Jessica Dawson wrote: Think not of the doctrines of men, embrace Christ Jesus and The Holy Scriptures â€” then if a man's doctrine matches your doctrine, it will be because their doctrine is in line with The Scriptures, and is according to God's will through The Lord Christ Jesus. 1 John 2:27
John UK wrote: It's all a bit beyond me bro. But I would think that if Paul had died just after his baptism, he would have gone straight to heaven. But you say he was not saved yet? p.s. I think it unwise to refer to regeneration as it is hardly mentioned in scripture, compared to the use it gets here, i.e. regenerate/unregenerate.
I say it because Paul wrote it... not only of himself but of all he was writing to. And your surprise should tell you something about the meaning you've attached to the word "saved".
These sticky little details all require a scriptural answer to be able to comprehend what was going on at that exact time and refusing to deal with them doesn't make them go away. Romans 13:11 is every bit as much the truth of God as any other verse and it is our responsibility to God to deal with it. If we fail to do that then what differentiates us from those who cherry pick and prooftext to shore up their pet doctrines while ignoring everything which proves them faulty? The bible is an organic whole, not a collection of disjointed parts, and no part of it can be left out and still represent the picture God originally portrayed.
Think not of the doctrines of men, embrace Christ Jesus and The Holy Scriptures â€” then if a man's doctrine matches your doctrine, it will be because their doctrine is in line with The Scriptures, and is according to God's will through The Lord Christ Jesus.
Christopher000 wrote: Oh boy. Before anyone condems me for saying how horrific this is and I should be glad they suffered for Christ, etc, like as what's happened in the past, I'd like to take note of the pain, suffering, and emotional anguish that these people endured. Just imagine being scorned and beaten. Just imagine being told you are going to be crucified alive and the emotional exhaustion as the day approaches and finally arrives. Imagine the human fear as the cell door opens and you're led to the slaughter. You see the cross of wood laying on the ground and you scream in horror as they force you down onto it and secure your hands and legs. Then, fully conscious, hammers begin pounding nails through your flesh as.you scream from pain you never thought possible. The nails are in but the screaming intensifies as the cross is raised and the nails stretch the flesh and bones. Yikes. I always think about what Christ must have endured but I can't really grasp it. These people went to their deaths in triumph; refusing to renounce Christ and I wonder how many would remain that strong in todays church.
Lurker wrote: Sorry for any confusion, John. I'll try to explain. .... .... When Paul penned this letter he was a believer, had been regenerated according to God's promise in Deut 30:6, received the Holy Spirit at the hand on Ananias but he was not yet saved.
It's all a bit beyond me bro. But I would think that if Paul had died just after his baptism, he would have gone straight to heaven. But you say he was not saved yet?
p.s. I think it unwise to refer to regeneration as it is hardly mentioned in scripture, compared to the use it gets here, i.e. regenerate/unregenerate.
John UK wrote: Faith in Christ Jesus crucified and we ARE saved. It is a present possession. I don't know where Lurker is going with this.
Sorry for any confusion, John. I'll try to explain.
J4J was attempting to prove that his faith was his own by equating regeneration with salvation. I said there was no biblical warrant to do so, that they are completely separate terms with separate meanings and Michael popped in and launched a verse to prove I was wrong. To defend my assertion I quoted the following:
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
When Paul penned this letter he was a believer, had been regenerated according to God's promise in Deut 30:6, received the Holy Spirit at the hand on Ananias but he was not yet saved. Further, I gave the reason why Paul was not yet saved, when he actually was saved, what he was saved from and the reason why. I went on to say that salvation was immediate once the day of salvation aka the accepted time had commenced. See 2 Cor 6:2 cf. Isaiah 49:8.
I could write a book about all the prophecies which came to pass beginning with Paul's calling on Damascus Road. I'm amazed they go unnoticed by so many.
Great Sermon! Thank you for a wonderful sermon. We have been studying Moses (Exodus)in our Bible study group; and this sermon helped pull all of the scripture together into an understandable lesson!
Ladybug... I didn't mean to address you in that post, but I am glad you are willing to talk about it. I wasn't trying to nullify regeneration by quoting 1 Tim 1:16. Paul's pattern of believing on Jesus for eternal life is our pattern. For eternal life, we must first believe.
Ephesians 1:13 NKJV
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
How did they believe? Certainly not because the Spirit was in them, making them. He doesn't seal any before faith. How did they hear? Through the preaching of the gospel which was sent by God. I am not plucking verses out of context. Paul himself said the Corinthians were not accepting the things of God, although they were believers. What would be the point of God giving faith to the natural person anyway? According to you, they wouldn't be able to use it anyways! If I give a baby a car to drive and they don't know how to use it and can't operate it, what would be the point? If I'm the one driving them around in it, they can't be credited with driving it themselves.
The prison industry wouldn't want to lose the slave labor. What good are fathers in the inner city anyways? God had a lot to say about banning substances but nothing to say about the importance of fathers in the home.
penny wrote: John UK, well, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that. Like I said about the mechanics of the eye, it is a great mystery to me, and so I don't know that I would win points in anyone's court. But in the end our salvation is of the Lord, and so I have no claim rights on my salvation. God opened my eyes, helpless to see as I was. I do believe man has a will too and does terrible evil as you and Unprofitable Servant have been discussing. Is it alright that there be some mystery and awe to salvation? I'm off for now, so good day.
Penny, I believe there is a great deal of mystery and awe about the salvation of any sinner. It is a most wonderful thing, and not to be lightly spoken of. Some talk as if it were no more than like joining a golf club.
Yes, there is a holy atmosphere whenever one is convicted of their sins by the Almighty God (Spirit). It is none other than a visitation from GOD. Why does he come? He comes to save, to deliver from sin and death and hell. He applies the awesome redemptive blood of the Lamb to our lost estate, washing us clean and giving us Christ's righteousness, gifting us eternal life through his Son.
It is an amazing work of God to turn us around, that we might serve HIM.
Pennned... Sorry, a few post ago I addressed ladybug when I ment it for you.
As far as Ephesians 2:8:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Do you really believe the translation is that wrong and should actually read this way?
For by grace you have faith through being saved, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
It seems to me that in the real God breathed verse, being saved is the topic. His grace is why we have been saved and through faith is the means by which we receive His salvation. Anybody who has been saved, it is a gift of God given to us because of His grace and through our faith.
Michael, I jusy noticed the sermon above..."You shall have no other gods". Will give it a listen later. I'm glad.you identify yourself because I have a feeling there are other pastors who comment on the forum but remain anonymous (which is their perogative, of course).
J4J, As for 1 Timothy 1:16, that verse in no way nullifies regeneration. What was Paul addressing? He was speaking of his conversion- this is his 'testimony'. You have to read the verses prior to and immediately following to get the context. He tells us he was the chief of sinners, but he obtained mercy. Go back to Acts and the road to Damascus to see how God converted Paul. Paul believed immediately AFTER the Lord brought him to Himself and regenerated him. 'They heard, believed, and were sealed' - how were they able to hear? Who opened those deaf ears? Can you believe apart from being born again? What did Jesus tell Nicodemus, who was a religious leader and believed? Why did Christ tell him you have to be born again? Why does God say we are dead in sin until quickened, or made alive, by Him?
I've asked before, but you never answered. What makes your faith genuine? One final question, God says we are unable to receive spiritual truths in our natural state, yet you keep plucking verses out of context and force them to say something they do not and God does not say - that we can believe in our natural state. You refuse to believe the truth because it exposes your faulty theology. How is one 'in Christ'? By being born from above and gifted with faith!
Penned, good post and helps me to really see what's going on here. All I see is how evil they are that do these things and so your posts can be an eye opener in what's going on behind the scenes. Like Phil Harvey used to say, "now you know the rest of the story." Christropher, you should have been a writer because you take us to the heart of the matter and we get an insight into the pain and suffering of it all. The rejoicing comes in knowing they are now with their Saviour. Death, Jesus said, was the last enemy to be destroyed by His own death. You know, we are not facing this yet but we do we will be given the strengh and grace to face it and be at peace. We have not been given the strenght today for tomorrow's pain and troubles. When I faced cancer surgery, I had a peace that settled over me that I was going to get through this and God was there with me. If I died, I was going to be with Him but I felt I was going to live, He still had a work for me to do. That was July27,2004. Had I been told in 2000 that I was going to be facing cancer in 2004, I would have been frightened wondering about what all I would have to go through. I still had some anxiety at every check-up but that's normal reaction and I never lost that peace.
John UK, well, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on that. Like I said about the mechanics of the eye, it is a great mystery to me, and so I don't know that I would win points in anyone's court. But in the end our salvation is of the Lord, and so I have no claim rights on my salvation. God opened my eyes, helpless to see as I was. I do believe man has a will too and does terrible evil as you and Unprofitable Servant have been discussing. Is it alright that there be some mystery and awe to salvation? I'm off for now, so good day.