this yet but we do we will be given the strengh and grace to face it and be at peace. We have not been given the strenght today for tomorrow's pain and troubles. When I faced cancer surgery, I had a peace that settled over me that I was going to get through this and God was there with me. If I died, I was going to be with Him but I felt I was going to live, He still had a work for me to do. That was July27,2004. Had I been told in 2000 that I was going to be facing cancer in 2004, I would have been frightened wondering about what all I would have to go through. I still had some anxiety at every check-up but that's normal reaction and I never lost that peace.
John UK, well, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that. Like I said about the mechanics of the eye, it is a great mystery to me, and so I don't know that I would win points in anyone's court. But in the end our salvation is of the Lord, and so I have no claim rights on my salvation. God opened my eyes, helpless to see as I was. I do believe man has a will too and does terrible evil as you and Unprofitable Servant have been discussing. Is it alright that there be some mystery and awe to salvation? I'm off for now, so good day.
You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
The unmerited favor of God isn't even shown until one is in Christ!
Romans 8:9 NKJV
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
If one is not in Christ, then they are not His. They are not His elect or heirs. There aren't any people walking around regenerated by God apart from being in Christ and there aren't any people in Christ apart from first believing! As I pointed out in my last post, Ephesians 1:13 says it is after believing that we are sealed in Him.
II Corinthians 5:17 NKJV
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
It is not until being in Christ that one is a new creature or regenerated.
pennned wrote: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8 faith is also a gift of God, not of "yourselves".
Yes, it's interesting Penny that all Christians believe in "salvation by grace". Some believe that saving grace is given only to sinners chosen by God and that this grace is irresistible, resulting in the salvation of all for whom it is intended. Others believe in prevenient grace, whereby the Spirit of God enables all men to receive Christ, to choose Christ and thus be saved, but there is no guarantee that they will, in fact most don't.
Yes bro, John Gill had much knowledge but was extremist par excellent.
1 Peter 1:18-25 KJV (18) Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; (19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (21) Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. (22) Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: (23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (24) For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: (25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
John UK wrote: Also, 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV (18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. Faith in Christ Jesus crucified and we ARE saved. It is a present possession. I don't know where Lurker is going with this.
John UK I don't either, but I can speak to where those you might call hyper-Calvinists have gone with it, things are of course way beyond the (modified) Calvinism of Spurgeon and Whitefield
They separate regeneration and salvation in order to wrongly put regeneration (the new birth) before and completely independant of repentance and faith, to give preeminence to election/predestination
This allows them to avoid, excuse themselves from the Great Commission
like the attitude express to William Carey: When John Ryland Sr. called William Carey â€śa miserable enthusiastâ€ť and told him, to sit down that God â€śwould save the heathen without your help or mine,â€ť he reflected the hyper-Calvinism of John Gill, who set forth his position in numerous works and prided himself on never extending an invitation for a sinner to trust Christ during his entire London pastorate of more than 50 years.
James Thomas wrote: John, I do thank you for your response and your questions. When a difference of view on a topic occurs from my own I see it as an opportunity to learn as it pushes me to think.
James, I am right with you on this. I have learnt a great deal through debate and being forced to think. As Bible students, we are bound to reach conclusions, even though they might be wrong.
Your request for a verse... Luke 1:5-6 KJV (5) There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. (6) And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
I sometimes wonder if we focus so much on sin, that we imagine ourselves still sinners rather than saints.
Perfection? 1 Corinthians 2:6 KJV (6) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought.
Philippians 3:12 KJV (12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
re branding slavery and blaming the ill and infirm for existing, we can just move all "lazy good for nothings" to a tent on the other side of "The Beach" so we don't have to hear them screaming in agony crying for mom, then just call them lazy good for nothings and carry on ... I got mine go f*** yourself mentality ...
so because some people game the system, you are too lazy to weed out the needy from the greedy, God will be "lazy" back at ya~!
Vast majority of food stamp recipients work for, wal mart, mc donalds, 2 out of 3 food stamp recipients are children so starve them children~! starve them~! they deserve it for having lousy fail parents who can't earn~! starve them~!
if they got rid of all the bureaucrats and sent the money straight to the recipients they would get 70 to 100k a year, but we got chair moisteners in sector C whom need the job and medical and retirement and do nothing all day but post on reddit and surf the web at work making 70 to 100k a year, and gripe and slander their "clients" the poor who apply for aide ....
lets drug test them~!! yeah ... they have no medical and have to beg for pain killers on the street to endure the agony dying by degrees with no help, they can starve their children too~!
the "organized" church has stood by and watched the "freedom fighters" wipe out Syrian and Iraqi Christians. They have promoted destroying the regimes that were protective. And because it would look bad to criticize, has remained silent. now her own borders are open and they have not learned how globalism works to disrupt societies to acquire power, resources, etc. Even now they rest in the fact that they have promoted these wars to get Jesus to rapture them, even as their own country has lost its way. The love of the brethren waxed cold, as believers faced their beheadings and wanderings in foreign lands. May Christ have mercy on us.
My response was simply to your assertion here: "I cannot see that God would tell us to walk worthy, and then because he has foreordained us to backslide, he then chastises us, which chastisement can be very painful."
This is the same "I cant see" scenario "US" kept repeating which Scripture speaks clearly that God does foreordain their failure to follow His commands. He knew Israel would not follow the law when giving the law.
The flesh and the spirit are at war. Who wins? The flesh? At death The spirit, now flesh wins every time I sin. BUT I HATE IT. ROMANS 7 EXPLAINS THIS GREAT.
We are not and cant be perfect until death, that's why, 1 Thess 4:3 The will of God for us is Sanctification. Not perfection YET! If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (1 John 1:8)
Did God say some in Israel were perfect? Aye. Help with a Scripture here.
How do we tell between the children of the devil and the children of God from the NT record? Do you hate the sin you once loved, if so, then he who begun a work in you will finish.
John, I do thank you for your response and your questions. When a difference of view on a topic occurs from my own I see it as an opportunity to learn as it pushes me to think.